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    1. #26
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      Originally posted by dougdrums
      Quite honeslty I really didn't see how you were \"busting me up\". Your refrences are loose, and it is all just personal opinion.

      (I'm still interested in what translation you are reading from. Not stating one makes it apper as if you were just pulling this off of some website.)
      Actually its called the New World Translation. Take a look at it if you can get the chance to get a hold of one. See ya around

    2. #27
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      wow...im not gonna even touch this thing...you guys would hate me -.-

      ...tho i suppose this was an arguement over heaven/hell to begin with, which makes it harder since you automatically assume that the written Word is truth (the one and only), and is flawless...

    3. #28
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      I 'gree with WhiteStripes there (dougdrums). ANYONE can take scriptures out of context in order to prove a point. In order to be interpretted correctly, you have to read them in their full context... So much is UNCLEAR and CONFUSING to people (especially those unfamiliar with the text) when you take out scattered bits and pieces of the BIBLE and put them together to create some kind of equation that may not even be there... I agree that the Bible (no, not the NWT) is infallible, but the knowledge of it should be in your heart -not just used as a reference book to recite and regurgitate.

      Originally posted by ShadowNightWing

      Actually its called the New World Translation. Take a look at it if you can get the chance to get a hold of one. See ya around
      There's a major part of the problem right there. As far as I understand, the New World Translation is only accepted by the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses which orthodox Christianity has claimed as heretical and allegedly containing false prophets (there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

    4. #29
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      Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>
      I 'gree with WhiteStripes there (dougdrums). ANYONE can take scriptures out of context in order to prove a point. In order to be interpretted correctly, you have to read them in their full context... So much is UNCLEAR and CONFUSING to people (especially those unfamiliar with the text) when you take out scattered bits and pieces of the BIBLE and put them together to create some kind of equation that may not even be there... I agree that the Bible (no, not the NWT) is infallible, but the knowledge of it should be in your heart -not just used as a reference book to recite and regurgitate.

      <!--QuoteBegin-ShadowNightWing

      Actually its called the New World Translation. Take a look at it if you can get the chance to get a hold of one. See ya around
      There's a major part of the problem right there. As far as I understand, the New World Translation is only accepted by the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses which orthodox Christianity has claimed as heretical and allegedly containing false prophets (there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...[/b]
      Actually thats half correct. They did make a prediction but not of that nature. Mostly all people of Christendom make that presistant mistake in them because they truely don't understand thier beliefs. Thier prediction in regards to Christ return is only fullfilled once everyone of the inhabited Earth has been Wittness to. Bet you've had one knock on your Door before, probably more than once. Anyway of course Orthodox Christianity wouldn't except the NWT because for one Their beliefs are Christendom and not truely Christianity. Lets take the belief of the Holy Trinity which states that 3 are 1 this is not believed to be true. And thier Bible isn't consistant with the original Hebrew Scriptures.

    5. #30
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      1) I was referring specifically to those who make false predictions concerning dates, etc. and claim to be speaking on behalf of God (hence they are false prophets...) I know that many people have made the mistake of predicting Christ's return. This is a mistake that the scriptures say identifies false teachers and prophets. Concerning oneself with the when and wheres of Jesus' return only distracts from the truth. Eschatology is a big topic, but not many have studied it enough to know how to accurately interpret Biblical prophecy.
      2) I understood that the Watchtower was applying specific Biblical prophecies to what was occurring and then "going to occur" in the late 70s or early 80s... (see link below)
      3) Yep, I 've spoken with many door-to door salesmen. And as soon as they see that I will be a challenge to convert, they head out the door -how's that for someone who claims to care for my soul? I won't be another notch on someone's conversion belt...
      4) In other words all of "Christendom" as you put it , is not "true Christianity" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians (and religion). That mindset is characteristic of cults -especially ones that have only been around for less than a few hundred years.'
      5) "Not believed to be true" -by who? I've been in the trinity "debate" with too many Jehovah's Witnesses in the past... I really don't feel like going there again right now but there are a couple sights below... My experience is that the NW Translation has doctored scripture from original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to fit there own doctrinal stance -not the other way around. Here are a couple sights that may be interesting to note...
      http://www.mts.net/~acts1711/Trinity_Doctrine.htm
      http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/falseprophet.htm
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

    6. #31
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      lol,

      if the scriptures are 'literal' (whatever that means)

      call me a Gnostic !


      Philosophically why 'truth' and 'literal' are false words:

      There is a thing (undefinable)
      there is the observer whom defines a 'truth' by defining the thing.
      the problem with that is, every 'thing' is defined by its opposite.
      sometimes by a complex web of opposites
      language, like programming, is a series of 0s and 1s yes and no
      over and over, more and more detailed
      rhetoric is indecipherable due to slang
      once 'thing' is 'truth' its 'opposite' automatically exists
      slang IS 'truth' now!
      definitions are broad
      words have many meanings to many different people
      thus

      there are separate perspectives automatically involved in definition

      1) the object ('thing')
      2) the person defining it
      3) the person defining the first definition
      ...and these 3 loop infinitly...till...enlightenment

      so the 'literal text' is never truth or lie, it is always a mix of BOTH
      always
      humans r this way it is out heaven/hell here
      the word virus nothing makes sense no words are real

      just old metaphor
      Juliao
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      . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ja42.blogspot.com . . . . . . . .

    7. #32
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      Originally posted by evangel
      1) I was referring specifically to those who make false predictions concerning dates, etc. and claim to be speaking on behalf of God (hence they are false prophets...) I know that many people have made the mistake of predicting Christ's return. This is a mistake that the scriptures say identifies false teachers and prophets. Concerning oneself with the when and wheres of Jesus' return only distracts from the truth. Eschatology is a big topic, but not many have studied it enough to know how to accurately interpret Biblical prophecy.
      I never recalled the Witnesses ever giving a date of Christ's return. What I do recall is more or less the fact that we are living in what is called the Last days. The Wittnesses understand that this system is utimately coming to an end in regards to events unfolding that Christ spoke of, which is a sure sign of signs to look for before this system ends. Everything that Christ has mentioned is currently playing out right now. Witnesses draw reference of practicing true Christianity in the way Jesus has previously not speaking on Gods behalf. Unlike most religions they never make claims that God has spoken to them and told them to do anything. They follow the footsteps of Christ teachings and not beat around the bush. Jesus said: I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things,\" (John 8:28) He stated:\"I have come in the name of my Father.\"(John 5:43) Jesus also said which Im well aware that you already know: \"He who speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory.\" Here's one for you in regards to your False prophets. Matt.24:24: \"False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [\"Miracles,\" TEV-Miracle Crusade Benny Hinn Ring a bell?] He is recongnized in the Bible as a false Prophet. Jesus gave us signs to look for in regards to his return, so why should we not concern ourselves with his arrival?

      Originally posted by Evangel
      2) I understood that the Watchtower was applying specific Biblical prophecies to what was occurring and then \"going to occur\" in the late 70s or early 80s... (see link below)
      This is what I understand also but yet I still do not see a Specific date mentioned which the Witnesses never gave. They are merely following the signs which Christ gave direction to look for, which are not just signs from the 70's and 80's but the signs that have progressed to worsen even in this 21st century. And they will get worst. The 911 Attacks is probably going to be a walk in the Park compared to what Satan has in store next. Satan knows his time is coming soon so he's unleashing a fury unlike anything we've seen.

      Originally posted by Evangel
      3) Yep, I 've spoken with many door-to door salesmen. And as soon as they see that I will be a challenge to convert, they head out the door -how's that for someone who claims to care for my soul? I won't be another notch on someone's conversion belt...
      Thats funny \"salesmen\" I don't recall Wittnesses selling anything. And no they do not sell the Watchtowers because you see Wittnesses giving those out for free everywhere. Grocery stores, train stations, etc... you name it they are thier. And I don't believe that they would run away because they felt you were a challenge do you realize how many individuals they talk face to face with on a daily basis? Your beliefs would not pose as much of a challenge as someone who doesn't believe in God at all. Why are they salesmen to you? Because they come knocking on your door dressed in a suit? Mostly people turn them away.

      Originally posted by Evangel
      4) In other words all of \"Christendom\" as you put it , is not \"true Christianity\" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians (and religion). That mindset is characteristic of cults -especially ones that have only been around for less than a few hundred years.'
      Cults huh? Well lets discuss this cult thing that the Witnesses always gets labled with. A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that empahsizes devotion according to prescribed ritual. Many cults follow a living human leader, and often their adherents live in groups apart from the rest of society. The standard for what is orthodox however should be God's word, and Jehovah's Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible. Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people. The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Eph:4:5 says there is \"One Lord, one faith.\" Jesus stated: \"Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it... Not everyone saying to me \"Lord, Lord\" will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.\"-Matt.7:13,14-21 See also Cor:1:9-11.

      Originally posted by Evangel
      5) \"Not believed to be true\" -by who? I've been in the trinity \"debate\" with too many Jehovah's Witnesses in the past... I really don't feel like going there again right now but there are a couple sights below... My experience is that the NW Translation has doctored scripture from original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to fit there own doctrinal stance -not the other way around. Here are a couple sights that may be interesting to note...
      Doctored Scriptures? How can you Doctor the orginal Scriptures. Explain to me this, how many times is Yahweh mentioned in your Bible? Your Orthodox Christians recognize this name as the name of the Almighty Father. My question to you is how many times do you see this name in your Bible? I want to see consistancy The King James version does not produce this consistancy let alone even use the name Yahweh or Jehovah. Yeah the names there but only some 7 or 8 times. Why isn't the name mentioned in constant structer as the Hebrew Scriptures? The Trinity would be a great disscussion Lets talk about it shall we? This is going to be a while also so get ready for a long discussion about the Trinity. I just want to know if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are coequal then why does Mark 13:32 states No one know of that day or tha hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, and if you sugguest the Son was limited by his human nature of not knowing then Why did the Holy Spirit not know? I leave it there for you to ponder with for a while. Talk to ya later.

    8. #33
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      I never recalled the Witnesses ever giving a date of Christ's return. What I do recall is more or less the fact that we are living in what is called the Last days.
      The Watchtower has published assignment of specific prophecies (see link on previous page) According to the Watchtowers interpretation of scripture we are in the last days. Every generation of Christianity (or Christendom as you put it) since Christ's ascension has believed themselves to be living in \"the last days.\" Hebrews 1:1,2:
      \"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.\"

      Everything that Christ has mentioned is currently playing out right now.
      According to which interpretation?

      Unlike most religions they never make claims that God has spoken to them and told them to do anything.
      Some research on past Watchtower publications may help you to see otherwise...

      They follow the footsteps of Christ teachings and not beat around the bush.
      \"beat around the bush?\" I'm assuming you mean something like \"uncompromisingly\" or without \"watering down\" Christ's teachings? Maybe you could clarify.

      so why should we not concern ourselves with his arrival?
      I believe that I should be ready for Christ's return at all times whether he comes back today, in 10 years, or 1000 years from now... It is not that we should not study and know prophecy concerning the end times, but that we should have a firm understanding first of salvation, grace, justice, love, sanctification, and other basics before trying to decipher the prophets, which are the most difficult to understand of all the books of the Bible. My point is, we should always be ready and not be distracted by when and where.

      Satan knows his time is coming soon so he's unleashing a fury unlike anything we've seen.
      I would agree with that.

      I don't believe that they would run away because they felt you were a challenge do you realize how many individuals they talk face to face with on a daily basis? Your beliefs would not pose as much of a challenge as someone who doesn't believe in God at all. Why are they salesmen to you?
      I didn't say they run away. I said they would leave. I have met with them, set up meetings with them, etc. However, when they realize that I am strong in my beliefs and understanding of scripture, they seem to realize that I am not \"an easy convert,\" so they mark my house and never come back. Yes, I know how many people they talk to every day. I believe that many of them, like other religious leaders simply do this out of a requirement or compulsion of the leadership rather than out of a love for Christ or a true concern for souls. It's more like a job, thus I see them to be similar to salesmen.

      I wrote: 4) In other words all of \"Christendom\" as you put it , is not \"true Christianity\" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians (and religion). That mindset is characteristic of cults -especially ones that have only been around for less than a few hundred years.'
      You wrote: \"The standard for what is orthodox however should be God's word, and Jehovah's Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible.\"
      I agree (with the first part), problem is, Jehovah's Witnesses use their own unique translation of the Bible (which by itself should raise a red flag for any skeptic) Not to mention, different people interpret the scriptures differently - as you know. That statement, therefore, is moot since you're preaching to the choir.

      Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people.
      If you use those specific characteristics to define what a cult is, then they are not, but I define them as a cult, specifically because they teach that in order to be saved you have to be a member of their church, then they proceed to dish out several requirements that creates a works based rather than a grace-based salvation.

      The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Eph:4:5 says there is \"One Lord, one faith.\" Jesus stated: \"Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it... Not everyone saying to me \"Lord, Lord\" will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.\"-Matt.7:13,14-21 See also Cor:1:9-11.
      Preaching to the choir again...

      Doctored Scriptures? How can you Doctor the orginal Scriptures.
      By using inconsistent methods of interpretation and interpreting according to preconceived doctrine, rather than utilizing standard hermeneutical methods (which are standard for secular, relgious, or agnostic).

      Explain to me this, how many times is Yahweh mentioned in your Bible? Your Orthodox Christians recognize this name as the name of the Almighty Father. My question to you is how many times do you see this name in your Bible?
      All of those questions are loaded with assumptions... Firstly, one needs to have a working knowledge of the original language (Hebrew) -which yes, I do have. The name \"Yahweh\" and the name \"Jehovah\" are one and the same. If you had a knowledge of Hebrew, you'd know that. Hebrew does not use vowels (there are no letters representing vowel sounds like English has), thus the only difference in the pronunciation \"Jehovah\" and \"Yahweh\" depends on the insertion of vowels. Jehovah's Witnesses, seemingly arbitrarily choose EE, OO, AH instead of AH OO EH (Jah-Weh). This is tangential at this point, but it's at least worth mentioning since so many Jehovah's Winesses seem to like to press this point (without having a working knowledge of Hebrew, I might add).

      Why isn't the name mentioned in constant structer as the Hebrew Scriptures?
      The above should shed some light here...

      if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are coequal then why does Mark 13:32 states No one know of that day or tha hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, and if you sugguest the Son was limited by his human nature of not knowing then Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
      The Holy Spirit was not mentioned in the passage you mentioned. I WOULD say that the Son was limited by his humanness As far as what I would mean by co-equal...
      Example: A man and his wife are "coequal" in their humanity (their nature)yet their roles (as prescribed by the scriptures) dictate that women should be submissive to their husbands in many aspects. Does this make them less human? Obviously not. Women are equally human. Similarly, the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit are equally Divine (equal in nature). This is only an analogy, thus it is obviously not going to explain all. Explaining the trinity is the same as trying to explain or define God himself... Scripture, however points numerous times to the doctrine of the trinity (yes I know the word "trinity is never used in the Bible!). I suggest you take a look at the links I gave. They would probably answer any question you would pose to me -and without clogging this thread unnecessarily.
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

    9. #34
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      w00t fer evangel!

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      Okay Evangel this is getting exciting shall we proceed?

      The Watchtower has published assignment of specific prophecies (see link on previous page) According to the Watchtowers interpretation of scripture we are in the last days. Every generation of Christianity (or Christendom as you put it) since Christ's ascension has believed themselves to be living in \"the last days.\" Hebrews 1:1,2:
      \"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.\"
      You never answered my question. I wanted you to show me of a specific date mentioned that gave reference to this statement here.
      there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...
      So once again if you please produce a date to back this up.

      Everything that Christ has mentioned is currently playing out right now.
      According to which interpretation?
      Im referring to the last days? How can you not see the things going on around you? Remember the various aspects of the sign are recorded at Matthew chapers 24,25 and Mark 13, also Luke 21. What you are reading in those books are the signs currently playing out in our time. Unless I missed something I believe alll of these signs Christ has mentioned are currently going on today. So yes this includes your interpretation also unless you fail to see whats really going on in our world.

      Some research on past Watchtower publications may help you to see otherwise...
      Once again produce the evidence to support this statement. I've read plenty of Watchtowers and never have I seen anyone saying that God has spoken to them Directly.

      beat around the bush?\" I'm assuming you mean something like \"uncompromisingly\" or without \"watering down\" Christ's teachings? Maybe you could clarify.
      I mean their works are consistant. Why aren't you going door to door preaching the news of the coming Kingdom? I mean you do believe it's coming right. Jesus Christ did it.

      My point is, we should always be ready and not be distracted by when and where
      By nature we are human beings programmed this way. If I told you \"Hey Evangel Im bringing you Two Plane tickets to Tahiti to stay in a 5star resort for 3 months and Five Hundred Thousand dollars spending money\". The first thing you're going to say is \"When?\" As a matter of fact there isn't a person on this planet who's not going to want to know when they will recieve those tickets and Money. Human Nature. Its a beautiful thing.

      I believe that many of them, like other religious leaders simply do this out of a requirement or compulsion of the leadership rather than out of a love for Christ or a true concern for souls. It's more like a job, thus I see them to be similar to salesmen
      I highlighted that because thats your safe zone. See thats only what you believe, Im giving you the facts. It is not a requirement it totally up to them if they want to do field service or not. No one recieves pay for going door to door, so how can it be more like a job. I don't know about you but I would rather get a check for working a Job. For something someone has a passion or love of course they will do it for free. And also that above statement makes me futher realize that you never even spoken to a witness maybe for a couple of minutes but thats it. Because if you can say that they do not have love for Christ then you never spoken with them. Thats the reason why they go door to door because they are excited about Christs return in the future. And if they were not concerned for souls then why are they wasting their time coming to your door?

      Oh and what does preaching to the Choir mean?

      I cannot get to every point because I gotta get back to work. but I will concentrate on this last one because I like this one alot.

      All of those questions are loaded with assumptions... Firstly, one needs to have a working knowledge of the original language (Hebrew) -which yes, I do have. The name \"Yahweh\" and the name \"Jehovah\" are one and the same. If you had a knowledge of Hebrew, you'd know that. Hebrew does not use vowels (there are no letters representing vowel sounds like English has), thus the only difference in the pronunciation \"Jehovah\" and \"Yahweh\" depends on the insertion of vowels. Jehovah's Witnesses, seemingly arbitrarily choose EE, OO, AH instead of AH OO EH (Jah-Weh). This is tangential at this point, but it's at least worth mentioning since so many Jehovah's Winesses seem to like to press this point (without having a working knowledge of Hebrew, I might add).
      Yes I agree one does need to have working knowledge of the Hebrew language and no you do not have. Tell me this What in this particular paragraph below gives you indication that I do not know that Yahweh and Jehovah are the same names?
      Explain to me this, how many times is Yahweh mentioned in your Bible? Your Orthodox Christians recognize this name as the name of the Almighty Father. My question to you is how many times do you see this name in your Bible? I want to see consistancy The King James version does not produce this consistancy let alone even use the name Yahweh or Jehovah. Yeah the names there but only some 7 or 8 times.
      I don't think you read the full question I asked you. You seemed to have chopped it up and left out the part which shows you specifically that I am well aware that the name Yahweh and Jehovah are the same, tis is a clear example that shows how many have chopped up the origianl scriptures thanks for producing that. Anyway moving on.

      You say you have working knowledge of the Hebrew Language huh? No human today can be certain how Jehovahs name was originally pronounced, because as you are well aware Biblical Hebrew was originally written with only cononants, not vowels right? When the language was in everyday use, readers easily provided the proper vowels. In time, however, the Jews came to have the superstitious idea that it was wrong to say God's personal name out loud, so they used substitute expressions. Centuries later, Jewish scholars developed a system of points by which to indicate which vowels to use when reading ancient Hebrew, but they put the vowels for the subsistute expressions around the four consonants representing the devine name. Thus the original pronunciation of the divine name was lost.

      Many scholars favor the spelling \"Yahweh\", but it is uncertain and there is not agreement among them. On the other hand, \"Jehovah\" is the form of the name that is most readily recognized, because it has been used in English for centuries and preserves, equally with other forms, the four consonants of the Hebrew Tetragrammation.

      J.B. Rotherham, in The Emaphasised Bible, used the form \"Yahweh\" throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. However, later in his Studies in the Psalms he used the form \"Jehovah.\" He explained: \"JEHOVAH-The employment of this English form of the Memorial name... in the present version of the Psalter does not arise from any misgiving as to the more correct pronunciation, as being Yahweh; but solely from practical evidence personally selected of the desirability of keeping in touch with the public ear and eye in a matter of this kind, in which the principal thing is the easy recognition of the Divine name intended.\"(London 1911) p.29

      After discussing various pronunciations, German professor Gustav Friedrich Oehler concluded: \"From this point onward I use the word Jehovah, because as a matter of fact, this name has now become more naturalized in our vocabulary, and cannot be supplanted.\"-Theologie des Alten Testaments, second Edition(Stuttgart, 1882), P.143

      Jesuit scholar Paul Joucon states: \"In our translation, instead of the (hypothetical) form Yahweh, we have used the form Jehovah...Which is the conventional literary form used in French.\"-Grammaire de l'hebreu biblique (Rome, 1923), footnote on p. 49

      As you are aware Evangel most names change to some extent when transferred from one language to another Example Evangel would be pronounced (ee-Ban-ger') in Japanese, Jesus was born a Jew right? and his name in Hebrew was perhaps pronounced Ye-shu'a', which Im sure you know, but the inspired writers of the Chrisitan Scriptures did not hesitate to use the Greek form of the name I'e'sous'. In most other languages the pronunciation is slightly different, but we freely use the form that is common in our tongue. The same is true of other Bible names. How, then, can we show proper respect for the One to whom the most important name of all belongs? Would it be by never speaking or writing his name because we do not know exactly how it was originally pronounced? Or, rather, would it be by using the pronunciation and spelling that are common in our language, while speaking well of its Owner and conducting ourselves as hsi worshipers in a manner that honors him? Do you have a close relationship with anyone whose personal name you do not know? For people to whom God is nameless he is often merely an impersonal force, not a real person, not someone that they know and love and to whom they can speak from the heart in prayer. If they do pray, their prayers are merely a ritual, a formalistic repetition of memorized expressions. Which brings me back So how many times does the name \"Yahweh\"or \"Jehovah\" appear in your bible?

      The Holy Spirit was not mentioned in the passage you mentioned. I WOULD say that the Son was limited by his humanness As far as what I would mean by co-equal...
      Example: A man and his wife are \"coequal\" in their humanity (their nature)yet their roles (as prescribed by the scriptures) dictate that women should be submissive to their husbands in many aspects. Does this make them less human? Obviously not. Women are equally human. Similarly, the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit are equally Divine (equal in nature). This is only an analogy, thus it is obviously not going to explain all. Explaining the trinity is the same as trying to explain or define God himself... Scripture, however points numerous times to the doctrine of the trinity (yes I know the word \"trinity is never used in the Bible!). I suggest you take a look at the links I gave. They would probably answer any question you would pose to me -and without clogging this thread unnecessarily
      Wow Evangel Im sensing Hostility. You've stepped on my beliefs pointed out Fabricated links which to me are the works of Satan,about my beliefs then the moment I explain them to you, you wanna say we are clogging up this thread unnecessarily. Ummmm have you forgotten I created this thread and you and I have been discussing these topics with no interference, So who am I clogging this thread up from? Dude if you don't want to discuss any futher I would rather you just come out and say it don't use smoke screens to make it as if we are wrong. When you and Lucius was discussing religion you didn't make a statement of that magnitude. I respect your beliefs and faiths but when someone make assumptions about what I believe in then I it is my \"PASSION\" to open thier eyes. And yes I read up on that garbage that you've linked me to, just like I said earlier \"Satan.\" Whoever wrote that does not know anything about the Witness its falsyfied and just down right wrong. How can someone claim to be a Christian and put something up on the web like that? That is not an act of true Christianity.

      Similarly, the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit are equally Divine (equal in nature).
      And this statement here is contridictory to your beliefs I would've sworn that the Holy Trinity mean they were all one in the same. Now if you are saying that they are all equally Divine then no they are not all equally Divine. I would say they all posess power but no one is more Divine than the Almighty Father Jehovah. How can they be co-equal on any level if one is limited which means you put limitations on Jehovah and he has no limitations. It doesn't make sense. Im going to leave it here if you want to continue then Im game, if not and you feel like you need a way out then its cool just don't put up crap like we are clogging up the thread with nonesense we are talking about Christ, Bibles, The Almight Jehovah, Christianity in General and you say we are clogging the thread up unnecessarily Please don't do that I hate when people half-step. I look at that as a form of cowardness. Just come out and say I don't wanna do this anymore.

      There's a major part of the problem right there. As far as I understand, the New World Translation is only accepted by the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses which orthodox Christianity has claimed as heretical and allegedly containing false prophets (there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...
      This is your first statement, which put you in the game and now that the heat is on you wanna run away from it. Finish what you started!

      And look how Haruko is looking at you in Disappointment

    11. #36
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      Originally posted by dougdrums
      w00t fer evangel!
      Thats to be expected you're upset because I had to break you down. I couldn't do this debate with the likes of you anyway you're just a little too emotional. And im starting to have second thoughts on Evangels emotional control.

    12. #37
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Has anyone played the game telephone - with a large group of peaple you say a word and say it to the person to your left as fast as you can. the last person has a completley different word than the original. My point. Think of a doctrine that has been passed on for thousands of years. How miconstrude it would become. Then you talk about a book that everyone wants to change the contents, to fit their own needs. Now how can anyone truley beleive that the Bible today is what it once was?

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      Very valid point Howetzer and I truely agree with you.

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      if any of us take part in our culture we are automatic contradictions, and that is what I find very spectacular and funny bout all this.

      CULTure idolism material possesion

      i pray 3 times a day, but i still have to work to make money...

      jesus would dissaprove

      i go to church and all i feel is dismay for all these poor brainwashed people who go to work EVERYDAY and ruin their lives earning money ALL YEAR ROUND instead of having REAL families with LOVE. Work and you'll go to heaven, the Republican way to God is cranking oil products out like drugs for the new consumer world. earth is part of God, too.

      i love earth...we should stop arguing and remember that all our religions came from the same place and help it get better....she's so sick. can't anyone feel that?

      i almost puke when i go through Dallas or Denver, my stomach, my eyes, all the wasted resources all the slums all the drugs, this place is wasted on IDOLISM. I feel things are about to rapidly decay in the cities...hell, they already are.

      Midgar remains...
      Juliao
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      . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ja42.blogspot.com . . . . . . . .

    15. #40
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      You never answered my question. I wanted you to show me of a specific date mentioned that gave reference to this statement here.
      A specific date is unnecessary. My POINT is that published accounts exist that name an approximate date of the end of the world... which never came to pass. If your going to talk about \"not answering questions\" you need to go back and look at previous posts... I posed several questions and never got answers for them.

      So once again if you please produce a date to back this up.
      See above. I would suggest checking the annals of the Watchtower publication from the late 70s to the early 80s if you're really interested in an answer.
      ... this includes your interpretation also unless you fail to see whats really going on in our world.
      I'm not so quick to apply meaning to prophetic scriptures, especially in light of the many generations before us that have done the exact same thing, only to die with the realization that he still had not come back. I'm not saying we should not be ready or vigilant... I'm saying that we should not use methods of scriptural interpretation that are without consistancy and much prayer.

      never have I seen anyone saying that God has spoken to them Directly.
      I never said that God spoke to them directly.

      I mean their works are consistant. Why aren't you going door to door preaching the news of the coming Kingdom? I mean you do believe it's coming right. Jesus Christ did it.
      Jesus never did \"door-to-door\" preaching. He taught his disciples, in sermons, and in the temple. As far as the \"coming Kingdom\" I have a very different interpretation about what the kingdom is. This is another tangential issue that deserves its OWN FOCUS. We are arguing too many different points here. We need to pare down to a few of them in order to make sense to one another.

      ...when they will recieve those tickets and Money. Human Nature. Its a beautiful thing.
      Curiosity is good, but if Christ wanted us to know when, specifically, he would have told us by now.

      Oh and what does preaching to the Choir mean?
      You are telling me what I already know... Again, in a convo like this, it should be primarily from your heart. Quoting scripture verses (especially from the (NWT) will gain you no ground.


      Yes I agree one does need to have working knowledge of the Hebrew language and no you do not have.
      Actually, I've taken three semesters of Hebrew as part of the requirement for graduation from college.
      tis is a clear example that shows how many have chopped up the origianl scriptures thanks for producing that. Anyway moving on.


      How, then, can we show proper respect for the One to whom the most important name of all belongs? Would it be by never speaking or writing his name because we do not know exactly how it was originally pronounced? Or, rather, would it be by using the pronunciation and spelling that are common in our language, while speaking well of its Owner and conducting ourselves as hsi worshipers in a manner that honors him?
      It is not the name itself, but the meaning of the name (who that name represents) that is important.


      Wow Evangel Im sensing Hostility. You've stepped on my beliefs pointed out Fabricated links which to me are the works of Satan,about my beliefs then the moment I explain them to you, you wanna say we are clogging up this thread unnecessarily.
      It is obvious to me that your motives for asking the questions are not to receive an answer but to display some sort of superior knowledge or for who knows what. That is why I think it's clogging. If you really wanted answers, there is a whole lot of academic theological research done. I am not here to display that I know more than anyone else. It is obvious we are not going to solve centuries of debate. So my point is, we should go to anpther forum more suited to religious debate (of which there seems to be no end) rather than distracting from lucid dreaming...

      When you and Lucius was discussing religion you didn't make a statement of that magnitude.
      Lucius spoke to me directly and he and I FOCUSED ON a PARTICULAR ISSUE rather than going out on several tangents at once - encouraging confusion or miscommunication. He also did not ignore my questions to him, then expect me to answer his.

      All I'm saying is it would be better to focus on \"the trinity\" or \"False prohecy\" or \"eschatology\" simply because we are biting off a lot and not chewing it enough to swallow... let alone digest. I am trying to learn. Not show my superior understanding.
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

    16. #41
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      I think the concept of Hell is wasteful and I'm not sure whether or not it exists. I think in God's grand plan all souls will be saved and brought into him, maybe there is some kind of reincarnation for those who do not achieve salvation on their first try or something. I don't think anyone knows except God himself.

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      Originally posted by Evangel
      A specific date is unnecessary. My POINT is that published accounts exist that name an approximate date of the end of the world... which never came to pass. If your going to talk about \"not answering questions\" you need to go back and look at previous posts... I posed several questions and never got answers for them.
      But you haven't gave indications of any particular publications or anything. Obviously you've read it somewhere right? So I was basically asking for which issue did you pull this from.. you just can't say its from the 1970's to the 80's Watchtower.. You want me to research almost 2 decades of publications? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND? Do you know how many articles they came out with back then? So I was asking for the exact issue that you can refer me to that gives your statement any credit.. If you can't produce it then that statements invalid to me.. I need to see proof just like any other human being and Im sure you understand that.. Yeah perhaps I did miss some questions but the difference between you and I, is that I tell you what questions you've missed and you don't let me know..

      Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>
      I'm not so quick to apply meaning to prophetic scriptures, especially in light of the many generations before us that have done the exact same thing, only to die with the realization that he still had not come back. I'm not saying we should not be ready or vigilant... I'm saying that we should not use methods of scriptural interpretation that are without consistancy and much prayer.[/b]
      I can understand where so many has fallen short in the past, but lots of events that are currently playing out today didn't play out a half century ago. But I believe that we are close.. As if the Wrath was knocking on the door.

      Originally posted by Evangel@
      I never said that God spoke to them directly.
      Sorry about that.. Missunderstanding

      <!--QuoteBegin-Evangel

      Jesus never did \"door-to-door\" preaching. He taught his disciples, in sermons, and in the temple. As far as the \"coming Kingdom\" I have a very different interpretation about what the kingdom is. This is another tangential issue that deserves its OWN FOCUS. We are arguing too many different points here.
      Jesus word of the Kingdom went from home to home by way of his disciples. Even sending his Disciples out to talk personally to others in town about it.. When Jesus sent out his early disciples, he directed them to go to the homes of the people. (Matt. 10:6-8 11-13).

      Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>
      We are arguing too many different points here. We need to pare down to a few of them in order to make sense to one another.[/b]
      I can keep up just find. I perfer to capture mulitple topics. If its too much for you then I will limit it down to a couple.

      Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>
      Curiosity is good, but if Christ wanted us to know when, specifically, he would have told us by now.[/b]
      He did already explain to us from the signs to look for..

      Originally posted by Evangel
      It is not the name itself, but the meaning of the name (who that name represents) that is important.
      Exactly what Im saying here..But if you understand, and are fully aware of the Devine name Jehovah and the meaning of it.. then you should be trying to get answers for yourself in regards to the consistancy of your bible.. Its only fair to you.. Im not against you Evangel Im trying to look out for you...

      <!--QuoteBegin-Evangel
      @
      It is obvious to me that your motives for asking the questions are not to receive an answer but to display some sort of superior knowledge or for who knows what. That is why I think it's clogging. If you really wanted answers, there is a whole lot of academic theological research done. I am not here to display that I know more than anyone else. It is obvious we are not going to solve centuries of debate. So my point is, we should go to anpther forum more suited to religious debate (of which there seems to be no end) rather than distracting from lucid dreaming...
      How you figure? Like you can pick me out from an online conversation. Why would I single you out for domination of intelligence from all the other people in this forum? What makes you so special. Get over yourself. Anyway, Yeah since you can't seem to answer any of my questions then I will pick your brain. Because you haven't shown me anything its the same ole' Thing.. And its a shame that people like you are so Weak! Stop looking for a way out of things when it gets too hot for you and don't cut corners thats a sure sign of weakness. Im not going to sugar coat anything for you and I expect the same in return. If you wanna run then run.. Otherwise stop crying about the diverse topics, issues, or whatever.. Be a Man and stand up for what you believe in.. If you cannot stand up for your faith then it's not all that meanful to you in the first place.

      <!--QuoteBegin-Evangel

      Lucius spoke to me directly and he and I FOCUSED ON a PARTICULAR ISSUE rather than going out on several tangents at once - encouraging confusion or miscommunication. He also did not ignore my questions to him, then expect me to answer his. *

      All I'm saying is it would be better to focus on \"the trinity\" or \"False prohecy\" or \"eschatology\" simply because we are biting off a lot and not chewing it enough to swallow... let alone digest. I am trying to learn. Not show my superior understanding.
      I see where you're coming from. Im used to coversing serval topics at once. But for one who cannot do it then yes it would get confusing for that individual. I don't mind sticking to one topic. It's boring but whatever floats your boat.. And if you feel like im not speaking to you directly then thats probably a piece of information you should've kept to yourself. Let me give you a little bit of advise.. This world is not going to move at your pace. You can either keep up with it or get left behind. The choice is yours.

    18. #43
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      Originally posted by Evangel
      It is not the name itself, but the meaning of the name (who that name represents) that is important.
      How you figure? Like you can pick me out from an online conversation. Why would I single you out for domination of intelligence from all the other people in this forum? What makes you so special. Get over yourself[/b]
      .

      I'm over. You \"picked me out\" because I \"picked you out\" I'm not special. I'm saying that you obviously are asking questions to see if I can answer (or some other motive) rather than wanting to learn from me.

      Anyway, Yeah since you can't seem to answer any of my questions then *I will pick your brain. Because you haven't shown me anything its the same ole' Thing.. And its a shame that people like you are so Weak! Stop looking for a way out of things when it gets too hot for you and don't cut corners thats a sure sign of weakness. Im not going to sugar coat anything for you and I expect the same in return. If you wanna run then run.. Otherwise stop crying about the diverse topics, issues, or whatever.. Be a Man and stand up for what you believe in.. If you cannot stand up for your faith then it's not all that meanful to you in the first place. [/b]
      This is not about \"being a man.\" I can stand for my faith fine, but I do not claim to be a learned Theologian or to have all the answers. Knowledge is great, but it can be useless. It also puffs up if it is not used for edification. I'm not abpout trying to shame you for your lack of knowledge or show you up... I do appreciate the challenge though

      I see where you're coming from. Im used to coversing serval topics at once. But for one who cannot do it then yes it would get confusing for that individual. I don't mind sticking to one topic. It's boring but whatever floats your boat.. [/b]
      Even two or three is fine, but you failed to answer some of my questions, then accused me of not answering yours. Again, it encourages miscommunication.

      This world is not going to move at your pace. You can either keep up with it or get left behind. The choice is yours.[/b]
      Wow that's profound stuff... but It does not apply to keepin a sane online discussion. It is not as if I stop my schedule in order to engage in this conversation.
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

    19. #44
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      Originally posted by Blulanou42
      Philosophically why 'truth' and 'literal' are false words:
      There is a thing (undefinable)
      there is the observer whom defines a 'truth' by defining the thing.
      the problem with that is, every 'thing' is defined by its opposite.
      I see your point, but do not agree...

      Truth does not need "untruth" in order to exist. It stands on its own.
      It is not a thing. It simply IS (I AM).

      Oh, and Shadow, I will research the Watchtower and see if I can find the alleged claim of the end of the world...
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

    20. #45
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      Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>
      The posts are still there... All you have to do is go back a page or two on this thread and read again rather than me re-writing the questions again.[/b]
      I checked it out went back to the begining and I didn't see anything that I didn't answer.

      Originally posted by Evangel@
      but to me, door to door evangelism is not me.
      Why not? You could reach far more people that way. Everyone doesn't show up for those Mass Sermons, or Miracle conventions or whatever it's called. For instance, Orlando Fl. That guy Benny Hinn who does the Miracle things had so many people at the Orlando convention center that they could not allow the extra 2000 people in for safety reasons. How can those individuals recieve the word? I just feel like you have to go to the Public and not vice versa although its also good to have a large convention where the public does come to you, but I feel like its better to balance out the two. Thats just my opinion. Like you said everyone doesn't do home to home.

      <!--QuoteBegin-Evangel

      FOCUSING would be better. It's not about \"keeping up\" or keeping \"the game\" going... This is no game to me. I take my beliefs and sharing them with others seriously and do not like arguing just for the sake of argument or display.
      If you see anywhere in this thread where I mentioned this is a game then let me know, because thats not where I see this. I don't recall saying its a game at all. I understand you feel just as serious about this as I do. But Im not twisting your motives around, like you're doing. Im a little more tactful than your average person. Everyones different in life, thats the beauty of Living. The way I get my point across my not be the same as someone else. My background consist of a variety of events which utimately led me to having the aggressive nature that I do have. Not making justifications or anything, but just letting you know a little bit more about my character then maybe you wouldn't twist certain things that I say around.

      Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>
      (or some other motive) rather than wanting to learn from me.[/b]
      I know more about your beliefs than you know. I decided to go in another direction aside from your typical baptist, metodist, or non-denominational christan because I saw flaws, in the works of the pastors, preachers..etc.. who was trying to teach. I don't have a particular motive, I am trying to understand YOU! and what is it thats within you and others that... Don't worry about it.

      <!--QuoteBegin-Evangel

      This is not about \"being a man.\"
      The weakness that I referred to is not limited by the Sex of an individual. Im not talking about being weak as a man. Im talking about the MIND/Human. Actually this ties into what I was going to explain up there in the previous paragraph before I said Don't worry about it.

      Originally posted by Evangel
      It is not as if I stop my schedule in order to engage in this conversation.
      Well call me stupid then. I guess I do this. There has been serval occassions where I stopped my schedule to engage in this conversation. Not because it's a game, or its about who has the most knowledge, or anything close to that. I just feel like The Father Takes presedence over everything else in my life. Im not perfect so sometimes I do slip up, but I do acknowledge the exsistance and I do have faith in the unseen and the forgotten. Not only that I agree with alot of what the witnesses believe in but Im not a Witness, I don't go to a Kingdom Hall or anything. I think every true faith is on the right track when the beliefs co-exsist with the Bible. I don't think you're wrong for you faith, I just know that in my heart its not for me, just like you know in your heart the beliefs I hold are not for you. Either way I respect all. I just sometimes like to know WHY?

      And also I've learned alot from you from our discussion's in this thread, I got what I wanted here so Im done. but if you ever have any questions on WHY? for me then feel free to ask. Otherwise thanks for replying.

    21. #46
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      If you see anywhere in this thread where I mentioned this is a game then let me know, because thats not where I see this. I don't recall saying its a game at all. [/b]
      I'll quote you:
      This is your first statement, which put you in the game and now that the heat is on you wanna run away from it. Finish what you started! [/b]


      Past questions I asked:

      I wrote:
      beat around the bush?\" I'm assuming you mean something like \"uncompromisingly\" or without \"watering down\" Christ's teachings? Maybe you could clarify.[/b]
      you wrote:
      I mean their works are consistant. Why aren't you going door to door preaching the news of the coming Kingdom? I mean you do believe it's coming right. Jesus Christ did it.[/b]
      I'm still not sure what you meant by beating around the bush. \"Their works are consistant\"??? No big deal, though...

      I wrote:

      According to which interpretation?[/b]
      My point in asking this question, as you guessed, is that there are literally hundreds of interpretations, even within the realm of those who believe in Christ, not to mention the secular interpretations of the \"end times.\" So for me to simply agree with your interpretation of end times prophecy simply because current events \"seem to fit\" the Word of God is not really sound practice when it comes to scriptural interpretation. My view is that too many people, bitth believers and unbelievers get caught up in an \"end times craze\" if you will, and are thus easily distracted from the core truths taught in the Bible.

      One point I brought up was not framed as a question, but was rather a point which you did not address. I wrote:
      4) In other words all of \"Christendom\" as you put it , is not \"true Christianity\" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians *(and religion). [/b]
      Since you did not agree or disagree, I assumed that this IS what you believe (that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones with the truth or with the \"true translation\" of the scriptures). I was emphasizing the point that if that is what you believe, (I believe ) this is also a general characteristic of cult-like behavior.

      I decided to go in another direction aside from your typical baptist, metodist, or non-denominational christan because I saw flaws, in the works of the pastors, preachers..etc.. who was trying to teach. [/b]
      Therefore the flaw is not in the teaching itself, but in the teacher. You can't blame \"the church\" or \"the denomination\" or I personally have learned to glean truth from many teachers, even though they themselves may be inconsistant or \"flawed\" as you put it. No man is perfect in his understanding of scripture, so it is God's Spirit that teaches and confirms truth, helping me to sift and discern what is true and what is deceptive doctrine.

      The weakness that I referred to is not limited by the Sex of an individual. Im not talking about being weak as a man.[/b]
      I understand that. But you're making it sound as if we are out to prove some kind of outward superiority.

      I think every true faith is on the right track when the beliefs co-exsist with the Bible. [/b]
      I'm surprised you would make a statment like that Shadow, based on your adherence to a very specific translation of the Bible. It almost sounds like you're glazing it over...


      Uuuuuuuh.... Shadow? Are you still there? Earth to Shadow, Earth to Shadow... Stumped ya, huh? Oh well . Happens to the best of us.
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

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      Re: Do All Good People Go to Heaven?

      Originally posted by ShadowNightWing+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShadowNightWing)</div>
      Okay everyone Im back and ready to discuss why I made this statement to paperdoll. Now a lot of you took it as being evil or mean but in actuality its not that. Its just truth. And its mean and evil because of fear.

      Lets start off with your statement Lucius.

      Originally posted by Lucius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lucius)
      Ah cmmon..dont tell that girl shes not going to heaven. Thats just mean >_<. Im not going to give my opinion about wether heaven exists or not..but dont tell a person he/shes not going to heaven and is going to burn in hell, all good hearted, nice, honorable persons go to heaven, or get what they deserve, something good. Wether thats trough heaven or karma..or trough the laws of the cosmos..you get what you deserve, and to tell her she going to hell, thats mean.
      Shes not.Im leaving my own religious believe sout fo this right now.
      but you go to heaven/receive good thing whatever by being a good hearted person, helping out others, being nice for others, raditating positive energy, respecting others, respecting the planet..etc..not being living strictly by the laws of..god? And certainly by telling others their going to burn in hell.. , dont be a meanie [/b]
      I never said she was going to hell where did you get that from? I don’t believe in a Firey tormented hell per-say. The concept of Hell that you are referring to is Non existent to me. This place of torture is never mentioned anywhere in The Bible orginal languages of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic Scriptural writings.

      As Paperdoll mentioned she believes in what is stated in the bible right?

      Acts 2:34: “David [Whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to God’s heart ‘] Did not ascend to the heavens.”

      Matt. 11:11 “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (So it states clearly here that John did not ascend to the heavens when he died.)

      Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in the Lord are the ones that will possess the earth… The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (This clearly states that all will not ascend to the heavens.)

      <!--QuoteBegin-Paperdoll
      @
      John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
      Notice that I highlighted everlasting Life.

      First lets take this word and play around with it for a brief moment.

      Life; Definition: An active condition that distinguishes plants, animals, humans, and spirit beings from inanimate objects. Physical living things generally have the capabilities of growth, metabolism, response to external stimuli, and reproduction. Vegetation has active life but not life as a sense-processing soul. In earthly souls, animal and human, there are both active life-force to animate them and breath to sustain that life-force.

      Life is the fullest sense, as applied to intelligent persons, is perfect existence with the right to it. The human soul is not immortal. But faithful servants of God have the prospect of everlasting life in a perfection-on earth for many, in heaven for a “little flock” as heirs of the Kingdom of God.

      Is Heavenly Life set out in the “New Testament” as the hope for all Christians?
      John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be. “ (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

      John 1:12, 13: “As many did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)

      Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gather of the heirs of the Heavenly Kingdom, there would be other who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in Heavenly glory.)

      Now if there is something you are confused about then I would more than happy to shed more light on the scriptures.

      <!--QuoteBegin-Dougdrums

      Not to be argumentitive or such, I'm just curious about why you say this. ExYOu're right I just don't want her to get dissapointed when her times up. Oh actually she wouldn't be I mean you can't have feelings if you're not conscious. You know what when I come back im going to cross reference some things in your bible Paperdoll just to explain to you why you're not going to Heaven. See ya explanation?
      This statement refers to death.

      What is the condition of the Dead?
      Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

      Ps.146:4: “His spirit goes, out he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts” All his thinking”] do perish.”

      John 11:11-14 “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep… Jesus said to them outspokenly: Lazarus has died.” (Also Psalm 13:3)

      Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?

      Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning- itself will die.”

      Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul to the very death.”

      Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

      Medical Explanations of Life after Death experiences.

      The medical editor of The Arizona Republic wrote: “When physical prowess is at its lowest ebb, as under anesthia, or the result of disease or injury, automatic control of bodily functions diminishes accordingly. Thus, the neurohormones and catecholamines of the nervous system are released and pour out in uncontrolled quantity. The result, among other manifestations, is the hallucination, rationalized after returning to consciousness, of having died and returned to life.” – May 28, 1977,Pg C-1 Also The German Medical Journal Fortschritte der Medizin, No. 41 1979; Psychology Today, January 1981.

      Now that pretty much sums a lot up if anyone has any questions in regards to what is written then I would be more than happy to accommodate the answers to such questions.

      You have Wisdom Beyond your years. Tom Cruise- I forgot what movie.. I think Top Gun/ or maybe The Firm/then again I think a Few Good Men..[/b][/quote]

      Hi, I'm new to this forum.

      By reading this post, it looks like you are a christian, ShadowNightWing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
      I just wonder what you believe happens when we die, if we don't go to heaven. Do we get a new life, or is we only dead?
      Just wondering what you think about it, ShadowNightWing.

      Regards,
      LDwannabe.

    23. #48
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      Since the cat appears to have nabbed Shadow's toungue, I believe I can provide at least one answer:

      Is Shadow a Christian?

      For the answer, scroll back and read the rest of the thread. The answer will become apparent.

      As for what happens after we die..I have heard explanations from Jehovah's Witnesses in the past, but wouldn't want to put words in Shadow's mouth...
      Shadow
      :yumdumdoodledum: :yumdumdoodledum: :yumdumdoodledum:
      "By day the LORD directs his love, at night his song is with me; a prayer to the God of my life."
      Psalm 42:8

    24. #49
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      Sorry I've been purposely staying away from this theard.

      Originally posted by LDwannabe
      Hi, I'm new to this forum.

      By reading this post, it looks like you are a christian, ShadowNightWing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
      I just wonder what you believe happens when we die, if we don't go to heaven. Do we get a new life, or is we only dead?
      Just wondering what you think about it, ShadowNightWing.

      Yup Im Christian. Evange probably doesn't think so. He thinks Im part of a cult. Now as far as what I believe happens when one dies. I think when one dies he/xhe's uncounscious. With no recollection of anything at all. This period is only temporary until the 1st and 2nd resurrections, and when Jesus Christ bring fourth the new Kingdom and create a New Earth and New Heaven. Death is not a permante thing for any of us. At least not the first death. The 2nd death is another story.

    25. #50
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      You know, it seems to me like heated argument is doing nothing constructive for this treat. I mean opinions are one thing, but using them to make others look bad is another. I am not trying to be rude in any sense, but I really think that it is not necessary to make baseless accusations about who is or isn't a christian. There is a baseless accusation thread in Senseless Banter.... I'm not a christian, but I do know that one of the key principles of christianity is not judging others...I am pretty sure that goes for other people's beliefs despite them being contrary to your own. Wouldn't it be more effective to respect religious belifs of all people be they radical or not, and agree to disagree? Again, do not take offense, it just looks like there are going to be some hurt feelings in all of this if things get anymore tense......
      Shine on, you crazy diamond!

      Raised: The Blue Meanie, Exobyte

      Adopted: MarcusoftheNight

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