Thread: The question of Infinity

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Here is a topic me and brady decided to discuss. It is the question of infinity.
Can infinity ever be reached? Can it be understood? What are it's implications....

Discuss......

First you're going to have to define what you mean by "infinity".

Not too long ago I raised the same question and got ostracized to ask such a question that does not have an answer.

But for the record I would go with the common dictionary usage.
# The quality or condition of being infinite.
# Unbounded space, time, or quantity.
# An indefinitely large number or amount

But I don't mean to speak to you Nirvana.
I hate to use the old ---- We are not meant to understand way out. But after the relentless failings of attempting to even conceive a theory gets shattered, it is where most people end up. That we are sentient beings that are not capable of the understanding of this.

It seems cut and dry why we cannot understand it. The beginning and an end would seemingly be the same thing.
What was before the beginning?
What is after the end?
I am not sure where this would fit into a concept of space and time, but for two opposites
to be the same may have some relevance.
Probably not.

Maybe some Synonyms to get our brains to
endlessness beyond, boundlessness, continuity, continuum, endless time, eternity, expanse, extent, immeasurability, immensity, infinitude, limitlessness, myriad, perpetuity, sempiternity, space, ubiquity, unlimited space, vastitude, vastness

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Can infinity ever be reached?

No, that's kind of part of the definition.

Can it be understood?[/b]

Understood in terms of what? As what?

What are it's implications....[/b]

You're going to have to give a more thorough and precise definition, as Brady said, if you want any sort of meaningful and insightful discussion.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Here is a topic me and brady decided to discuss. It is the question of infinity.
Can infinity ever be reached? Can it be understood? What are it's implications....

Discuss......

Why pick every damn word he says apart? Is this the Bible. You both know what he wants to discuss. Infinity. What are your thoughts. Period.

Hence, discuss.
Put some of your own insight into what you feel missing. It is a discussion for peats sake.

By exploring we know what infinity is. By experience we know infinity can never be attained. At least that is what my non religious more logical part of the brain says.

Howe some on the board naturally have a resistence to anything I put forward. So this reaction is not unexpected.

Firstly why did I create this topic?

This is why. Brady made a statement about god being infinitely knowing. (he doesn't believe this, he doesn't even believe such a thing as "god" by any definition exists)

When I said it can't be reached. He said he wasn't sure that this was true, that it seemed to him like a blind assumption. I am not arguing with brady or his beliefs about god. But I am arguing about what is logical involving infinity here. And we agreed to discuss it.

I proved the IF premise of his statement false (see thread) by saying infinity can never be reached. Keyword. "proved". (And no-one has refuted this yet). He mentioned some people believe that god is infinitely knowing, as if it somehow refuted what I said. If anyone thinks god could be all knowing, this as a result means infinity can be reached. If that is logical I would like for people to explain it to me.

So I put forward this discussion in order we may understand or atleast take a look at infinity. But without the muddy issue of the definition of "god" involved. Without it. This is why it is in the philosophy section and not the religious/spirituality section. To clear up some confusion perhaps. It is a innocent attempt to discuss something and find out about all your beliefs and opinions about this. Nothing more. The conclusion I would like to come to I would hope we can use and benifit from in future discussions on the forum. I will add my thoughts. But more than just my input is desired in the earlier stages of the thread.

I imagine this is quite a complicated subject. Like "free will". It just depends how much people want to think about it, and desire to find out about it.

I don't make threads to argue and try and prove others wrong simply for the sake of my desire, because I do not like them perhaps, or I never want to admit I make any mistakes. Not at all. This is not why I discuss anything. The reason I make threads and discuss things is to find and make truth evident. Nothing more.

Why has my comment been misconstrued as some indication of animosity toward Nirvana? I was simply asking for clarification which, in fact, tends to improve discussions, not hinder them. There are different aspects of "infinity" - the purely mathematical, spatial, temporal, or, as Nirvana Starseed seems to mean, intellectual. It would be rather irrelevant for me go into a mathematical explanation of how one-dimensional and two-dimensional infinity are mathematically equivalent if the question was posed with regards to the attainment of knowledge.

I`m non religious therefore i think infinity can best be discribed as an human emotion. Tiresome debates about the excistance of god is a little time wasting altho i do respect the cultural and historical value of religion.

Infinity cannot be percieved, but the concept is easily understood. Something has the quality of infinity if you can take any ammount of it away and there is still some left.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Here is a topic me and brady decided to discuss. It is the question of infinity.
Can infinity ever be reached? Can it be understood? What are it's implications....

Discuss......

It's important to establish a clear concept of just what infinity is before discussing it, otherwise--as you've suggested--people start pondering whether it "can be reached" or not. Then there's the always-dependable group that will suggest infinity "doesn't exist," again because the wrong concept is being used. Simply put, infinity is a direction, not a destination. It can be reached no more than East can be reached.

BTW, you'll need to change your avatar if you'll be staying here with us much longer. Thanks.

If a God were to exist, I'm of the opinion that it could be defined as "all-knowing". This is different from "infinitely knowing". Simply because I think there are only a finite number of things to be known.

NOTE: Nirvana's offtopic reply has been moved to 'The Lounge' (here) so that this discussion can continue.

Originally posted by Belisarius
Infinity cannot be percieved, but the concept is easily understood. Something has the quality of infinity if you can take any ammount of it away and there is still some left.

What if you took out an infinite amount?

The interesting thing about this, within our intellectual parameters...as long as we can define infinity, we can perceive that concept, at least according to the definition. There is no such thing as a definition outside human comprehension, or it would not be called one. Saying we'll never understand is somewhat self-defeating and admits forfeit before exhausting all mental resources, which is a feat nobody has ever debunked.

I believe Nirvana has a preset list of answers to his rhetorical questions, from what I can tell about his history of being rather "spiritual" in nature. I'm just pointing out that I'm aware that this is probably not a question out of genuine curiousity.

Infinity by definition cannot be reached or understood. In order to reach it or understand it, it would have to be something, and in order to be something it would have to be limited, and infinity is that which has no limits.

Whats the opposite of infinity ?

Is it 'zero' (nothing) or 'negative infinity' ?

Originally posted by korothism
Whats the opposite of infinity ?

I don't know about the "opposite" of infinity, but the inverse of infinity is zero.
Or, if there's anybody out there who cares about mathematical rigor and cringed at what I just wrote, the truly correct version is:
lim (x -> infin) [1/x] = 0

Logaritms are cool. In a square inch you can have infinity ^___^ ( an infinitly long line )

Actually it doesn't really make any sense to talk about "mathematical infinity", as if you can limit infintiy to any one thing without totally contradicting the meaning. It makes more sense to call it indefinite, not infinite.

As for the opposite of infinity...if infinity is the acceptance of everything the oppositie would be the negation of everything, i would think.

Originally posted by syzygy
Actually it doesn't really make any sense to talk about \"mathematical infinity\", as if you can limit infintiy to any one thing without totally contradicting the meaning.

Actually, it makes perfect sense, as infinity is a common and useful concept in mathematics, and one with a specific definition.

It makes more sense to call it indefinite, not infinite.[/b]

No, it doesn't. Indefinite and infinite have two very different meanings which should not be confused. Indefinite = lacking definition. Infinite = lacking boundaries or limits.

I understand that infinity is a concept in mathematics and the concept makes sense, but I'm saying that calling it infinity, in the truest sense of the word, doesn't make sense. Infinity has absolutely no limits, so if you then limit it to one thing, such as numbers, space, or time, that is a contradiction. If something is free only from certain limits while remaining subject to other limitations, then it is in the domain of the indefinite, not the infinite. Indefinite meaning not set within limits. And if you are having a discussion about metaphysical infinity then it is good not to get these things confused.

This whole discussion is reminding me of Descarte.

Just because the concept of infinity exists does not mean that anything is actually infinite.

One mathematical definition of infinity is that you can take out a subset of an infinite set that is of the same size of the set itself. I think that you could have boundless numbers that are not like that, however, I probably can't prove that rigorously; I just predict that someday it will be proven...

But as far as numbers go I think that they are all just tools of the mind anyway. Just so long as a set of mathematical principles do not contradict, I am sure that they can be used for something. Like instead of saying "1 + 1 = 3" is "untrue," you could alternatively call it "inconsistant" and therefore never useful.

As far as god having infinite knowledge is concerned, I would think harder about the meaning of "knowledge" than "infinity."

Originally posted by syzygy
I understand that infinity is a concept in mathematics and the concept makes sense, but I'm saying that calling it infinity, in the truest sense of the word, doesn't make sense. Infinity has absolutely no limits, so if you then limit it to one thing, such as numbers, space, or time, that is a contradiction.

Did I state that infinity is a concept applicable and definable only within mathematics? No. And also, defining a thing is not synonymous with binding or limiting it. To state a definition of infinity does not somehow make it "not infinite".