Thread: Freedom

To be free means to be not dependent upon.

We are free from something iff we don't change when that something changes.

It quite simply means you are not trapped.

But since we are all trapped in one way or another, it means you perceive your trap to be less consctricting than whatever trap you are comparing it with.
Whether your trap is REALLY any better is hard to say, as manipulation and acclimation(in lack of a better word) are key principles here.

I guess what matters to me is being free from that 9 to 5 working lifestyle and remaining that way. Providing me with more time to do that which i enjoy.

I wouldn't consider myself totally free. And i often wonder if anyone is or if anyone really wants it. Free from the confines of self. Our deepest desires, fears, our identity, our past, freedom from expectations.

To me, in daily usage of the word, being free means to not be ruled by anyone (by which I refer to human beings). Freedom means living without having to obey some person or group of persons.

In a broader sense, being free, to me means being unconstrained, which, again to me, essentially means being God. Or maybe not even God is unconstrained, in which case complete freedom does not exist other than as a vaguely perceived idea; an ideal state of being.

The Lesser Freedom: Freedom from Others.

The Greater Freedom: Freedom from Self.

What truly is the difference between a tyrant dictating that one behaves in a certain manner and an addiction or physical desire dictating one's actions??

Originally Posted by LabyrinthDreams

The Lesser Freedom: Freedom from Others.

The Greater Freedom: Freedom from Self.

What truly is the difference between a tyrant dictating that one behaves in a certain manner and an addiction or physical desire dictating one's actions??

Not much in most cases as they are of the mind. Who creates a tyrant dictator? Who establishes an addiction? Who is possessed by physical desires? Who or what creates you?

To be free from all limitations. The mind is limitless and is the true form of expression in this life. I desire to completely express myself without losing any sense of authenticity. Everything I feel I can not do in life is an illusion that can be eliminated. That is true freedom. To reach the highest level in myself.

Originally Posted by Yumnش

To be free from all limitations. The mind is limitless and is the true form of expression in this life. I desire to completely express myself without losing any sense of authenticity. Everything I feel I can not do in life is an illusion that can be eliminated. That is true freedom. To reach the highest level in myself.

If the mind is limitless, why can't I do mental math without switching numbers around or have difficulty forgetting words of objects and people's names?

Freedom, if defined as without restriction, limits, or boundaries is by definition impossible for anything that exists to actually be. To exist is to be subject to something. Nothing is beyond limitation, restriction, boundaries, or change. If you take that statement literally, nothing itself is the only thing that is absolutely free, and nothing is no-thing (therefore not actually "a" thing), so logically, therefore, absolute freedom does not exist.

^^ So, given that, our only course for true freedom is death?

That sort of makes sense. Or maybe perfect freedom resides in ascension -- a movement of our conscious selves to a condition that is completely separate from the laws of physical reality; basically a movement toward being no thing at all... of course, that ascension might need to include death to be possible....

As long as we are moving in the direction of more freedom, we're moving in a good direction. So what, if it takes all eternity and then some, to actually arrive. Just enjoy the ride!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ So, given that, our only course for true freedom is death?

I suppose so. With my last post I wasn't so much trying to imply anything about how to attain freedom so much as I was pointing out that the definition everyone seems to agree on here axiomatically rejects the possibility of one ever consciously experiencing the state of freedom... or that there could even be such a thing as a "state" of freedom because states of existence arise through a given system undergoing change, which as a process is dependent on the interaction between the components making up that system and their being subject to the various natural laws to initiate and facilitate these interactions.

I'm not denying the possibility of forms of existence beyond physical forms of matter and energy, but as long as our conscious experience is bound to interactions between things in the material world, true/absolute freedom is not possible to ever achieve. There only exist relative degrees of freedom, and in the context of this discussion in particular (or at least the question of what it means to be free) it would almost seem to contradict the entire idea of freedom entirely to impose restrictions on the degrees of freedom one is capable of experiencing. It's only useful to conceptualize the various ways and degrees that someone or something might be free as a pragmatic solution to real-world daily life practical applications, like trying to communicate certain ideas to others.

Originally Posted by snoop

If the mind is limitless, why can't I do mental math without switching numbers around or have difficulty forgetting words of objects and people's names?

Freedom, if defined as without restriction, limits, or boundaries is by definition impossible for anything that exists to actually be. To exist is to be subject to something. Nothing is beyond limitation, restriction, boundaries, or change. If you take that statement literally, nothing itself is the only thing that is absolutely free, and nothing is no-thing (therefore not actually "a" thing), so logically, therefore, absolute freedom does not exist.

The above you mention is possible to do mentally. You specifically aren't capable of it. That does not mean someone out there in this world with a different mind compare to yours isn't capable of that feat. That's the little riddle that a lot of people get stuck on. What is nothing cause even nothing is something. There is no such thing as limitations as if there was , there would be no such thing as improvement over one's ideal limit. Freedom does exist, as nothing is what it is set to be. All things can be manipulated from its original design.

Originally Posted by Yumnش

The above you mention is possible to do mentally. You specifically aren't capable of it. That does not mean someone out there in this world with a different mind compare to yours isn't capable of that feat. That's the little riddle that a lot of people get stuck on. What is nothing cause even nothing is something. There is no such thing as limitations as if there was , there would be no such thing as improvement over one's ideal limit. Freedom does exist, as nothing is what it is set to be. All things can be manipulated from its original design.

Honestly I'm having a hard time following most of what you said. Sorry to be so blunt, but your response is almost entirely made up of non-sequiturs. It doesn't follow that being capable of overcoming a given limitation means that one is therefore beyond all limitation. When it comes to somebody out there being capable of something I'm not, it also doesn't follow that they are therefore beyond all limitations, I think you'd be hard pressed to find me an actual example or reasonable explanation for how anyone possessing consciousness, awareness, and intelligence is beyond perceiving reality through a means other than symbolic representation, and therefore, restricted to dualistic perceptions, interpretations, and understandings of it.

The very fact that something can be modified means that it is inherently not already what it is being modified to, meaning it was previously restricted to a specific form of existence. Subsequently, by that same token, the new modified form it has taken becomes the new shape or manner it is restricted to being until being modified once again. That is a limitation, plain and simple; this isn't debatable.

Rather than try and explain your ideas in such broad and generalized non-specific terms, provide me with specific examples of things being beyond limitation and I can almost guarantee you with absolute certainty I will be able to point out some aspect of its existence that is subject to limitation, restriction, or boundaries.

Originally Posted by snoop

Honestly I'm having a hard time following most of what you said. Sorry to be so blunt, but your response is almost entirely made up of non-sequiturs. It doesn't follow that being capable of overcoming a given limitation means that one is therefore beyond all limitation. When it comes to somebody out there being capable of something I'm not, it also doesn't follow that they are therefore beyond all limitations, I think you'd be hard pressed to find me an actual example or reasonable explanation for how anyone possessing consciousness, awareness, and intelligence is beyond perceiving reality through a means other than symbolic representation, and therefore, restricted to dualistic perceptions, interpretations, and understandings of it.

The very fact that something can be modified means that it is inherently not already what it is being modified to, meaning it was previously restricted to a specific form of existence. Subsequently, by that same token, the new modified form it has taken becomes the new shape or manner it is restricted to being until being modified once again. That is a limitation, plain and simple; this isn't debatable.

Rather than try and explain your ideas in such broad and generalized non-specific terms, provide me with specific examples of things being beyond limitation and I can almost guarantee you with absolute certainty I will be able to point out some aspect of its existence that is subject to limitation, restriction, or boundaries.

Hey there again. I see you have had trouble with what I mention in my previous statement. I am by no means trying to make you believe in what I am saying. Infact you can reduce everything I mention as a complete lie made up from my own imagination. I never came to have a discussion. I only was interested in this thread because complete freedom is my personal goal in the end of my life.

As for your last statement I can guarantee you that you would be unable to pinpoint any flaws or even comprehend any experience that would be consider supernatural by ordinary limitations. The problem is your way of comprehending or perceiving. Logic is simply one universal way of understanding life itself. It's not the only one and logic is not going to be able to explain all of experiences with in this existence. Think of science as the tool of logic, it's only one language in life. You must relearn how to use your brain, relearn what you have been taught of all you "Think" you know.

My personal quote is " One who admits to knowing nothing is open to experience all things in life" Have a good day snoop its been nice talking to you.

Originally Posted by Yumnش

To be free from all limitations. The mind is limitless and is the true form of expression in this life.

How do you know that? (I'm not saying it's not true. Just wondering what convinced you of it.)

Originally Posted by Yumnش

I desire to completely express myself without losing any sense of authenticity.

What form would that take in your life if you were to achieve that desire? How would you express yourself? And to whom would you express yourself, if anyone?

Originally Posted by Yumnش

Everything I feel I can not do in life is an illusion that can be eliminated. That is true freedom. To reach the highest level in myself.

How can we get past that illusion?

The only place I feel truly free is in my mind. But even there, there are boundaries that need to be seen beyond, to become even more free. To me, it's a forever ongoing process of development, of becoming more and more free.

Wow! Such a deep conversation!

To be free means to be not dependent upon.
We are free from something if we don't change when that something changes.

The best definition of freedom I have ever heard!

More like indifference to change.

Originally Posted by tropicalbreeze

More like indifference to change.

To me that sounds like being the ultimate doormat. And like a description of complete death.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

To me that sounds like being the ultimate doormat. And like a description of complete death.

Indifference to change itself. Neither trying nor resisting change. Sometimes allowing change to happen inside you. How can one naturally develop if they don't allow change to happen?

Originally Posted by tropicalbreeze

Indifference to change itself. Neither trying nor resisting change. Sometimes allowing change to happen inside you. How can one naturally develop if they don't allow change to happen?

The thing I lack in that scenario is the will to direct the change, instead of simply allowing any old change that comes along.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

The thing I lack in that scenario is the will to direct the change, instead of simply allowing any old change that comes along.

If someone feels the need to change, then change. Direct it, or allow it.

Originally Posted by tropicalbreeze

If someone feels the need to change, then change. Direct it, or allow it.

But whenever someone feels the need to change, they are no longer indifferent to change. To me, this is their way of demonstrating being alive. And only by being alive, and equipped with the will to change, can someone really be free. The opposite is not freedom, but the complete lack of it.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

But whenever someone feels the need to change, they are no longer indifferent to change. To me, this is their way of demonstrating being alive. And only by being alive, and equipped with the will to change, can someone really be free. The opposite is not freedom, but the complete lack of it.

My comment "If someone feels the need to change, then change. Direct it, or allow it." was less about freedom and more of a common sense approach to things. I can't pretend to know what freedom is. But the more indifference i feel to change the more liberated i feel. I feel i'm constantly changing without feeling a need for it or trying to make it happen. Change just happens. Sometimes the environment helps bring about change in me, sometimes not. Perhaps most here can relate?