Thread: Carl Gustav Jung - Videos, Books, Ruminations

Originally Posted by slash112

And btw, that bloody book! I really need to read it hahah, it's a must-read.

I screwed up and accidentally posted a link to the book The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep where I meant to post a video.

I've fixed it now though.

Aha I think I've watched that video before. Watched it again anyways. Yeah that's a good one.

By the way I just want to be clear about something. I'm not a guru (not yet anyways).

You can trust a guru. You can't trust me. I don't have much experience leading people through my stages, so I have not had the opportunity yet to perfect my craft.

I consider myself a guide. You can use me, but don't trust me. Trust the ones that have already improved the lives of the many. They are the ones who actually know for certain what's best.
I must build my "trustability" over the course of many years of guiding people.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

LeaningKarst - any hints on what to look for? Terms or something, so people can try to find the information? I definitely can't go to Tibet or India and take a lengthy retreat, or work with a guru. I'm hoping the info is available online or in books or something. Understanding these techniques would sure take a lot of the stress and fear out of it!

It seems like the difference between learning to drive by crashing a car repeatedly, versus taking a Drivers Ed class.

I’m a bit pressed for time right now, so it might be a day or two before I get back with a more detailed response. But the big, obvious one is silent sitting meditation. Shi-nè in Tibetan, zazen in Japanese, samatha in Sanskrit (although I think that one also encompasses other kinds of meditation as well). In any case, you want the one that doesn’t have any sort of object of concentration—just as basic as it gets.

You mentioned binaural beat meditation, which I don’t have any experience with myself. The websites about it that I’ve just glanced through promise all kinds of positive results, and I couldn’t really tell if it’s supposed to be like an accelerated version of silent sitting meditation or something else altogether—but if it is something else, it definitely wouldn’t hurt to do just plain silent sitting as well.

LeaningKarst - thank you - I'll look into those forms of meditation. I have done silent meditation before, just clearing the mind and allowing thoughts and feelings to rise up and pass without becoming attached to them, just observing and focusing on the breath. The binaurals take me much deeper, and yes supposedly they give the effect of having done years of meditation - I don't know how true those claims are but they sure make me feel amazing. I think I'll do binaural and then when the track ends just sit and meditate quietly. I might also start doing kundalini yoga again, but need to take it easy - I've always had back issues, and when I did it before it started to mess me up. But now I know, and just need to find my limits and not exceed them.

Looking forward to anything else you post on the subject!

Wow - I just clicked on the link in your sig. Looks excellent - I plan to look into it more.

Red Book part 8 - Experiences in the Desert.

These are Jung's journal entries about his Active Imagination sessions:

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

thank you - I'll look into those forms of meditation. I have done silent meditation before, just clearing the mind and allowing thoughts and feelings to rise up and pass without becoming attached to them, just observing and focusing on the breath. The binaurals take me much deeper, and yes supposedly they give the effect of having done years of meditation - I don't know how true those claims are but they sure make me feel amazing.

Still no time to look further into binaural beats – but the reason I suspect it’s something significantly different is that the benefit of silent sitting meditation, as I learned it, does not come from achieving a certain state. It comes from the practice you get remaining unattached to your own thoughts. It's that practice that gives you that extra bit of awareness available the next time something hits you when you’re out living your life. It sounds like the binaural version could be helpful in that it gives you a taste of what it’s like to have been through the hard part, and gives the assurance that it is possible—but something that accelerates you through the hard part may be less helpful in the long run. To use an analogy - if you're learning to play a chord on a guitar, you want to get lots of practice finding the right fingering, not just practice playing the chord, because that's what's going to help once you're playing a song.

But being able to achieve a stable state without thoughts is also a jumping-off point for other practices, and it could be that that that sort of experience would give a head start there - but it's hard to understand how these things all fit together without actually trying it out.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Wow - I just clicked on the link in your sig. Looks excellent - I plan to look into it more.

You found my blog. Some of the older stuff really needs to be rewritten by now, but I hope you’ll find something there of interest.

Well that makes perfect sense! I'll do it in silence then. You do still need to clear the chatter when using the beats, but I suppose it's easier when listening to something (there's meditation music along with the tones). But I also realized - if the idea is to not rush into it, why am I using something that accelerates the process?!

And wow! Your blog is amazing. A fascinating mix of dreaming self-exploration and philosophy, peppered with the thoughts of historical philosophers as well as your own. I was reading for a few hours the other night, and I'll be visiting again.

Another Buddhist thing you may be interested in looking at, Darkmatters, is the Noble Eightfold Path.

1) Right understanding
2) Right thought
3) Right speech
4) Right action
5) Right livelyhood
6) Right effort
7) Right mindfulness
8) Right concentration

These are to be worked on simultaneously, not one after the other or whatever.
It allows you to develop ethics, mental discipline and wisdom.

The mental discipline part is what keeps you stable.

The way I see it, all 8 of these things can be considered "actions". In the list, "action" refers to things you actually do with your body, but I see action as anything you do at all, including thought processes. So really, it's all about doing things right. Such a thing requires a high level of self-awareness. It requires you to be aware of what you are doing and what effect it has on the world and on yourself.

Even though I primarily practice Vedanta, I keep this Buddhist concept in my mind as a way to keep me in check.

Thanks for reminding me of the Eightfold Path - I read about it some time ago in a Buddhism book, but had forgotten. Yeah, it does sound like a good grounding practice.

The good news is - I already have a head start on these practices thanks to a few year's worth of Stoicism - they're very nearly the same. There's also a lot of overlap with the Eightfold Path.

The Red Book by C.G. Jung – Part 9 – “Descent into Hell in the Future” - Part 1

In this, as in the previous passages, Dr. Jung is undergoing an active imagination between his Ego and his Soul (personal God-Image).

00:12—December 12, 1913--
00:46—“One must give one’s heart to men, but one’s intellect to the spirit of humanity, God.”
01:23—“Descent into Hell in the Future”
04:28—“I see the bloody head on the dark stream.”
06:32—“Though I could not then grasp the significance of the Hero killed, soon after I had a dream in which Siegfried was killed by myself.”
07:43—“I am still a victim of my thinking.”
08:37—“Keep it far from me, science that clever knower.”

Those active imagination videos are cool! I see what it is now. I just looked it up too.

Active imagination is exactly what is used in clairvoyance (and I suppose the other clairs).
I have been toying with it for a while now, but it's actually a lot harder than meets the eye. I've only been able to have very vague conversations with my unconscious. I tend to get a bit frustrated because I'll ask a question and not get a response. Or the response is just so vague or delayed that I'm like "wtf man".
It's weird that I'm rubbish at it, because I have a good imagination, and I can ask my intuition anything and get a fairly good answer outta nowhere. These are essentially the two elements involved in active imagination, but I haven't been able to put them together very well.

It makes a whole lot more natural sense when you look at it from this Jungian perspective.
Right now I'm thinking, I should open a Word document and do this. It does require a meditative state, but I can remain meditative whilst typing.
I think I'll try tomorrow.

It is hard sometimes, but it works best if you can get yourself into the stage just before sleep, when you can witness dream images beginning to form. As with many lucid dreaming techniques, best done after some sleep, or in the morning - just lie still and let yourself start to drift off again. Sometimes I can keep myself aware as the images form, and when I do I can have powerful and vivid AI's. The danger is you can just fall asleep.

If I'm not that close to the sleep state I can have much less vivid ones, or sometimes just conversations, and at times I need to carry it by force - as in no images and no voices, but I keep the story going by mentally describing it to myself, until an image forms again or I get a voice in response. At these times the images are very crude, often just still pictures, and even extremely low-res, I mean like sometimes I just see a block of faint color and after a while it changes to a different color - but sometimes it will become something like a crude figure in a pose, and just remain for a while, and maybe I can get a faint voice for a while, or spotty conversation. But if you can catch hypnagogia and remain aware, then you get full vivid dream-level stuff - it's basically WILDing into something like a lucid dream, but you're not really asleep - you catch yourself just on the edge of it.

The way I've found is to watch the moving colors and shapes behind your eyelids until they start getting more intense and form into pictures - then you're getting very close. Soon you'll feel yourself beginning to fall asleep and a dreamlet will form and start moving. At this point I get slightly excited and don't actually fall asleep. Then you can interact with it - though probably you should remain still and wait for a little while. I probably interact a bit too soon, because I'm afraid if I wait I'll fall asleep.

I suspect that sometimes Jung and other practitioners would be doing this and end up falling into a WILD rather than actual AI. Hey, still cool - and basically the same thing! Fail at AI, end up in a WILD!

I want to say you should prepare an idea - who you want to talk to and about what - but so far I've found random things form and then you just need to wing it. I tried to change a figure into a different one but wasn't successful, but a better lucid dreamer could probably do it. Still probably a good idea to think deeply about what you want to imagine, maybe write about it in your journal or whatever you do to try to incubate a dream. But you might end up with something different, so just try to make the best of whatever you get.

Oh and I also used to find mowing the lawn was a great time for the conversations - I call them imaginal dialogues. Simple repetitive work that you can do on autopilot, and in the case of mowing the lawn, you can't be listening to music because the mower drowns it out. So the only thing to do literally is to think. Walking is also good, especially after dark when there's less distractions, neighbors don't want to talk to you etc.

I tend to get a bit frustrated because I'll ask a question and not get a response. Or the response is just so vague or delayed that I'm like "wtf man".

I find sometimes I need to ask a question several times, and I'll change the wording. Drop it into simple yes-or-no form, that will usually get an answer. Or if you get a very vague response or you can't tell if you just imagined it (!?! ) try working around it with several questions. Example "Is it (option A) - yes or no?" vague indistinguishable answer. "Is it (option B) - yes or no?" fairly strong yes. "It's option B?" faint yes. "Is it option a?" Nothing. So there you have a weak 'option B', but repeated several times.

You know what - this covers what I was going to write (already partially wrote) about how to do AI - and it flows better the way I wrote it here. I think this will serve as the how-to post. More stripped down than my usual essay style.

Awesome post man! Thanks for that!

I've noticed many times that my imagination turns into an almost-dream when I'm in that half-sleepy stage. But I can't remember if it happens at night or if it's like a WILD in that you need to be in the middle of a REM cycle. Either way, I'm trying this tonight!

Sometimes I can do it at night when I first go to bed. But I think it's only on days when as I like to call it my head is already bubbling over with REM before I even get in bed. On those days I feel very dreamlike for maybe an hour or several before going to bed, and my brain seems to be already spilling out stories and images, which become very noticeable as soon as I lay down and close my eyes. I mean it sometimes is overwhelming, as if it's trying to catch up on lost REM or something - not sure if everybody gets this?

I had it last night, was extremely sleepy, and kept getting dreamlets within minutes of closing my eyes, but each time I would wake completely as soon as I noticed them. I call them by the technical term dreamlets, because apparently hypnagogia is either when you're waking up or when you're falling asleep (waking I think), and there's another term that I can never remember for the other one - too much mumbo-jumbo! Also hypnagogia is a mouthful and hard to pronounce - so I just say dreamlets.

I don't know if I woke each time because I was too excited, or maybe this state is rather fragile? But the dreamlet ended immediately each time I noticed it. I had at least half a dozen before falling asleep though, and several more on waking, followed by falling back asleep and having a very meaningful dream, whose meaning didn't become apparent until I jotted down notes. Now I wish I had jotted down each dreamlet, because I can't remember them, though I do remember wanting to remember one because it was very unusual and indicated something seemingly important to me about dreamlets - something that surprised me and that I thought I would surely REM-ember. (I seem to remember thinking it meant that it's important with dreamlets to pay attention to the feelings and atmosphere.)

Pre-prep for Spiritual Awakening:

I've seen a lot of videos lately about this, and apparently it's important to eat healthy - they often say vegetarian - and exercise. I've been doing both for a few years. Not vegetarian, but I do intermittent fasting and have cut out gluten, sugar, and dairy (unless you count eggs as dairy) and also cut out most commercially processed foods - meaning I buy whole foods (meat and veggies) and cook everything myself. No soy. Every now and then though I'll hit up McDonald's or Taco Bell or something - in fact for a while recently I was doing it a lot, but now I'm back on the clean diet aside from occasional splurges. Was eating all organic and grassfed for a few years, but can't afford it just now.

For exercise I've been doing weightlifting and over the last 6 months or so I added in some rings work - static hangs mostly. But just recently I had to really lay off the weights and in fact all exercise for 2 weeks now thanks to an injury. Could be my body telling me I need to balance out? Less strength training and maybe something like yoga instead? I remember hearing that yoga raises your energy level (physical energy as well as otherwise), and weightlifting depresses it - they said you shouldn't lift weights (at least heavy) unless you have a great deal of energy to begin with. If you don't, you should be doing yoga or calisthenics. I was lifting largely to build some strength and help with weight loss (which is complete now) and I think it's time to switch. Maybe keep in some light lifting for now, see how that goes.

But my main point is this - I keep discovering that the things I've already been doing for years now are the right things to prepare for a spiritual awakening. Not sure if synchronicity, or just that taking care of the body is a part of it, and at my age it all becomes necessary. Mid 50's now, and had symptoms of pre-diabetes a few years ago along with a few digestive problems, which I've completely gotten rid of through diet and exercise.

From what I know about Jung I think this is a very natural turn for this thread to take eventually.. I have been working my way through the first couple of pages of this thread in the last days. But I jumped ahead a bit to join the action...

Important to be healthy! But I wouldn't worry about McDonalds hindering your enlightenment. In fact. The idea that it possibly could is a much larger hinderance. In most cases enlightenment can only come once you feel like you've earned it. Which is why, once they set their minds to it, lazy people, and especially those who are also used to having everything come to them, wake up much faster and with a fraction of the effort Maybe thats why Siddharta was a prince....idk

Edit: I don't have confidence in my ability to communicate well on these topics through any other form than music. So I'll just strongly recommend listening to some full lectures by Alan Watts. I haven't found anyone who could get these things across better. I would say he is a poet who writes in the style of a philosopher with a background as a scholar of religion at which he was considered one of the foremost authorities in his time...

lazy people, and especially those who are also used to having everything come to them, wake up much faster and with a fraction of the effort. Maybe thats why Siddharta was a prince....idk

Countering that idea:



Also it's easy to be flippant about McDonald's and other factory processed food loaded down with today's modified super-gluten and other poisons when you're young. Wait till you hit midlife - it will catch up to you. You'll be sick, overweight, and suffering from a host of possible different digestive tract disorders plus diabetes and heart disease. The factory-processed food inevitably does this, and if you're one of the lucky ones you can learn about it online, if you aren't too devastated by the initial wave of problems that it presents with. If you're not lucky you'll end up in a series of hospitals and doctor's offices being prescribed expensive mediations that are even more poisonous than the food that got you here in the first place. When in reality all you really need is some education about proper nutrition and exercise - something nobody gets in today's society and that doctors won't provide unless they're specialists in whole food nutrition. With your body so screwed up and an endless litany of visits to testing facilities and hospitals for treatment, I suspect it would be pretty hard to find the peace of mind necessary for spiritual awakening.

Red Book part 10 - "Descent into Hell in the Future" part 2:

In this, as in the previous passages, Dr. Jung is undergoing an active imagination between his Ego and his Soul (personal God-Image).

00:16—P. 149—Divine Madness
00:43—The theme of Divine Madness has a long history.
01:05—Socrates distinguished 4 types of Divine Madness.
11:54—“We create the Meaning of Events. The Meaning is and always was artificial. We make it.”
12:25—“The Meaning of Events is the Way of Salvation that you create.”

It's a good video, but on a different subject really, so there is a misunderstanding of what I was saying it seems (why I don't talk about this stuff much).

What I am talking about has absolutely nothing to do with dealing with life, in any practical way. It's not advice. It's a fact. It's not about going with the flow/universe vs micromanaging. And I am not at all saying that to be spiritual you need to stop taking care of your stuff and just let it roll. It's a fact about one of the traps that can keep you held up for a long time.

What I am saying is that: Waking up is something that people feel like they need to earn, and it should preferably be REALLY, REALLY hard to do so. Because it is misunderstood to be something that will put you ahead of the game. And everything that puts you in a better position, you have to earn right?

People wake up when they are ready to wake up. The reason lazy some times does it faster is just because they feel like they earned it a lot sooner. "I've been meditating several times a week for 2 months, and I read this whole book... enlightenment must be right around the corner!" and poof.

Edit: and absolutely. I'm all for healthy living and eating. I try to be healthy myself.

Originally Posted by LighrkVader

People wake up when they are ready to wake up. The reason lazy some times does it faster is just because they feel like they earned it a lot sooner. "I've been meditating several times a week for 2 months, and I read this whole book... enlightenment must be right around the corner!" and poof.

Oh ok, I do get that - I've heard the same in many videos.

Originally Posted by LighrkVader

People wake up when they are ready to wake up. The reason lazy some times does it faster is just because they feel like they earned it a lot sooner. "I've been meditating several times a week for 2 months, and I read this whole book... enlightenment must be right around the corner!" and poof.

Oh ok, I do get that - I've heard the same in many videos.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well that makes perfect sense! I'll do it in silence then. You do still need to clear the chatter when using the beats, but I suppose it's easier when listening to something (there's meditation music along with the tones). But I also realized - if the idea is to not rush into it, why am I using something that accelerates the process?!

And wow! Your blog is amazing. A fascinating mix of dreaming self-exploration and philosophy, peppered with the thoughts of historical philosophers as well as your own. I was reading for a few hours the other night, and I'll be visiting again.

This thread is moving too fast for me to keep up!

And, naturally, the idea with meditation is that you shouldn't have some particular result in mind while doing it - which can be a bit of a balancing act, since we do have our reasons for practicing it.

I'm glad you're enjoying my blog. I'm still not sure whether spending so long on philosophy was the best use of my time. But I did because I found it fascinating, and that's got to count for something.