Do All Good People Go to Heaven?

Okay everyone Im back and ready to discuss why I made this statement to paperdoll. Now a lot of you took it as being evil or mean but in actuality its not that. Its just truth. And its mean and evil because of fear.

Lets start off with your statement Lucius.

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Originally posted by Lucius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lucius)</div>

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Ah cmmon..dont tell that girl shes not going to heaven. Thats just mean >_<. Im not going to give my opinion about wether heaven exists or not..but dont tell a person he/shes not going to heaven and is going to burn in hell, all good hearted, nice, honorable persons go to heaven, or get what they deserve, something good. Wether thats trough heaven or karma..or trough the laws of the cosmos..you get what you deserve, and to tell her she going to hell, thats mean.
Shes not.Im leaving my own religious believe sout fo this right now.
but you go to heaven/receive good thing whatever by being a good hearted person, helping out others, being nice for others, raditating positive energy, respecting others, respecting the planet..etc..not being living strictly by the laws of..god? And certainly by telling others their going to burn in hell.. , dont be a meanie [/b]

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I never said she was going to hell where did you get that from? I don’t believe in a Firey tormented hell per-say. The concept of Hell that you are referring to is Non existent to me. This place of torture is never mentioned anywhere in The Bible orginal languages of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic Scriptural writings.

As Paperdoll mentioned she believes in what is stated in the bible right?

Acts 2:34: “David [Whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to God’s heart ‘] Did not ascend to the heavens.”

Matt. 11:11 “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (So it states clearly here that John did not ascend to the heavens when he died.)

Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in the Lord are the ones that will possess the earth… The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (This clearly states that all will not ascend to the heavens.)

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Originally posted by Paperdoll@
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

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Notice that I highlighted everlasting Life.

First lets take this word and play around with it for a brief moment.

Life; Definition: An active condition that distinguishes plants, animals, humans, and spirit beings from inanimate objects. Physical living things generally have the capabilities of growth, metabolism, response to external stimuli, and reproduction. Vegetation has active life but not life as a sense-processing soul. In earthly souls, animal and human, there are both active life-force to animate them and breath to sustain that life-force.

Life is the fullest sense, as applied to intelligent persons, is perfect existence with the right to it. The human soul is not immortal. But faithful servants of God have the prospect of everlasting life in a perfection-on earth for many, in heaven for a “little flock” as heirs of the Kingdom of God.

Is Heavenly Life set out in the “New Testament” as the hope for all Christians?
John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be. “ (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

John 1:12, 13: “As many did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)

Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gather of the heirs of the Heavenly Kingdom, there would be other who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in Heavenly glory.)

Now if there is something you are confused about then I would more than happy to shed more light on the scriptures.

<!--QuoteBegin-Dougdrums
Not to be argumentitive or such, I'm just curious about why you say this. ExYOu're right I just don't want her to get dissapointed when her times up. Oh actually she wouldn't be I mean you can't have feelings if you're not conscious. You know what when I come back im going to cross reference some things in your bible Paperdoll just to explain to you why you're not going to Heaven. See ya explanation?

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This statement refers to death.

What is the condition of the Dead?
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

Ps.146:4: “His spirit goes, out he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts” All his thinking”] do perish.”

John 11:11-14 “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep… Jesus said to them outspokenly: Lazarus has died.” (Also Psalm 13:3)

Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning- itself will die.”

Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul to the very death.”

Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

Medical Explanations of Life after Death experiences.

The medical editor of The Arizona Republic wrote: “When physical prowess is at its lowest ebb, as under anesthia, or the result of disease or injury, automatic control of bodily functions diminishes accordingly. Thus, the neurohormones and catecholamines of the nervous system are released and pour out in uncontrolled quantity. The result, among other manifestations, is the hallucination, rationalized after returning to consciousness, of having died and returned to life.” – May 28, 1977,Pg C-1 Also The German Medical Journal Fortschritte der Medizin, No. 41 1979; Psychology Today, January 1981.

Now that pretty much sums a lot up if anyone has any questions in regards to what is written then I would be more than happy to accommodate the answers to such questions.

You have Wisdom Beyond your years. Tom Cruise- I forgot what movie.. I think Top Gun/ or maybe The Firm/then again I think a Few Good Men..

I'm not even going to argue with you.

It's funny how most people when conducting religious arguments use the bible as a defense or offense when the very purpose of a reliogious debate is to converse through non-religious means.

(I have no idea what this topic was about.)

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Originally posted by Berserk Exodus
It's funny how most people when conducting religious arguments use the bible as a defense or offense when the very purpose of a reliogious debate is to converse through non-religious means.

(I have no idea what this topic was about.)

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That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

X_X, oh man, thats a whole lotta stuff..

First of all, maybe I was wrong saying you said she is going to hell, because you said she is not going to heaven, so I draw the conclusion, she is going to another place, in the christian ideas of after life. So I figured thats probally hell, lake of fire or not.

And second, shadow, can you please just speak from your heart, from your soul and not from the bible and say, as a person, that it would be just, that it would be right if a good hearted person, that lived his entire life deticated to others, helping them out, respecting others, preaching peace and harmony, but did not believe in the exact Christian ideas should not go to heaven?

Also, I am not a christian of course, and have other believes, so I cant exactly say that heaven exist as I see things way diffirent. But you can replace heaven with other words from other religions..and I do think that every person, that is like I said it there, deserves and receives that good thing in the end.

If you would ask *me* why I dont believe in "God" I could say I do, but I see it a little diffirently. [/i]

Not all ppl go to heaven.

OK, I'm going to try to get through this without swearing once...

Acts 2:32-36: "32: Then Jesus God raised up, and of that we [His disciples] are witnesses. 33: Being therefore lifted high by and to the right hand of God, and having recived from the Father the promised [blessing which is the] Holy Spirit. He has made this outpouring which you yourselves both see and hear. 34: For David did not ascend into the heavens; yet he himself says, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand and share my throne 35: Till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Read the whole thing, you doof.



About Matt. 11: How is that clear, and how do you know he is talking about heaven? The whole chapter is about teaching through parables.



About Psalm 37: Psalm 37 was a personal song by David. Therefore being a song, it must be read as if it was poetry. Anyone who knows anything about poetry knows that most poetry is not literal in meaning.

Psalm 37:28-29: "28: For the Lord delights in justice and forsakes not His saints; they are preserved forever, but the offspring of the wicked [in time] shall be cut off. 29: [Then] the [consistently] righteous shall inherit the land forever and dwell upon it forever."

You must remember that the hebrew word for "land" is also used for "earth". This psalm just says that the wicked may seem to get everything they want by being wicked, but sooner or later the consistently righteous will overtake there belongings and wealth.



Where did you pull that the human soul is not immortal from? Your... uh... butt?



Now, I honestly don't belive everyone goes to heaven. There is a Hell, and people DO go there, but...

In John 14, he is talking to his disciples, not the 12 apostles, which means everyone who spreads his doctrine.

About John 1: Any knowlogable Christian knows that God reaches out to everyone, you become christian by accepting Him. In verse eleven, he is talking about [the triune] God. By "His own", it then means everyone.

I already disproved your theory on your quote from Romans.



There are three seperate "parts", if you will, to the human being. Body, mind, and soul.

In Psalm 146:4, the hebrew word used for this type of thought refers only to previous thoughts, not all thoughts.

Both John 11:11-14 and Psalm 13:3: Sleep is refered to as the resting state of the body.

Ezek 18:3 is a parable:

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>As I live, says the Lord God, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die. But if a man is [uncompromisingly] righteous (upright and in right standing with God) and does what is lawful and right, And has not eaten [at the idol shrines] upon the mountains nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, has not defiled his neighbor\'s wife nor come near to a woman in her time of impurity, And has not wronged anyone but has restored to the debtor his pledge, has taken nothing by robbery but has given his bread to the hungry and has covered the naked with a garment,...[/b][/quote]

Ok, it's getting late and the words on my Bible are starting to walk off the page, so I'll make the rest quick:

Isa. 53:12: First off, stop quoting just one part of the verse to make your argument stronger. "Soul" is a mistranslation. The word "life" is a better translation.

Eccl. 9:6: Another verse you only partially quoted. The author is using figurative language to emphisize the human body state.

I really don't care about the rest of the stuff, it is irrelevent.

I would like to know what translation you quoted from, would you please tell me?

BTW: All of my quotes are from the Amplified translation, the one that most fully explains the meaning of the words of the original language.

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Originally posted by ShadowNightWing


That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

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No, it's not that I don't believe in god, I doubt His existence. I find more evidence towards Santa Clause not existing, so I don't recognize him.

I consider religion to be a crutch for people lacking in personal will. I'm somewhere between Agnosticism and Nihilism. Anyways, I have been taking up reading the bible as of late. How can I criticize something I've never read? Anyways, it's a strange novel from what I've read so far.

Just to make sure everyone knows:

I am absolutly not trying to presure anyone into any religion. The only reason I am debating is because shadow is attacking instead of teaching, which is not cool. I'm sorry if I offened anyone, please don't take this personal.

I make a motion that from now on religion should only be discussed as a chance for learning and not for debating. Anyone second that?

I second that.

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Originally posted by Berserk Exodus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Berserk Exodus)</div>

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That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

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No, it's not that I don't believe in god, I doubt His existence. I find more evidence towards Santa Clause not existing, so I don't recognize him.

I consider religion to be a crutch for people lacking in personal will. I'm somewhere between Agnosticism and Nihilism. Anyways, I have been taking up reading the bible as of late. How can I criticize something I've never read? Anyways, it's a strange novel from what I've read so far.[/b]

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'tis a strange novel...isn't it?

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Originally posted by Berserk Exodus+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Berserk Exodus)</div>

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That's where you're wrong my friend the true purpose of a religous debate is to find consistancy within the original Hebrew Scriptures which most current Bible books are lacking? Anyway why not utilize the Bible considering all words are inspired by the creator.

Let me ask you this Why is it that you do not believe in GOD?

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No, it's not that I don't believe in god, I doubt His existence. I find more evidence towards Santa Clause not existing, so I don't recognize him.

I consider religion to be a crutch for people lacking in personal will. I'm somewhere between Agnosticism and Nihilism. Anyways, I have been taking up reading the bible as of late. How can I criticize something I've never read? Anyways, it's a strange novel from what I've read so far.[/b]

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I am not even going to argue with you.

Good, because theology arguments are a waste of time and of effort.

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Originally posted by dougdrums
OK, I'm going to try to get through this without swearing once...

Acts 2:32-36: \"32: Then Jesus God raised up, and of that we [His disciples] are witnesses. 33: Being therefore lifted high by and to the right hand of God, and having recived from the Father the promised [blessing which is the] Holy Spirit. He has made this outpouring which you yourselves both see and hear. 34: For David did not ascend into the heavens; yet he himself says, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand and share my throne 35: Till I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.\"

Read the whole thing, you doof.

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I felt like I didn't have to read the entire verses I mean this is self explanatory, How can you not see literal meaning of these statement. Oh Unless. You believe in the Trinity don't you? Well that would explain your confusion on this matter The Highlighted words here are what you are missguided on. These two Lords are of course Seperate entities thus the ALMIGHTY GOD talking to his son Jesus Christ. Enemies as a footstool for your feet is not directed toward David but Directed toward Jesus. What are you missing here really? Think about it.

Now on to other issues... Man this is sooo Much fun Im excited..
Okay here we go.

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Originally posted by Dougdrums

Where did you pull that the human soul is not immortal from? Your... uh... butt?

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Okay lets dabble with the word soul for a brief moment.

Soul: Definition: In the Bible, "soul" is translated from the Hebrew ne'pesh and the Greek psy-khe'. Bible usage shows the soul to be a person or an animal or the life that person or an animal enjoys. To many persons soul means the immaterial or spirit part of a human being that survives the death of the physical body. Others understand it to be the Principle of life. But these latter views are not Bible Teachings.

Gen: 2:7 "God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man cae to be a living soul."(Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.) (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered "soul" is ne'phesh.) Not to hard to figure out eh?

1 Cor. 15:45: "It is even so written: "The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."(So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.)(The Greek word here translated "soul" is the accusative case of psy-khe')

1 Pet. 3:20: "In Noah's day... a few people, that is eight souls, were carried safely through the water."(The Greek word here translated "souls" is psy-khai', the plural form of psy-khe'.)

Josh. 11:11 "They went striking evry soul[Hebrew ne'pesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword."(The soul here is shown as something that could be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)

Gen.9:5: "Besides that your blood of your souls [or, "lives";Hebrew, from ne'pesh] shall I ask back." (Here the soul is said to have blood)

I told you this was fun. Moving on.

Anyway Im not attacking I can't help your level of sensitivity, thats something you're going to have to work out yourself.

There is no dichotomy[division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepes [ne'phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person... The term [psy-khe'] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepes. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being."__New Catholic Encylopedia(19670, vol.XIII, pp.449,450

"The Hebrew term for 'soul' (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses...., signifying an 'animated being' and applicable equally to nonhuman beings....New Testament usage of psyche (soul) was comparable to nefesh."____ The New Encyclopedia Britannica(1976), Macropedia, vol.15, p.152

"The belief that the soul continues its exstence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in the Holy Scripture."____The Jewish Encyclopedia(1910), Vol.VI p.564

Your Beliefs are True Christendom's Belief Dougdrums

"The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen[died 430 c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine[died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature... His [Augustine's] doctrine...owed much (including shortcomings) to Neoplatonism."

"The Concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought.... Following Alexander's conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.'___Dictionnaire Encyclopedique de la Bible(Valence, France; 19350, edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p.557

"Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato." ___Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, P.35

I think you get the point because I can go on busting you up all day just on this soul issue. Give me something to work with you're killing me here. NEXT!!!!! Once again you have wisdom beyound your years.

Hey Listen up William Icedawg Lucius and everybody else you guys gotta take all that outside Im trying to teach here..BAWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


As from the Infamous word of...

ALRIGHT STOP! HAMMER TIME.
Everytime you see me the Hammers on a role
Even with my head sticking out the Zipper hole.

Wait a sec. how did that happen up there I posted twice? on the same thing Impossible.

you're right; this is getting off-topic. i'm going to move the off-topic posts into "The Lounge."

alright, my personal views on Heaven/hell. To me, Heaven could not be Heaven if everyone I loved in life was not there. It's fair to say that almost everyone in life is loved by someone, regardless of how they conduct themselves. Do you see where I'm going with this? I couldn't eternally rest if someone I cared greatly about was residing for eternity in hell. I could understand those who led immoral lives having to endure a sort of limbo for a transient period of time--so as to finally learn what they were supposed to learn in life--but i cannot imagine indefinite banishment.

Yeah I can understand that. The thing that keeps me sane on the whole concept is that (just my beliefs I don't believe that My Family will utimately go to Heaven but I believe that they will be resurrected Thats kinda my keepsake I guess. I would love for them to be in Heaven myself. And who knows I could be totally wrong about everything I've written Im just giving my opinion anyway based off of what I've learned and come to understand.

Theres a ICE-DIGGTY DAWG I Mean... ICE DEPUTY DAWG WITHIN THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Ok, yes, this is getting retarted. It's becoming arguing for the sake of arguing. I didn't think you were attacking me personally, I was just standing up for paperdoll.

Quite honeslty I really didn't see how you were "busting me up". Your refrences are loose, and it is all just personal opinion.

(I'm still interested in what translation you are reading from. Not stating one makes it apper as if you were just pulling this off of some website.)

FIrst off...Doug, change your stooopid muffin, I have to scroll across the screen to read replies and it's really annoying. For Christ's sake, find a pic of a smaller muffin!!!!

OK

yay, it got smaller ^_^ How did you get that huge thing on anyway, isnt there like a maximum size?

HEAVEN

Here's the deal with the Bible and seemingly contradictory statements bout heaven and hell...

Both, Heaven and Hell, exist at the same time here on earth. This is called suffering.

There is no separation. We live in a world where pain and pleasure readily define eachother on whims. The balence of growth and entropy is the origional history of the Christ incarnation. Buddhists are familiar with the stories of Boddhisitavas whom saw the pain, saw the suffering and could not comprehend why it is everpreasent...the answer to this is in the old testament and other religious origion stories of heaven and hell.
(i am not going to quote the Bible simply because it is the same as many other religions that I believe are the same. People do NOT believe in religions they believe in themselves)

God, in the war for heaven when Satan first rose to power through entropy and destruction, rejoined hisself with eternity (from a more conscious ego spirit) and upon doing so found that the side effect of creation existing in nothingness was that they must balence one another. Thus, to contiue existing, God scattered entropy evenly throughout the entire universe. That is why antimatter exists in all things, just minutely small.

Thus...I say that everything is recycled energy here, nothing leaves the planet save through true transcendence...that is one level above what Christ achieved (!) -although, I think returning to help save the planet is much more honorable then going to heaen.

BUT Jesus Christ WAS NOT the true savior, the Messiah.

If the MEssiah would have come back, we would have ALL transcended to heaven! SO, that is why we all wait for the savior, to save us ALL.

We all recycle and reincarnate into infinite forms of energy throughout the planet until then. Over and over, our bodies return to the earth to be eaten as grass, eaten by plants, eaten by cows, eaten by humans, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc et cet c

so, heaven is REAL but the catch is that it is intertwined with heaven until the TRUE Boddhisitava Christ incaranation, savior of all humanity, comes to save the earth, and Eden returns...

just some thoughts, hehe

Makes somes sense..but I dont think we infinitely reincarnate on the earth, or this plane. There comes a point were a soul can leave the pshysical plane behind and pass on to next plane and the next and the next and so on and so forth. Achieving enlightment for several times , so we better call it semi enlightment or something. Until one reaches the core of the cosmos, there were all energy comes from and all energy shall return(we are energy but we agree on that). Returning to the core, the nothing there, complete merging with it could be compaired with total enlightment, or heaven. Long way to go there though..

stuff that i've read okay :-


i think that it is stated (unsure by whom) that there are seven planes of exsistance.
this world is the first.
the body is only a vehicle for the soul and when you pass away if you have learnt what is neccessary for YOUR OWN SOUL (and not what other people/souls are being taught etc) then you move onto the next plane.
if not, reincarnation occurs back onto this plane and your soul starts again (so to speak)
this is why some people believe they have past lives. this is why perhaps some people suffer terrible things to them that they believe are not warrented.

people (souls) get what they deserve, are taught what is needed and thats they way it goes. how can you move on anywhere if you haven't learnt your lesson?

there is so much more than just what you see/hear/feel now.

people miss the big picture so often.

7 planes,yes, some occult ideas say the same, I think I stated it some time ago aswell..you mean this 7?:

1. Physical Plane (which includes the Etheric Plane)
2. Astral Plane
3. Mental Plane
4. Buddhic Plane
5. Atmic Plane
6. Anupadaka Plane
7. Adi Plane
8 (if you count it as plane) Core

Together, the cosmos. But they are so abstract, no need to think about most of them yet

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Originally posted by dougdrums
Quite honeslty I really didn't see how you were \"busting me up\". Your refrences are loose, and it is all just personal opinion.

(I'm still interested in what translation you are reading from. Not stating one makes it apper as if you were just pulling this off of some website.)

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Actually its called the New World Translation. Take a look at it if you can get the chance to get a hold of one. See ya around

wow...im not gonna even touch this thing...you guys would hate me -.-

...tho i suppose this was an arguement over heaven/hell to begin with, which makes it harder since you automatically assume that the written Word is truth (the one and only), and is flawless...

I 'gree with WhiteStripes there (dougdrums). ANYONE can take scriptures out of context in order to prove a point. In order to be interpretted correctly, you have to read them in their full context... So much is UNCLEAR and CONFUSING to people (especially those unfamiliar with the text) when you take out scattered bits and pieces of the BIBLE and put them together to create some kind of equation that may not even be there... I agree that the Bible (no, not the NWT) is infallible, but the knowledge of it should be in your heart -not just used as a reference book to recite and regurgitate.

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Originally posted by ShadowNightWing

Actually its called the New World Translation. Take a look at it if you can get the chance to get a hold of one. See ya around

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There's a major part of the problem right there. :P As far as I understand, the New World Translation is only accepted by the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses which orthodox Christianity has claimed as heretical and allegedly containing false prophets (there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...

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Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>

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I 'gree with WhiteStripes there (dougdrums). ANYONE can take scriptures out of context in order to prove a point. In order to be interpretted correctly, you have to read them in their full context... So much is UNCLEAR and CONFUSING to people (especially those unfamiliar with the text) when you take out scattered bits and pieces of the BIBLE and put them together to create some kind of equation that may not even be there... I agree that the Bible (no, not the NWT) is infallible, but the knowledge of it should be in your heart -not just used as a reference book to recite and regurgitate.

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Actually its called the New World Translation. Take a look at it if you can get the chance to get a hold of one. See ya around

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There's a major part of the problem right there. :P As far as I understand, the New World Translation is only accepted by the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses which orthodox Christianity has claimed as heretical and allegedly containing false prophets (there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...[/b]

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Actually thats half correct. They did make a prediction but not of that nature. Mostly all people of Christendom make that presistant mistake in them because they truely don't understand thier beliefs. Thier prediction in regards to Christ return is only fullfilled once everyone of the inhabited Earth has been Wittness to. Bet you've had one knock on your Door before, probably more than once. Anyway of course Orthodox Christianity wouldn't except the NWT because for one Their beliefs are Christendom and not truely Christianity. Lets take the belief of the Holy Trinity which states that 3 are 1 this is not believed to be true. And thier Bible isn't consistant with the original Hebrew Scriptures.

1) I was referring specifically to those who make false predictions concerning dates, etc. and claim to be speaking on behalf of God (hence they are false prophets...) I know that many people have made the mistake of predicting Christ's return. This is a mistake that the scriptures say identifies false teachers and prophets. Concerning oneself with the when and wheres of Jesus' return only distracts from the truth. Eschatology is a big topic, but not many have studied it enough to know how to accurately interpret Biblical prophecy.
2) I understood that the Watchtower was applying specific Biblical prophecies to what was occurring and then "going to occur" in the late 70s or early 80s... (see link below)
3) Yep, I 've spoken with many door-to door salesmen. And as soon as they see that I will be a challenge to convert, they head out the door -how's that for someone who claims to care for my soul? I won't be another notch on someone's conversion belt...
4) In other words all of "Christendom" as you put it , is not "true Christianity" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians :roll: (and religion). That mindset is characteristic of cults -especially ones that have only been around for less than a few hundred years.'
5) "Not believed to be true" -by who? I've been in the trinity "debate" with too many Jehovah's Witnesses in the past... I really don't feel like going there again right now but there are a couple sights below... My experience is that the NW Translation has doctored scripture from original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to fit there own doctrinal stance -not the other way around. Here are a couple sights that may be interesting to note...
http://www.mts.net/~acts1711/Trinity_Doctrine.htm
http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/falseprophet.htm

lol,

if the scriptures are 'literal' (whatever that means)

call me a Gnostic !


Philosophically why 'truth' and 'literal' are false words:

There is a thing (undefinable)
there is the observer whom defines a 'truth' by defining the thing.
the problem with that is, every 'thing' is defined by its opposite.
sometimes by a complex web of opposites
language, like programming, is a series of 0s and 1s yes and no
over and over, more and more detailed
rhetoric is indecipherable due to slang
once 'thing' is 'truth' its 'opposite' automatically exists
slang IS 'truth' now!
definitions are broad
words have many meanings to many different people
thus

there are separate perspectives automatically involved in definition

1) the object ('thing')
2) the person defining it
3) the person defining the first definition
...and these 3 loop infinitly...till...enlightenment

so the 'literal text' is never truth or lie, it is always a mix of BOTH
always
humans r this way it is out heaven/hell here
the word virus nothing makes sense no words are real

just old metaphor

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Originally posted by evangel
1) I was referring specifically to those who make false predictions concerning dates, etc. and claim to be speaking on behalf of God (hence they are false prophets...) I know that many people have made the mistake of predicting Christ's return. This is a mistake that the scriptures say identifies false teachers and prophets. Concerning oneself with the when and wheres of Jesus' return only distracts from the truth. Eschatology is a big topic, but not many have studied it enough to know how to accurately interpret Biblical prophecy.

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I never recalled the Witnesses ever giving a date of Christ's return. What I do recall is more or less the fact that we are living in what is called the Last days. The Wittnesses understand that this system is utimately coming to an end in regards to events unfolding that Christ spoke of, which is a sure sign of signs to look for before this system ends. Everything that Christ has mentioned is currently playing out right now. Witnesses draw reference of practicing true Christianity in the way Jesus has previously not speaking on Gods behalf. Unlike most religions they never make claims that God has spoken to them and told them to do anything. They follow the footsteps of Christ teachings and not beat around the bush. Jesus said: I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things,\" (John 8:28) He stated:\"I have come in the name of my Father.\"(John 5:43) Jesus also said which Im well aware that you already know: \"He who speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory.\" Here's one for you in regards to your False prophets. Matt.24:24: \"False Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs [\"Miracles,\" TEV-Miracle Crusade Benny Hinn Ring a bell?] He is recongnized in the Bible as a false Prophet. Jesus gave us signs to look for in regards to his return, so why should we not concern ourselves with his arrival?

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Originally posted by Evangel
2) I understood that the Watchtower was applying specific Biblical prophecies to what was occurring and then \"going to occur\" in the late 70s or early 80s... (see link below)

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This is what I understand also but yet I still do not see a Specific date mentioned which the Witnesses never gave. They are merely following the signs which Christ gave direction to look for, which are not just signs from the 70's and 80's but the signs that have progressed to worsen even in this 21st century. And they will get worst. The 911 Attacks is probably going to be a walk in the Park compared to what Satan has in store next. Satan knows his time is coming soon so he's unleashing a fury unlike anything we've seen.

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Originally posted by Evangel
3) Yep, I 've spoken with many door-to door salesmen. And as soon as they see that I will be a challenge to convert, they head out the door -how's that for someone who claims to care for my soul? I won't be another notch on someone's conversion belt...

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Thats funny \"salesmen\" I don't recall Wittnesses selling anything. And no they do not sell the Watchtowers because you see Wittnesses giving those out for free everywhere. Grocery stores, train stations, etc... you name it they are thier. And I don't believe that they would run away because they felt you were a challenge do you realize how many individuals they talk face to face with on a daily basis? Your beliefs would not pose as much of a challenge as someone who doesn't believe in God at all. Why are they salesmen to you? Because they come knocking on your door dressed in a suit? Mostly people turn them away.

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Originally posted by Evangel
4) In other words all of \"Christendom\" as you put it , is not \"true Christianity\" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians :roll: (and religion). That mindset is characteristic of cults -especially ones that have only been around for less than a few hundred years.'

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Cults huh? Well lets discuss this cult thing that the Witnesses always gets labled with. A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that empahsizes devotion according to prescribed ritual. Many cults follow a living human leader, and often their adherents live in groups apart from the rest of society. The standard for what is orthodox however should be God's word, and Jehovah's Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible. Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people. The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Eph:4:5 says there is \"One Lord, one faith.\" Jesus stated: \"Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it... Not everyone saying to me \"Lord, Lord\" will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.\"-Matt.7:13,14-21 See also Cor:1:9-11.

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Originally posted by Evangel
5) \"Not believed to be true\" -by who? I've been in the trinity \"debate\" with too many Jehovah's Witnesses in the past... I really don't feel like going there again right now but there are a couple sights below... My experience is that the NW Translation has doctored scripture from original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to fit there own doctrinal stance -not the other way around. Here are a couple sights that may be interesting to note...

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Doctored Scriptures? How can you Doctor the orginal Scriptures. Explain to me this, how many times is Yahweh mentioned in your Bible? Your Orthodox Christians recognize this name as the name of the Almighty Father. My question to you is how many times do you see this name in your Bible? I want to see consistancy The King James version does not produce this consistancy let alone even use the name Yahweh or Jehovah. Yeah the names there but only some 7 or 8 times. Why isn't the name mentioned in constant structer as the Hebrew Scriptures? The Trinity would be a great disscussion Lets talk about it shall we? This is going to be a while also so get ready for a long discussion about the Trinity. I just want to know if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are coequal then why does Mark 13:32 states No one know of that day or tha hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, and if you sugguest the Son was limited by his human nature of not knowing then Why did the Holy Spirit not know? I leave it there for you to ponder with for a while. Talk to ya later.

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I never recalled the Witnesses ever giving a date of Christ's return. What I do recall is more or less the fact that we are living in what is called the Last days.

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The Watchtower has published assignment of specific prophecies (see link on previous page) According to the Watchtowers interpretation of scripture we are in the last days. Every generation of Christianity (or Christendom as you put it) since Christ's ascension has believed themselves to be living in \"the last days.\" Hebrews 1:1,2:
\"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.\"

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Everything that Christ has mentioned is currently playing out right now.

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According to which interpretation?

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Unlike most religions they never make claims that God has spoken to them and told them to do anything.

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Some research on past Watchtower publications may help you to see otherwise...

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They follow the footsteps of Christ teachings and not beat around the bush.

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\"beat around the bush?\" I'm assuming you mean something like \"uncompromisingly\" or without \"watering down\" Christ's teachings? Maybe you could clarify.

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so why should we not concern ourselves with his arrival?

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I believe that I should be ready for Christ's return at all times whether he comes back today, in 10 years, or 1000 years from now... It is not that we should not study and know prophecy concerning the end times, but that we should have a firm understanding first of salvation, grace, justice, love, sanctification, and other basics before trying to decipher the prophets, which are the most difficult to understand of all the books of the Bible. My point is, we should always be ready and not be distracted by when and where.

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Satan knows his time is coming soon so he's unleashing a fury unlike anything we've seen.

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I would agree with that.

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I don't believe that they would run away because they felt you were a challenge do you realize how many individuals they talk face to face with on a daily basis? Your beliefs would not pose as much of a challenge as someone who doesn't believe in God at all. Why are they salesmen to you?

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I didn't say they run away. I said they would leave. I have met with them, set up meetings with them, etc. However, when they realize that I am strong in my beliefs and understanding of scripture, they seem to realize that I am not \"an easy convert,\" so they mark my house and never come back. Yes, I know how many people they talk to every day. I believe that many of them, like other religious leaders simply do this out of a requirement or compulsion of the leadership rather than out of a love for Christ or a true concern for souls. It's more like a job, thus I see them to be similar to salesmen.

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I wrote: 4) In other words all of \"Christendom\" as you put it , is not \"true Christianity\" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians :roll: (and religion). That mindset is characteristic of cults -especially ones that have only been around for less than a few hundred years.'
You wrote: \"The standard for what is orthodox however should be God's word, and Jehovah's Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible.\"

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I agree (with the first part), problem is, Jehovah's Witnesses use their own unique translation of the Bible (which by itself should raise a red flag for any skeptic) Not to mention, different people interpret the scriptures differently - as you know. That statement, therefore, is moot since you're preaching to the choir.

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Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people.

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If you use those specific characteristics to define what a cult is, then they are not, but I define them as a cult, specifically because they teach that in order to be saved you have to be a member of their church, then they proceed to dish out several requirements that creates a works based rather than a grace-based salvation.

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The Bible does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Eph:4:5 says there is \"One Lord, one faith.\" Jesus stated: \"Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it... Not everyone saying to me \"Lord, Lord\" will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.\"-Matt.7:13,14-21 See also Cor:1:9-11.

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Preaching to the choir again... :roll:

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Doctored Scriptures? How can you Doctor the orginal Scriptures.

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By using inconsistent methods of interpretation and interpreting according to preconceived doctrine, rather than utilizing standard hermeneutical methods (which are standard for secular, relgious, or agnostic).

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Explain to me this, how many times is Yahweh mentioned in your Bible? Your Orthodox Christians recognize this name as the name of the Almighty Father. My question to you is how many times do you see this name in your Bible?

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All of those questions are loaded with assumptions... Firstly, one needs to have a working knowledge of the original language (Hebrew) -which yes, I do have. The name \"Yahweh\" and the name \"Jehovah\" are one and the same. If you had a knowledge of Hebrew, you'd know that. Hebrew does not use vowels (there are no letters representing vowel sounds like English has), thus the only difference in the pronunciation \"Jehovah\" and \"Yahweh\" depends on the insertion of vowels. Jehovah's Witnesses, seemingly arbitrarily choose EE, OO, AH instead of AH OO EH (Jah-Weh). This is tangential at this point, but it's at least worth mentioning since so many Jehovah's Winesses seem to like to press this point (without having a working knowledge of Hebrew, I might add).

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Why isn't the name mentioned in constant structer as the Hebrew Scriptures?

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The above should shed some light here...

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if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are coequal then why does Mark 13:32 states No one know of that day or tha hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, and if you sugguest the Son was limited by his human nature of not knowing then Why did the Holy Spirit not know?

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The Holy Spirit was not mentioned in the passage you mentioned. I WOULD say that the Son was limited by his humanness As far as what I would mean by co-equal...
Example: A man and his wife are "coequal" in their humanity (their nature)yet their roles (as prescribed by the scriptures) dictate that women should be submissive to their husbands in many aspects. Does this make them less human? Obviously not. Women are equally human. Similarly, the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit are equally Divine (equal in nature). This is only an analogy, thus it is obviously not going to explain all. Explaining the trinity is the same as trying to explain or define God himself... Scripture, however points numerous times to the doctrine of the trinity (yes I know the word "trinity is never used in the Bible!). I suggest you take a look at the links I gave. They would probably answer any question you would pose to me -and without clogging this thread unnecessarily.

w00t fer evangel!

Okay Evangel this is getting exciting shall we proceed?

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The Watchtower has published assignment of specific prophecies (see link on previous page) According to the Watchtowers interpretation of scripture we are in the last days. Every generation of Christianity (or Christendom as you put it) since Christ's ascension has believed themselves to be living in \"the last days.\" Hebrews 1:1,2:
\"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.\"

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You never answered my question. I wanted you to show me of a specific date mentioned that gave reference to this statement here.

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there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...

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So once again if you please produce a date to back this up.

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Everything that Christ has mentioned is currently playing out right now.

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According to which interpretation?

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Im referring to the last days? How can you not see the things going on around you? Remember the various aspects of the sign are recorded at Matthew chapers 24,25 and Mark 13, also Luke 21. What you are reading in those books are the signs currently playing out in our time. Unless I missed something I believe alll of these signs Christ has mentioned are currently going on today. So yes this includes your interpretation also unless you fail to see whats really going on in our world.

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Some research on past Watchtower publications may help you to see otherwise...

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Once again produce the evidence to support this statement. I've read plenty of Watchtowers and never have I seen anyone saying that God has spoken to them Directly.

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beat around the bush?\" I'm assuming you mean something like \"uncompromisingly\" or without \"watering down\" Christ's teachings? Maybe you could clarify.

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I mean their works are consistant. Why aren't you going door to door preaching the news of the coming Kingdom? I mean you do believe it's coming right. Jesus Christ did it.

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My point is, we should always be ready and not be distracted by when and where

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By nature we are human beings programmed this way. If I told you \"Hey Evangel Im bringing you Two Plane tickets to Tahiti to stay in a 5star resort for 3 months and Five Hundred Thousand dollars spending money\". The first thing you're going to say is \"When?\" As a matter of fact there isn't a person on this planet who's not going to want to know when they will recieve those tickets and Money. Human Nature. Its a beautiful thing.

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I believe that many of them, like other religious leaders simply do this out of a requirement or compulsion of the leadership rather than out of a love for Christ or a true concern for souls. It's more like a job, thus I see them to be similar to salesmen

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I highlighted that because thats your safe zone. See thats only what you believe, Im giving you the facts. It is not a requirement it totally up to them if they want to do field service or not. No one recieves pay for going door to door, so how can it be more like a job. I don't know about you but I would rather get a check for working a Job. For something someone has a passion or love of course they will do it for free. And also that above statement makes me futher realize that you never even spoken to a witness maybe for a couple of minutes but thats it. Because if you can say that they do not have love for Christ then you never spoken with them. Thats the reason why they go door to door because they are excited about Christs return in the future. And if they were not concerned for souls then why are they wasting their time coming to your door?

Oh and what does preaching to the Choir mean?

I cannot get to every point because I gotta get back to work. but I will concentrate on this last one because I like this one alot.

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All of those questions are loaded with assumptions... Firstly, one needs to have a working knowledge of the original language (Hebrew) -which yes, I do have. The name \"Yahweh\" and the name \"Jehovah\" are one and the same. If you had a knowledge of Hebrew, you'd know that. Hebrew does not use vowels (there are no letters representing vowel sounds like English has), thus the only difference in the pronunciation \"Jehovah\" and \"Yahweh\" depends on the insertion of vowels. Jehovah's Witnesses, seemingly arbitrarily choose EE, OO, AH instead of AH OO EH (Jah-Weh). This is tangential at this point, but it's at least worth mentioning since so many Jehovah's Winesses seem to like to press this point (without having a working knowledge of Hebrew, I might add).

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Yes I agree one does need to have working knowledge of the Hebrew language and no you do not have. Tell me this What in this particular paragraph below gives you indication that I do not know that Yahweh and Jehovah are the same names?

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Explain to me this, how many times is Yahweh mentioned in your Bible? Your Orthodox Christians recognize this name as the name of the Almighty Father. My question to you is how many times do you see this name in your Bible? I want to see consistancy The King James version does not produce this consistancy let alone even use the name Yahweh or Jehovah. Yeah the names there but only some 7 or 8 times.

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I don't think you read the full question I asked you. You seemed to have chopped it up and left out the part which shows you specifically that I am well aware that the name Yahweh and Jehovah are the same, tis is a clear example that shows how many have chopped up the origianl scriptures thanks for producing that. Anyway moving on.

You say you have working knowledge of the Hebrew Language huh? No human today can be certain how Jehovahs name was originally pronounced, because as you are well aware Biblical Hebrew was originally written with only cononants, not vowels right? When the language was in everyday use, readers easily provided the proper vowels. In time, however, the Jews came to have the superstitious idea that it was wrong to say God's personal name out loud, so they used substitute expressions. Centuries later, Jewish scholars developed a system of points by which to indicate which vowels to use when reading ancient Hebrew, but they put the vowels for the subsistute expressions around the four consonants representing the devine name. Thus the original pronunciation of the divine name was lost.

Many scholars favor the spelling \"Yahweh\", but it is uncertain and there is not agreement among them. On the other hand, \"Jehovah\" is the form of the name that is most readily recognized, because it has been used in English for centuries and preserves, equally with other forms, the four consonants of the Hebrew Tetragrammation.

J.B. Rotherham, in The Emaphasised Bible, used the form \"Yahweh\" throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. However, later in his Studies in the Psalms he used the form \"Jehovah.\" He explained: \"JEHOVAH-The employment of this English form of the Memorial name... in the present version of the Psalter does not arise from any misgiving as to the more correct pronunciation, as being Yahweh; but solely from practical evidence personally selected of the desirability of keeping in touch with the public ear and eye in a matter of this kind, in which the principal thing is the easy recognition of the Divine name intended.\"(London 1911) p.29

After discussing various pronunciations, German professor Gustav Friedrich Oehler concluded: \"From this point onward I use the word Jehovah, because as a matter of fact, this name has now become more naturalized in our vocabulary, and cannot be supplanted.\"-Theologie des Alten Testaments, second Edition(Stuttgart, 1882), P.143

Jesuit scholar Paul Joucon states: \"In our translation, instead of the (hypothetical) form Yahweh, we have used the form Jehovah...Which is the conventional literary form used in French.\"-Grammaire de l'hebreu biblique (Rome, 1923), footnote on p. 49

As you are aware Evangel most names change to some extent when transferred from one language to another Example Evangel would be pronounced (ee-Ban-ger') in Japanese, Jesus was born a Jew right? and his name in Hebrew was perhaps pronounced Ye-shu'a', which Im sure you know, but the inspired writers of the Chrisitan Scriptures did not hesitate to use the Greek form of the name I'e'sous'. In most other languages the pronunciation is slightly different, but we freely use the form that is common in our tongue. The same is true of other Bible names. How, then, can we show proper respect for the One to whom the most important name of all belongs? Would it be by never speaking or writing his name because we do not know exactly how it was originally pronounced? Or, rather, would it be by using the pronunciation and spelling that are common in our language, while speaking well of its Owner and conducting ourselves as hsi worshipers in a manner that honors him? Do you have a close relationship with anyone whose personal name you do not know? For people to whom God is nameless he is often merely an impersonal force, not a real person, not someone that they know and love and to whom they can speak from the heart in prayer. If they do pray, their prayers are merely a ritual, a formalistic repetition of memorized expressions. Which brings me back So how many times does the name \"Yahweh\"or \"Jehovah\" appear in your bible?

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The Holy Spirit was not mentioned in the passage you mentioned. I WOULD say that the Son was limited by his humanness As far as what I would mean by co-equal...
Example: A man and his wife are \"coequal\" in their humanity (their nature)yet their roles (as prescribed by the scriptures) dictate that women should be submissive to their husbands in many aspects. Does this make them less human? Obviously not. Women are equally human. Similarly, the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit are equally Divine (equal in nature). This is only an analogy, thus it is obviously not going to explain all. Explaining the trinity is the same as trying to explain or define God himself... Scripture, however points numerous times to the doctrine of the trinity (yes I know the word \"trinity is never used in the Bible!). I suggest you take a look at the links I gave. They would probably answer any question you would pose to me -and without clogging this thread unnecessarily

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Wow Evangel Im sensing Hostility. You've stepped on my beliefs pointed out Fabricated links which to me are the works of Satan,about my beliefs then the moment I explain them to you, you wanna say we are clogging up this thread unnecessarily. Ummmm have you forgotten I created this thread and you and I have been discussing these topics with no interference, So who am I clogging this thread up from? Dude if you don't want to discuss any futher I would rather you just come out and say it don't use smoke screens to make it as if we are wrong. When you and Lucius was discussing religion you didn't make a statement of that magnitude. I respect your beliefs and faiths but when someone make assumptions about what I believe in then I it is my \"PASSION\" to open thier eyes. And yes I read up on that garbage that you've linked me to, just like I said earlier \"Satan.\" Whoever wrote that does not know anything about the Witness its falsyfied and just down right wrong. How can someone claim to be a Christian and put something up on the web like that? That is not an act of true Christianity.

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Similarly, the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit are equally Divine (equal in nature).

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And this statement here is contridictory to your beliefs I would've sworn that the Holy Trinity mean they were all one in the same. Now if you are saying that they are all equally Divine then no they are not all equally Divine. I would say they all posess power but no one is more Divine than the Almighty Father Jehovah. How can they be co-equal on any level if one is limited which means you put limitations on Jehovah and he has no limitations. It doesn't make sense. Im going to leave it here if you want to continue then Im game, if not and you feel like you need a way out then its cool just don't put up crap like we are clogging up the thread with nonesense we are talking about Christ, Bibles, The Almight Jehovah, Christianity in General and you say we are clogging the thread up unnecessarily Please don't do that I hate when people half-step. I look at that as a form of cowardness. Just come out and say I don't wanna do this anymore.

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There's a major part of the problem right there. As far as I understand, the New World Translation is only accepted by the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses which orthodox Christianity has claimed as heretical and allegedly containing false prophets (there was a prediction of Christ's return and the end of the world by them in the early 80s - which never happened)...

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This is your first statement, which put you in the game and now that the heat is on you wanna run away from it. Finish what you started!

And look how Haruko is looking at you in Disappointment

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Originally posted by dougdrums
w00t fer evangel!

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Thats to be expected you're upset because I had to break you down. I couldn't do this debate with the likes of you anyway you're just a little too emotional. And im starting to have second thoughts on Evangels emotional control.

Has anyone played the game telephone - with a large group of peaple you say a word and say it to the person to your left as fast as you can. the last person has a completley different word than the original. My point. Think of a doctrine that has been passed on for thousands of years. How miconstrude it would become. Then you talk about a book that everyone wants to change the contents, to fit their own needs. Now how can anyone truley beleive that the Bible today is what it once was?

Very valid point Howetzer and I truely agree with you.

if any of us take part in our culture we are automatic contradictions, and that is what I find very spectacular and funny bout all this.

CULTure idolism material possesion

i pray 3 times a day, but i still have to work to make money...

jesus would dissaprove

i go to church and all i feel is dismay for all these poor brainwashed people who go to work EVERYDAY and ruin their lives earning money ALL YEAR ROUND instead of having REAL families with LOVE. Work and you'll go to heaven, the Republican way to God is cranking oil products out like drugs for the new consumer world. earth is part of God, too.

i love earth...we should stop arguing and remember that all our religions came from the same place and help it get better....she's so sick. can't anyone feel that?

i almost puke when i go through Dallas or Denver, my stomach, my eyes, all the wasted resources all the slums all the drugs, this place is wasted on IDOLISM. I feel things are about to rapidly decay in the cities...hell, they already are.

Midgar remains...

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You never answered my question. I wanted you to show me of a specific date mentioned that gave reference to this statement here.

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A specific date is unnecessary. My POINT is that published accounts exist that name an approximate date of the end of the world... which never came to pass. If your going to talk about \"not answering questions\" you need to go back and look at previous posts... I posed several questions and never got answers for them.

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So once again if you please produce a date to back this up.

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See above. I would suggest checking the annals of the Watchtower publication from the late 70s to the early 80s if you're really interested in an answer.

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... this includes your interpretation also unless you fail to see whats really going on in our world.

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I'm not so quick to apply meaning to prophetic scriptures, especially in light of the many generations before us that have done the exact same thing, only to die with the realization that he still had not come back. I'm not saying we should not be ready or vigilant... I'm saying that we should not use methods of scriptural interpretation that are without consistancy and much prayer.

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never have I seen anyone saying that God has spoken to them Directly.

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I never said that God spoke to them directly.

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I mean their works are consistant. Why aren't you going door to door preaching the news of the coming Kingdom? I mean you do believe it's coming right. Jesus Christ did it.

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Jesus never did \"door-to-door\" preaching. He taught his disciples, in sermons, and in the temple. As far as the \"coming Kingdom\" I have a very different interpretation about what the kingdom is. This is another tangential issue that deserves its OWN FOCUS. We are arguing too many different points here. We need to pare down to a few of them in order to make sense to one another.

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...when they will recieve those tickets and Money. Human Nature. Its a beautiful thing.

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Curiosity is good, but if Christ wanted us to know when, specifically, he would have told us by now.

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Oh and what does preaching to the Choir mean?

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You are telling me what I already know... Again, in a convo like this, it should be primarily from your heart. Quoting scripture verses (especially from the (NWT) will gain you no ground.

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Yes I agree one does need to have working knowledge of the Hebrew language and no you do not have.

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Actually, I've taken three semesters of Hebrew as part of the requirement for graduation from college.

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tis is a clear example that shows how many have chopped up the origianl scriptures thanks for producing that. Anyway moving on.

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:roll:

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How, then, can we show proper respect for the One to whom the most important name of all belongs? Would it be by never speaking or writing his name because we do not know exactly how it was originally pronounced? Or, rather, would it be by using the pronunciation and spelling that are common in our language, while speaking well of its Owner and conducting ourselves as hsi worshipers in a manner that honors him?

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It is not the name itself, but the meaning of the name (who that name represents) that is important.

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Wow Evangel Im sensing Hostility. You've stepped on my beliefs pointed out Fabricated links which to me are the works of Satan,about my beliefs then the moment I explain them to you, you wanna say we are clogging up this thread unnecessarily.

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It is obvious to me that your motives for asking the questions are not to receive an answer but to display some sort of superior knowledge or for who knows what. That is why I think it's clogging. If you really wanted answers, there is a whole lot of academic theological research done. I am not here to display that I know more than anyone else. It is obvious we are not going to solve centuries of debate. So my point is, we should go to anpther forum more suited to religious debate (of which there seems to be no end) rather than distracting from lucid dreaming...

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When you and Lucius was discussing religion you didn't make a statement of that magnitude.

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Lucius spoke to me directly and he and I FOCUSED ON a PARTICULAR ISSUE rather than going out on several tangents at once - encouraging confusion or miscommunication. He also did not ignore my questions to him, then expect me to answer his.

All I'm saying is it would be better to focus on \"the trinity\" or \"False prohecy\" or \"eschatology\" simply because we are biting off a lot and not chewing it enough to swallow... let alone digest. I am trying to learn. Not show my superior understanding.

I think the concept of Hell is wasteful and I'm not sure whether or not it exists. I think in God's grand plan all souls will be saved and brought into him, maybe there is some kind of reincarnation for those who do not achieve salvation on their first try or something. I don't think anyone knows except God himself.

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Originally posted by Evangel
A specific date is unnecessary. My POINT is that published accounts exist that name an approximate date of the end of the world... which never came to pass. If your going to talk about \"not answering questions\" you need to go back and look at previous posts... I posed several questions and never got answers for them.

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But you haven't gave indications of any particular publications or anything. Obviously you've read it somewhere right? So I was basically asking for which issue did you pull this from.. you just can't say its from the 1970's to the 80's Watchtower.. You want me to research almost 2 decades of publications? HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND? Do you know how many articles they came out with back then? So I was asking for the exact issue that you can refer me to that gives your statement any credit.. If you can't produce it then that statements invalid to me.. I need to see proof just like any other human being and Im sure you understand that.. Yeah perhaps I did miss some questions but the difference between you and I, is that I tell you what questions you've missed and you don't let me know..

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Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>

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I'm not so quick to apply meaning to prophetic scriptures, especially in light of the many generations before us that have done the exact same thing, only to die with the realization that he still had not come back. I'm not saying we should not be ready or vigilant... I'm saying that we should not use methods of scriptural interpretation that are without consistancy and much prayer.[/b]

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I can understand where so many has fallen short in the past, but lots of events that are currently playing out today didn't play out a half century ago. But I believe that we are close.. As if the Wrath was knocking on the door.

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Originally posted by Evangel@
I never said that God spoke to them directly.

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Sorry about that.. Missunderstanding

<!--QuoteBegin-Evangel
Jesus never did \"door-to-door\" preaching. He taught his disciples, in sermons, and in the temple. As far as the \"coming Kingdom\" I have a very different interpretation about what the kingdom is. This is another tangential issue that deserves its OWN FOCUS. We are arguing too many different points here.

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Jesus word of the Kingdom went from home to home by way of his disciples. Even sending his Disciples out to talk personally to others in town about it.. When Jesus sent out his early disciples, he directed them to go to the homes of the people. (Matt. 10:6-8 11-13).

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Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>

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We are arguing too many different points here. We need to pare down to a few of them in order to make sense to one another.[/b]

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I can keep up just find. I perfer to capture mulitple topics. If its too much for you then I will limit it down to a couple.

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Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>

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Curiosity is good, but if Christ wanted us to know when, specifically, he would have told us by now.[/b]

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He did already explain to us from the signs to look for..

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Originally posted by Evangel
It is not the name itself, but the meaning of the name (who that name represents) that is important.

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Exactly what Im saying here..But if you understand, and are fully aware of the Devine name Jehovah and the meaning of it.. then you should be trying to get answers for yourself in regards to the consistancy of your bible.. Its only fair to you.. Im not against you Evangel Im trying to look out for you...

<!--QuoteBegin-Evangel@
It is obvious to me that your motives for asking the questions are not to receive an answer but to display some sort of superior knowledge or for who knows what. That is why I think it's clogging. If you really wanted answers, there is a whole lot of academic theological research done. I am not here to display that I know more than anyone else. It is obvious we are not going to solve centuries of debate. So my point is, we should go to anpther forum more suited to religious debate (of which there seems to be no end) rather than distracting from lucid dreaming...

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How you figure? Like you can pick me out from an online conversation. Why would I single you out for domination of intelligence from all the other people in this forum? What makes you so special. Get over yourself. Anyway, Yeah since you can't seem to answer any of my questions then I will pick your brain. Because you haven't shown me anything its the same ole' Thing.. And its a shame that people like you are so Weak! Stop looking for a way out of things when it gets too hot for you and don't cut corners thats a sure sign of weakness. Im not going to sugar coat anything for you and I expect the same in return. If you wanna run then run.. Otherwise stop crying about the diverse topics, issues, or whatever.. Be a Man and stand up for what you believe in.. If you cannot stand up for your faith then it's not all that meanful to you in the first place.

<!--QuoteBegin-Evangel
Lucius spoke to me directly and he and I FOCUSED ON a PARTICULAR ISSUE rather than going out on several tangents at once - encouraging confusion or miscommunication. He also did not ignore my questions to him, then expect me to answer his. *

All I'm saying is it would be better to focus on \"the trinity\" or \"False prohecy\" or \"eschatology\" simply because we are biting off a lot and not chewing it enough to swallow... let alone digest. I am trying to learn. Not show my superior understanding.

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I see where you're coming from. Im used to coversing serval topics at once. But for one who cannot do it then yes it would get confusing for that individual. I don't mind sticking to one topic. It's boring but whatever floats your boat.. And if you feel like im not speaking to you directly then thats probably a piece of information you should've kept to yourself. Let me give you a little bit of advise.. This world is not going to move at your pace. You can either keep up with it or get left behind. The choice is yours.

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Originally posted by Evangel
It is not the name itself, but the meaning of the name (who that name represents) that is important.

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How you figure? Like you can pick me out from an online conversation. Why would I single you out for domination of intelligence from all the other people in this forum? What makes you so special. Get over yourself[/b]

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I'm over. You \"picked me out\" because I \"picked you out\" :wink: I'm not special. I'm saying that you obviously are asking questions to see if I can answer (or some other motive) rather than wanting to learn from me.

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Anyway, Yeah since you can't seem to answer any of my questions then *I will pick your brain. Because you haven't shown me anything its the same ole' Thing.. And its a shame that people like you are so Weak! Stop looking for a way out of things when it gets too hot for you and don't cut corners thats a sure sign of weakness. Im not going to sugar coat anything for you and I expect the same in return. If you wanna run then run.. Otherwise stop crying about the diverse topics, issues, or whatever.. Be a Man and stand up for what you believe in.. If you cannot stand up for your faith then it's not all that meanful to you in the first place. [/b]

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This is not about \"being a man.\" I can stand for my faith fine, but I do not claim to be a learned Theologian or to have all the answers. Knowledge is great, but it can be useless. It also puffs up if it is not used for edification. I'm not abpout trying to shame you for your lack of knowledge or show you up... I do appreciate the challenge though :!:

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I see where you're coming from. Im used to coversing serval topics at once. But for one who cannot do it then yes it would get confusing for that individual. I don't mind sticking to one topic. It's boring but whatever floats your boat.. [/b]

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Even two or three is fine, but you failed to answer some of my questions, then accused me of not answering yours. Again, it encourages miscommunication.

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This world is not going to move at your pace. You can either keep up with it or get left behind. The choice is yours.[/b]

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Wow that's profound stuff... :? but It does not apply to keepin a sane online discussion. It is not as if I stop my schedule in order to engage in this conversation.

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Originally posted by Blulanou42
Philosophically why 'truth' and 'literal' are false words:
There is a thing (undefinable)
there is the observer whom defines a 'truth' by defining the thing.
the problem with that is, every 'thing' is defined by its opposite.

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I see your point, but do not agree...

Truth does not need "untruth" in order to exist. It stands on its own.
It is not a thing. It simply IS (I AM).

Oh, and Shadow, I will research the Watchtower and see if I can find the alleged claim of the end of the world...

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Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>

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The posts are still there... All you have to do is go back a page or two on this thread and read again rather than me re-writing the questions again.[/b]

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I checked it out went back to the begining and I didn't see anything that I didn't answer.

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Originally posted by Evangel@
but to me, door to door evangelism is not me.

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Why not? You could reach far more people that way. Everyone doesn't show up for those Mass Sermons, or Miracle conventions or whatever it's called. For instance, Orlando Fl. That guy Benny Hinn who does the Miracle things had so many people at the Orlando convention center that they could not allow the extra 2000 people in for safety reasons. How can those individuals recieve the word? I just feel like you have to go to the Public and not vice versa although its also good to have a large convention where the public does come to you, but I feel like its better to balance out the two. Thats just my opinion. Like you said everyone doesn't do home to home.

<!--QuoteBegin-Evangel
FOCUSING would be better. It's not about \"keeping up\" or keeping \"the game\" going... This is no game to me. I take my beliefs and sharing them with others seriously and do not like arguing just for the sake of argument or display.

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If you see anywhere in this thread where I mentioned this is a game then let me know, because thats not where I see this. I don't recall saying its a game at all. I understand you feel just as serious about this as I do. But Im not twisting your motives around, like you're doing. Im a little more tactful than your average person. Everyones different in life, thats the beauty of Living. The way I get my point across my not be the same as someone else. My background consist of a variety of events which utimately led me to having the aggressive nature that I do have. Not making justifications or anything, but just letting you know a little bit more about my character then maybe you wouldn't twist certain things that I say around.

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Originally posted by Evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Evangel)</div>

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(or some other motive) rather than wanting to learn from me.[/b]

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I know more about your beliefs than you know. I decided to go in another direction aside from your typical baptist, metodist, or non-denominational christan because I saw flaws, in the works of the pastors, preachers..etc.. who was trying to teach. I don't have a particular motive, I am trying to understand YOU! and what is it thats within you and others that... Don't worry about it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Evangel
This is not about \"being a man.\"

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The weakness that I referred to is not limited by the Sex of an individual. Im not talking about being weak as a man. Im talking about the MIND/Human. Actually this ties into what I was going to explain up there in the previous paragraph before I said Don't worry about it.

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Originally posted by Evangel
It is not as if I stop my schedule in order to engage in this conversation.

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Well call me stupid then. I guess I do this. There has been serval occassions where I stopped my schedule to engage in this conversation. Not because it's a game, or its about who has the most knowledge, or anything close to that. I just feel like The Father Takes presedence over everything else in my life. Im not perfect so sometimes I do slip up, but I do acknowledge the exsistance and I do have faith in the unseen and the forgotten. Not only that I agree with alot of what the witnesses believe in but Im not a Witness, I don't go to a Kingdom Hall or anything. I think every true faith is on the right track when the beliefs co-exsist with the Bible. I don't think you're wrong for you faith, I just know that in my heart its not for me, just like you know in your heart the beliefs I hold are not for you. Either way I respect all. I just sometimes like to know WHY?

And also I've learned alot from you from our discussion's in this thread, I got what I wanted here so Im done. but if you ever have any questions on WHY? for me then feel free to ask. Otherwise thanks for replying. :goodjob2:

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If you see anywhere in this thread where I mentioned this is a game then let me know, because thats not where I see this. I don't recall saying its a game at all. [/b]

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I'll quote you:

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This is your first statement, which put you in the game and now that the heat is on you wanna run away from it. Finish what you started! [/b]

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Past questions I asked:

I wrote:

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beat around the bush?\" I'm assuming you mean something like \"uncompromisingly\" or without \"watering down\" Christ's teachings? Maybe you could clarify.[/b]

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you wrote:

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I mean their works are consistant. Why aren't you going door to door preaching the news of the coming Kingdom? I mean you do believe it's coming right. Jesus Christ did it.[/b]

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I'm still not sure what you meant by beating around the bush. \"Their works are consistant\"??? No big deal, though...

I wrote:

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According to which interpretation?[/b]

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My point in asking this question, as you guessed, is that there are literally hundreds of interpretations, even within the realm of those who believe in Christ, not to mention the secular interpretations of the \"end times.\" So for me to simply agree with your interpretation of end times prophecy simply because current events \"seem to fit\" the Word of God is not really sound practice when it comes to scriptural interpretation. My view is that too many people, bitth believers and unbelievers get caught up in an \"end times craze\" if you will, and are thus easily distracted from the core truths taught in the Bible.

One point I brought up was not framed as a question, but was rather a point which you did not address. I wrote:

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4) In other words all of \"Christendom\" as you put it , is not \"true Christianity\" and that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true Christians *(and religion). [/b]

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Since you did not agree or disagree, I assumed that this IS what you believe (that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones with the truth or with the \"true translation\" of the scriptures). I was emphasizing the point that if that is what you believe, (I believe ) this is also a general characteristic of cult-like behavior.

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I decided to go in another direction aside from your typical baptist, metodist, or non-denominational christan because I saw flaws, in the works of the pastors, preachers..etc.. who was trying to teach. [/b]

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Therefore the flaw is not in the teaching itself, but in the teacher. You can't blame \"the church\" or \"the denomination\" or I personally have learned to glean truth from many teachers, even though they themselves may be inconsistant or \"flawed\" as you put it. No man is perfect in his understanding of scripture, so it is God's Spirit that teaches and confirms truth, helping me to sift and discern what is true and what is deceptive doctrine.

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The weakness that I referred to is not limited by the Sex of an individual. Im not talking about being weak as a man.[/b]

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I understand that. But you're making it sound as if we are out to prove some kind of outward superiority.

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I think every true faith is on the right track when the beliefs co-exsist with the Bible. [/b]

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I'm surprised you would make a statment like that Shadow, based on your adherence to a very specific translation of the Bible. It almost sounds like you're glazing it over... :undecided:


Uuuuuuuh.... Shadow? Are you still there? Earth to Shadow, Earth to Shadow... Stumped ya, huh? Oh well :| . Happens to the best of us.

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Originally posted by ShadowNightWing+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShadowNightWing)</div>

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Okay everyone Im back and ready to discuss why I made this statement to paperdoll. Now a lot of you took it as being evil or mean but in actuality its not that. Its just truth. And its mean and evil because of fear.

Lets start off with your statement Lucius.

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Originally posted by Lucius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lucius)

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Ah cmmon..dont tell that girl shes not going to heaven. Thats just mean >_<. Im not going to give my opinion about wether heaven exists or not..but dont tell a person he/shes not going to heaven and is going to burn in hell, all good hearted, nice, honorable persons go to heaven, or get what they deserve, something good. Wether thats trough heaven or karma..or trough the laws of the cosmos..you get what you deserve, and to tell her she going to hell, thats mean.
Shes not.Im leaving my own religious believe sout fo this right now.
but you go to heaven/receive good thing whatever by being a good hearted person, helping out others, being nice for others, raditating positive energy, respecting others, respecting the planet..etc..not being living strictly by the laws of..god? And certainly by telling others their going to burn in hell.. , dont be a meanie [/b]

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I never said she was going to hell where did you get that from? I don’t believe in a Firey tormented hell per-say. The concept of Hell that you are referring to is Non existent to me. This place of torture is never mentioned anywhere in The Bible orginal languages of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic Scriptural writings.

As Paperdoll mentioned she believes in what is stated in the bible right?

Acts 2:34: “David [Whom the Bible refers to as being ‘a man agreeable to God’s heart ‘] Did not ascend to the heavens.”

Matt. 11:11 “Truly I say to you people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” (So it states clearly here that John did not ascend to the heavens when he died.)

Ps. 37:9, 11, 29: “Evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in the Lord are the ones that will possess the earth… The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (This clearly states that all will not ascend to the heavens.)

<!--QuoteBegin-Paperdoll@
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

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Notice that I highlighted everlasting Life.

First lets take this word and play around with it for a brief moment.

Life; Definition: An active condition that distinguishes plants, animals, humans, and spirit beings from inanimate objects. Physical living things generally have the capabilities of growth, metabolism, response to external stimuli, and reproduction. Vegetation has active life but not life as a sense-processing soul. In earthly souls, animal and human, there are both active life-force to animate them and breath to sustain that life-force.

Life is the fullest sense, as applied to intelligent persons, is perfect existence with the right to it. The human soul is not immortal. But faithful servants of God have the prospect of everlasting life in a perfection-on earth for many, in heaven for a “little flock” as heirs of the Kingdom of God.

Is Heavenly Life set out in the “New Testament” as the hope for all Christians?
John 14:2, 3: “In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be. “ (Jesus here shows that his faithful apostles, to whom he was speaking, would, in time, be in his Father’s “house,” in heaven, with Jesus. But he does not here say how many others would also go to heaven.)

John 1:12, 13: “As many did receive him [Jesus], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Notice that the context, in verse 11, refers to Jesus’ “own people,” the Jews. As many of them as did receive him when he came to them in the first century became God’s children, with heavenly life in view. The verbs in the text are in the past tense, so this passage is not referring to all people who have become Christians since then.)

Rom. 8:14, 16, 17: “All who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (At the time this was written it was true that all who were led by God’s spirit were God’s sons whose hope was that they would be glorified with Christ. But this had not always been true. Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptizer would be filled with holy spirit, but Matthew 11:11 makes clear that he will not share in the glory of the heavenly Kingdom. So, too, after the gather of the heirs of the Heavenly Kingdom, there would be other who would serve God as followers of his Son and yet not share in Heavenly glory.)

Now if there is something you are confused about then I would more than happy to shed more light on the scriptures.

<!--QuoteBegin-Dougdrums
Not to be argumentitive or such, I'm just curious about why you say this. ExYOu're right I just don't want her to get dissapointed when her times up. Oh actually she wouldn't be I mean you can't have feelings if you're not conscious. You know what when I come back im going to cross reference some things in your bible Paperdoll just to explain to you why you're not going to Heaven. See ya explanation?

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This statement refers to death.

What is the condition of the Dead?
Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

Ps.146:4: “His spirit goes, out he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts” All his thinking”] do perish.”

John 11:11-14 “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep… Jesus said to them outspokenly: Lazarus has died.” (Also Psalm 13:3)

Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning- itself will die.”

Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul to the very death.”

Eccl. 9:6: “Their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.”

Medical Explanations of Life after Death experiences.

The medical editor of The Arizona Republic wrote: “When physical prowess is at its lowest ebb, as under anesthia, or the result of disease or injury, automatic control of bodily functions diminishes accordingly. Thus, the neurohormones and catecholamines of the nervous system are released and pour out in uncontrolled quantity. The result, among other manifestations, is the hallucination, rationalized after returning to consciousness, of having died and returned to life.” – May 28, 1977,Pg C-1 Also The German Medical Journal Fortschritte der Medizin, No. 41 1979; Psychology Today, January 1981.

Now that pretty much sums a lot up if anyone has any questions in regards to what is written then I would be more than happy to accommodate the answers to such questions.

You have Wisdom Beyond your years. Tom Cruise- I forgot what movie.. I think Top Gun/ or maybe The Firm/then again I think a Few Good Men..[/b][/quote]

Hi, I'm new to this forum.

By reading this post, it looks like you are a christian, ShadowNightWing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
I just wonder what you believe happens when we die, if we don't go to heaven. Do we get a new life, or is we only dead?
Just wondering what you think about it, ShadowNightWing.

Regards,
LDwannabe.

Since the cat appears to have nabbed Shadow's toungue, I believe I can provide at least one answer:

Is Shadow a Christian?

For the answer, scroll back and read the rest of the thread. The answer will become apparent.

As for what happens after we die..I have heard explanations from Jehovah's Witnesses in the past, but wouldn't want to put words in Shadow's mouth...
Shadow
:zzz: :whyme: :yumdumdoodledum: :yumdumdoodledum: :yumdumdoodledum:

Sorry I've been purposely staying away from this theard.

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Originally posted by LDwannabe
Hi, I'm new to this forum.

By reading this post, it looks like you are a christian, ShadowNightWing. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
I just wonder what you believe happens when we die, if we don't go to heaven. Do we get a new life, or is we only dead?
Just wondering what you think about it, ShadowNightWing.

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Yup Im Christian. Evange probably doesn't think so. He thinks Im part of a cult. Now as far as what I believe happens when one dies. I think when one dies he/xhe's uncounscious. With no recollection of anything at all. This period is only temporary until the 1st and 2nd resurrections, and when Jesus Christ bring fourth the new Kingdom and create a New Earth and New Heaven. Death is not a permante thing for any of us. At least not the first death. The 2nd death is another story.

You know, it seems to me like heated argument is doing nothing constructive for this treat. I mean opinions are one thing, but using them to make others look bad is another. I am not trying to be rude in any sense, but I really think that it is not necessary to make baseless accusations about who is or isn't a christian. There is a baseless accusation thread in Senseless Banter.... I'm not a christian, but I do know that one of the key principles of christianity is not judging others...I am pretty sure that goes for other people's beliefs despite them being contrary to your own. Wouldn't it be more effective to respect religious belifs of all people be they radical or not, and agree to disagree? Again, do not take offense, it just looks like there are going to be some hurt feelings in all of this if things get anymore tense......

In the first sentence, I mean thread :D

Ok look it is late and I am tired and new to the forum. But I have a question, dont you two realize you both maybe right in one way or the other? I to believe the bible has been misconstrude over the years since it is about 1,300 or so years old. It is a matter of belief so dont kick eachs other's ass's over it.

When I wake up in the morning I may post more. Depends since you guys post ALOT!

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Originally posted by Nova
Ok look it is late and I am tired and new to the forum. But I have a question, dont you two realize you both maybe right in one way or the other? I to believe the bible has been misconstrude over the years since it is about 1,300 or so years old. It is a matter of belief so dont kick eachs other's ass's over it.

When I wake up in the morning I may post more. Depends since you guys post ALOT!

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[b]Nova
Please feel free to post Nova, I would love to hear others opinions in regards to thier beliefs. Im not saying Im right in reference to all that I have posted here, but this is just my beliefs... thats all. This is what I come to know over the years.

[b]Gwendolyn
You have a very good point Gwen. Thanks for pointing that out. And if you have anything to add on your views please feel free also to post. Thanks! :goodjob2:

Thank you shadow. Well, my view on christianity is simple. I am not a christian, therefore I am not not qualified to talk about it. I don't believe in God and I'm agnostic. I believe in reincarnation. But thanks for asking. :D

Well, I have to agree with Lucius way back in this thread about speaking from your heart.

It's great to have any holy book really touch someone, but to go out and make enemies because of it...no....

We all have free will in terms of beliefs.

I've said a billion times by now that people religious or spritual believes really dont matter anything at all, as long as they dont hurt others with it. ^_^

If there is one absolute truth then thats too bad for that truth, as I will keep on going on and on following my heart, (try)help out others, try to bring peace and harmony, avoid conflict, live in peace with nature and the planet/all, I am a follower of compassion, not of a particular religion(though my religious generally are taken of buddhsim and taoism), and I will continue preaching it forever and will follow it forever, if I burn in hell, I will spread compassion in hell, wherever I'll end up in the afterlife, the next life(I do believe in reincarnation) I will continue this path, as I know it is the right path, for me. And if the god(s) or spiritual beings disagree with that, bring on their wrath, but I know they dont.

What Im trying to say is..Im not afraid to do the wrong thing(well Im afraid to hurt somebody..but I know I dont inside), I know for myself I do the right thing.

Here is my little tao side..when you can speak of religion and spirituality, when you can describe then its not something truely spiritual, true religion cannot be described, it can only be felt with feelings that..yes, cannot be described.

THats just my view..and it will never change(radically, of course one slightly adjusts his views as one learns), and I know alot of people wont change their views either, and thats not my intention. THough its very interesting to me to see and hear other peoples views, its just fun to discuss it ^_^

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Originally posted by Lucius
I've said a billion times by now that people religious or spritual believes really dont matter anything at all, as long as they dont hurt others with it. *^_^ *

If there is one absolute truth then thats too bad for that truth, as I will keep on going on and on following my heart, (try)help out others, try to bring peace and harmony, avoid conflict, live in peace with nature and the planet/all, I am a follower of compassion, not of a particular religion(though my religious generally are taken of buddhsim and taoism), and I will continue preaching it forever and will follow it forever, if I burn in hell, I will spread compassion in hell, wherever I'll end up in the afterlife, the next life(I do believe in reincarnation) I will continue this path, as I know it is the right path, for me. And if the god(s) or spiritual beings disagree with that, bring on their wrath, but I know they dont. *

What Im trying to say is..Im not afraid to do the wrong thing(well Im afraid to hurt somebody..but I know I dont inside), I know for myself I do the right thing. *

Here is my little tao side..when you can speak of religion and spirituality, when you can describe then its not something truely spiritual, true religion cannot be described, it can only be felt with feelings that..yes, cannot be described. *

THats just my view..and it will never change(radically, of course one slightly adjusts his views as one learns), and I know alot of people wont change their views either, and thats not my intention. THough its very interesting to me to see and hear other peoples views, its just fun to discuss it ^_^

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I agree with you, totally Lucius. I am glad you have so much wisdom to offer us. Thank you. I think this thread needed some actual wisdom.

Ok this is what I believe....


[list]That you belive Jesus Christ IS the son of God.
That you Believe he did come to earth and died for our sins so that we may be granted everylasting life in the kingdom of heaven if we believe that he did it.
I believe that the word of God (The bible) is the true word of God.
I believe Jesus is the only way to get to God and live in heaven.
I believe your suppossed to accept Jesus into your heart to wipe away your sins.[list]

Thats what I believe.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
I agree with you, totally Lucius. I am glad you have so much wisdom to offer us. Thank you. I think this thread needed some actual wisdom.

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Okay now that was just wrong.. Why do you think this thread needs wisdom? Because 2 people are not dumb enough to be so easily decieved and small minded to fall into that "I don't believe in GOD crap?".. Come on Gwen. I actually thought you were making sense but now you're just speaking out the side of your neck. Im dissappointed.

To all you people who dont believe in God... Fine I cant change what you believe.... I CAN TRY but I cant force.... I just wish when you people argue that God must not exist that you pulled out some evidence that proves me wrong.

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Originally posted by Nova
To all you people who dont believe in God... Fine I cant change what you believe.... I CAN TRY but I cant force.... I just wish when you people argue that God must not exist that you pulled out some evidence that proves me wrong.

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That is why it is an arguement to no end.
Prove to the people that do not belive in God, that there is one.

Don't people find it very simplistic that if you are raised as a christian you will most likely be a christian. Not all the time of coarse. But how can there be much validity when most people follow a religion just because they were brought up that way.
For example. If ShadowNightwing was raised in a tribe in Africa, would he be a Christian? It cannot be proved because it did not happen, but I personnally doubt it.

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Originally posted by ShadowNightWing+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShadowNightWing)</div>

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<!--QuoteBegin-Gwendolyn

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I agree with you, totally Lucius. I am glad you have so much wisdom to offer us. Thank you. I think this thread needed some actual wisdom.

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Okay now that was just wrong.. Why do you think this thread needs wisdom? Because 2 people are not dumb enough to be so easily decieved and small minded to fall into that \"I don't believe in GOD crap?\".. Come on Gwen. I actually thought you were making sense but now you're just speaking out the side of your neck. Im dissappointed.[/b]

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I'm sorry you are disappointed. Lucius said EXACTLY what needed to be said without making baseless accusations or being cruel to someone. And who is anyone to call another person's belief " Dumb" or "small minded"? My non-belief in god is of no consequence in agreeing with anyone, but since you think I have such a small mind, I'll tell you what I believe. I am agnostic. I believe that after I die I reincarnate. Although I do not believe in God, I do believe in a " Higher being" which connects all life forms to the earth spiritually. I believe reincarnation's purpose is to help us learn lessons. After one life you asses yourself, then go back to try again. I refuse to believe in a God that would make people the way they are, with free will and all to send them to hell after making a few mistakes. I believe in self-realization.

Another interesting thing: What most Christians refer to as mankind's original sin is also symbolic to other people of humans branching from the animals, becoming better. Eve ate fruit off of the forbidden tree and gave some to Adam and gained knowledge. Couldn't an animal have eaten a plant ( hallucinogenic possibly) that led them to a form of self realization which gave them knowledge and they became a higher, more intelligent life form??

As for small minded, call me what you will. I'll love you anyway

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Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>

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<!--QuoteBegin-Nova

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To all you people who dont believe in God... Fine I cant change what you believe.... I CAN TRY but I cant force.... I just wish when you people argue that God must not exist that you pulled out some evidence that proves me wrong.

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That is why it is an arguement to no end.
Prove to the people that do not belive in God, that there is one.

Don't people find it very simplistic that if you are raised as a christian you will most likely be a christian. Not all the time of coarse. But how can there be much validity when most people follow a religion just because they were brought up that way.
For example. If ShadowNightwing was raised in a tribe in Africa, would he be a Christian? It cannot be proved because it did not happen, but I personnally doubt it.[/b]

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For one thing the parents raise their children with there religion because they think it is what is best for there child, Whether it muslin or hinduism.

And your right about he would most likely be a christian, but it is easy to convert people from those kinds of religions And I know I am being bold in saying it, but most of even the elders of those religions dont believe in them.

Reincarnation? I dont know why you believe that......... I have challenged my own religion many times because I dont believe in things being what they absolutely are without som testing. Certianly you know...... nvm....

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Originally posted by Nova
For one thing the parents raise their children with there religion because they think it is what is best for there child, Whether it muslin or hinduism. *

And your right about he would most likely be a christian, but it is easy to convert people from those kinds of religions And I know I am being bold in saying it, but most of even the elders of those religions dont believe in them.

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I did not mean to imply that a parents intent was not for the good of there offspring. What I am getting at is how can one be so sure of his or her religion when the basis of it can be so feable.
And saying it is "easy to convert those peaople". That proves my point even more. If you can be converted ( otherwise brainwashed) into believing somthing else, how much validity does any relgion have?
Someone earlier in the post said it was a crutch. People need an answer for death and through reigion they get it. But if they are happy then more power to them. All in all religion as a whole is a good thing for society.

It seems like a totally valid belief to me. Your beliefs, as mine have Faith invested in them. In that respect, we are the same. I believe that because I feel a connection in my spirit to every other being on the planet. I don't think you can argue that sort of thing within yourself. Like I said, I don't believe in god per se....I believe in a higher being which connects us all. Arguably, it could be a god-like form.....I could accept that....but most people's views of god are not what I wanted my version to be associated with. That's why I believe in it

It is nearly impossible to brainwash some one who is firm in there beliefs and have no doubt.

What I mean by easy to convert is people who understand very little about there own religion because som,thing inside tells them that it isn't right.

I'm not trying to brainwash anyone. I want everyone to have their own beliefs. You change them because you truly believe in what you are changing your veiws for. And I am truly invested in my views. I believe what I believe within my spirit, mind, and body.

Shadow I myself am a little bit disapointed you would call my believes small minded and would imply that I am "easily deceived", regardless, I dont really care.

My buddhistic and taostic god beings and believes are just as good as your christian believes are, not any one of us is more small or open minded because of what we believe, in a spiritual sense.

I was raised among alot of christians(as it is the dominant religion in the west) but I followed my heart and christianity was not for me, but that doesnt mean its not a valid religion, for some people it is the right religion.

Again, I think nobody, I mean nobody should think less of somebodies religion or disrespect it.

And everybody carries their little part of wisdom, including shadow and evangel here, they too brought their part of wisdom into the topic for those that are interested in it. Just like Gwendolyn sees my views as wise some might see theirs as such.

I really dont know what to say about this anymore, just go in peace and harmony, do good to your fellow men and animal. Be good to the planet and not hurt others. Have compassion.

I hardly ever use any real religious terms of my spiritual views of buddhism and taoism, its I act that certain way not because my religion demands so, its because I feel I should do so, regardless of my religion.
I could use fancy words, but alot of people here wouldnt understand it, but when I say compassion, harmony, peace they do, thats what I live by, and frankly my religious views are quite irrelevant, because they dont make me a better or worse person. They are there to guide me, to find myself, and to help me live by those values I have.

I truely mean no offense to the people who disagree with me, I do greatly respect your views and I wish nothing more then you continue to practise your faith, as faith is a beautiful thing. As long as you dont hurt others you're alright in my book. ^_^

Your words have said more than any of mine ever could of Lucius. I completely agree.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn
I'm sorry you are disappointed. Lucius said EXACTLY what needed to be said without making baseless accusations or being cruel to someone. And who is anyone to call another person's belief \" Dumb\" or \"small minded\"? My non-belief in god is of no consequence in agreeing with anyone, but since you think I have such a small mind, I'll tell you what I believe. I am agnostic. I believe that after I die I reincarnate. Although I do not believe in God, I do believe in a \" Higher being\" which connects all life forms to the earth spiritually. I believe reincarnation's purpose is to help us learn lessons. After one life you asses yourself, then go back to try again. I refuse to believe in a God that would make people the way they are, with free will and all to send them to hell after making a few mistakes. I believe in self-realization.

Another interesting thing: What most Christians refer to as mankind's original sin is also symbolic to other people of humans branching from the animals, becoming better. Eve ate fruit off of the forbidden tree and gave some to Adam and gained knowledge. Couldn't an animal have eaten a plant ( hallucinogenic possibly) that led them to a form of self realization which gave them knowledge and they became a higher, more intelligent life form??

As for small minded, call me what you will. I'll love you anyway

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My apologies that was a little off the wall.. I guess I get so wrapped up in people's missunderstanding of the good book, and christianity.. This was the entire basis of Me and Evangels debate.. Everytime I hear someone quote something wrong in regards to christianity its always christendom that they are referring to without their knowledge because they are not informed enough about true christianity..So they tend to link it all togehter. Well Christendom isn't my belief. Just like what you've mentioned about Adam and Eve, as symbolic as it may be we both know it wasn't a real tree that they've taken the apple from. Im more satisfied with the fact that you are not like most Atheist, of those believes that we just happened all of a sudden without no probable cause whatsoever, when all around us is creation this is the basis of our being, our existence, we are made in the likes of the father so we are creators naturally. Im not knocking what you believe and how you believe, I am in no way Like Lucius, I actually care about what peoples belief's are and how they believe and what they think about christianity. This is where I tend to overplay it. Tell me something Gwen what has gotten you so disturbed that you do not believe in the existance of GOD ALMIGHTY? Why because there is so much Chaos in the world? Because we are imperfect beings? Or is it because one thing is promised to us for sure in life and that is death? Oh you and I are really in no way different in reality.. I believe in an Higher Intelligence also.. I don't believe in Hell and I know that when I die I will not go to Heaven. I also do not believe in the Trinity meaning that Jesus Christ the Almighty GOD and the Holy Spirit are all One GOD. There is only one True GOD, thats my belief, and this is the basis of this thread, which should've been titled Christianity vs Christendom so that people can understand the difference. Once again Gwen I apologies about that dumb remark I made, and it was out of line. But Im really interested in understanding why your beliefs are that way. Im an excellent listener. And I Love you Too.

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Originally posted by Lucius
Shadow I myself am a little bit disapointed you would call my believes small minded and would imply that I am \"easily deceived\", regardless, I dont really care.

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I know you don't Lucius, but I actually do care, Im saying that out of concern Im not trying to belittle you in no way. But I have a great concern about humanity as a whole. I care about you, rather you wanna believe that or not.

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Originally posted by Lucuis
My buddhistic and taostic god beings and believes are just as good as your christian believes are, not any one of us is more small or open minded because of what we believe, in a spiritual sense.

I was raised among alot of christians(as it is the dominant religion in the west) but I followed my heart and christianity was not for me, but that doesnt mean its not a valid religion, for some people it is the right religion.

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Lucius you and I have been through this before, and I do respect you, You know that. If you were raised by these so-called christian view-points what was it that drew you away from it? Don't worry you're not alone. I drew away from it also. This form of christendom that is so prominent here in the U.S. is overwhelming and I decieded to investigate and do some researching and just like you I've decieded to follow my heart and take myself away from Christendom, because it wasn't true Christianity. I saw why the vast majority were, because it's supposed to be that way. I could say the same as for alot of people who beliefs are christendom, that they are easily decieved. But Im expressing an opinion out of concern. I would like to hear why you've also taken yourself away from what you were raised under and decieded on an entirely different path. What triggered that?

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But I have a great concern about humanity as a whole[/b]

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I know you do,I know you're a good guy and you believing something else as I do doesnt change anything about who you are as a person. Or as a human, or a soul. In my eyes.

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I would like to hear why you've also taken yourself away from what you were raised under and decieded on an entirely different path. What triggered that?[/b]

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To be honest with you, I dont really know, I cant describe that with words why I choose a spiritual point of view, diffirent, from what was common. To me, it didnt feel right.
Im sorry I dont truely know how to put it, it just didnt feel right, and now it does. The puzzle becomes more and more complete now to me, and I feel very good under it.
Like I said, religion for me, is hard to put under words, its a feeling.

Its strange, its easy for me to describe the way I do things.. but its hard to describr why, and its hard to describe where all this flows from, its a feeling deep inside my heart, and all around me, I found peace with myself and my religion. My goal in this life and all the lifes I shall ever have is to help others, to reduce the pain in this world even a little bit, not to obtain the ultimate religious goal. No matter where I shall be taken, no matter where I end up, I shall live and die by compassion, I will try improve the situation, I will help others, to everything I can. And if my religion is not right, Im afraid that is too bad, I feel I can never be doomed, no, as long as I have compassion, amd love to give. Which I will always have, nobody can take that away from me.

My true dream is to become a bodhisatva, one who is enlighted and could escape the circle of life on this plane, but remains here to keep out helping others out of compassion and kindness. I dont care how long I must stay here, be it a milion lives while all others pass on to new worlds, I will bring forth compassion.

This might sound strange to you, but I am filled with it, and for me there is no other way then that way. And I feel asif Ie already found enlightment(I didnt but sometimes it feels that way). Nothing can stop me, nothing can break me.

I indeed have respect for "the creation" and its people, more then anything, and more then anything I care for it, and thats why, I do, what I do.

The name below my avatar, is a buddhistic god being, he is the manifestation of the emotion, yes, compassion.

if I was a god, I wouldnt care if people believed in me, I wouldnt care if they worshipped me, I would care about if they lived in peace and harmony with eachother, if they dont cause pain to eachother, if they treat their planet with respect. And so on and so forth.

Well, I should stop going on =P You get my point I hope, I really dont know what I am saying anymore. Peace ^_^

Lucius, you have a wonderful heart. I was reading your last post, and it really moved me. I know that my life is worth living when I come across a loving wonderful soul such as yours. There aren't many more in the world. There are many good people in the world, but the world is lacking in people with true altruistic intentions.

Thank you ^_^ Its nice to know that there are people out there who agree with me. Gives me more hope that some day, someday most of the people will think like that, and that human kind will live in greater harmony, all over the world. And I hope that I, and everybody who wants to, can play their little part in achieving that. =)

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Originally posted by ShadowNightWing

My apologies that was a little off the wall.. I guess I get so wrapped up in people's missunderstanding of the good book, and christianity.. This was the entire basis of Me and Evangels debate.. Everytime I hear someone quote something wrong in regards to christianity its always christendom that they are referring to without their knowledge because they are not informed enough about true christianity..So they tend to link it all togehter. Well Christendom isn't my belief. Just like what you've mentioned about Adam and Eve, as symbolic as it may be we both know it wasn't a real tree that they've taken the apple from. Im more satisfied with the fact that you are not like most Atheist, of those believes that we just happened all of a sudden without no probable cause whatsoever, when all around us is creation this is the basis of our being, our existence, we are made in the likes of the father so we are creators naturally. Im not knocking what you believe and how you believe, I am in no way Like Lucius, I actually care about what peoples belief's are and how they believe and what they think about christianity. This is where I tend to overplay it. Tell me something Gwen what has gotten you so disturbed that you do not believe in the existance of GOD ALMIGHTY? Why because there is so much Chaos in the world? Because we are imperfect beings? Or is it because one thing is promised to us for sure in life and that is death? Oh you and I are really in no way different in reality.. I believe in an Higher Intelligence also.. I don't believe in Hell and I know that when I die I will not go to Heaven. I also do not believe in the Trinity meaning that Jesus Christ the Almighty GOD and the Holy Spirit are all One GOD. There is only one True GOD, thats my belief, and this is the basis of this thread, which should've been titled Christianity vs Christendom so that people can understand the difference. Once again Gwen I apologies about that dumb remark I made, and it was out of line. But Im really interested in understanding why your beliefs are that way. Im an excellent listener. And I Love you Too.

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It's quit all right, and I commend you for trying to understand other people's beliefs instead of patronizing them. I'm not disturbed. I believe what I believe because I feel it. Like I have already said, I couldn't be a christian. I don't want myself associated with those beliefs. I'm not being disrespectful. I just couldn't believe that there is a God who would create people, make them like they are and send the ones who aren't " up to par" to hell. It isn't that I don't believe in a higher being. I do. I just don't believe in what you would call. I mean, I don't know why I believe what I do. If I could say it was anything, it would be how I feel the connection with myself I don't think it's fair to you. I mean why wouldn't you believe what you do? Because it's what you believe, right. I'm glad you have strong views. I respect you for having them.

Lucius: Your very welcome. I just could not be happier that there are people like you in the world!

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Originally posted by WerBurN

...tho i suppose this was an arguement over heaven/hell to begin with,

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I was reading a book yesterday, and it somehow reminded me about this thread.
Here is a quote from the book I read:

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Theirs is the misconception that you will not see the Kingdom until you die and go to heaven; that is, IF you go to heaven. This is a false doctrine, according to YAHWEH, for there is no place called heaven and neither is there a place called hell. Your \"heaven\" or \"hell\" are right here on Earth. You create your own situation, and you are either blessed or you suffer for the consequences – right here on Earth in each lifetime.

The Kingdom has already been established, from the beginning, on Orion (the place miscalled heaven). The Kingdom of Yahweh paradise on Earth, however, is not to be confused with some \"heavenly\" place not of this world. It is a physical, literal Kingdom, or government, which will be ruled by Yahweh's people, or Ambassadors, as we call them, under the leadership of the King of Kings and his bride, the Holy Spirit (as we have stated, the Holy Spirit has always been a woman). The Kingdom is a government divinely inspired by Yahweh, foretold by the Prophets, and inherited by those who believe in Yahweh, His Original Laws and commandments and who obey accordingly.
[/b]

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I am not any expert, but I do think this is a book with trustworthiness, since it refers to other sources in the Bible ,etc. several places.
It is a free online book, and can be read here:

http://www.yahwehsnewkingdom.com/yahweh-book.htm

The quotation was from Chapter 14; "THE KINGDOM RE-ESTABLISHED".

If you don't like to read long texts on a computer screen, a PC speak program may be helpful.
Here is a free speak program that will read up the text for you:

http://www.naturalreaders.com/download.htm

This speak program works very well,- IMO.

If this book is right or wrong, I can't tell, but IMO,- it is a book with more trustworthiness than many other books.
But all and everyone have different opinions, of course.

First of all, what is our definition of "heaven" and "good"?

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Thus, the neurohormones and catecholamines of the nervous system are released and pour out in uncontrolled quantity. The result, among other manifestations, is the hallucination, rationalized after returning to consciousness, of having died and returned to life.” [/b]

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And how does such a result logically follow?