Who here beleives in fate or destiny, that our path through life and the universes entire path is set? My personal opinion on all things like fate, destiny and luck is: "If you beleive there is such a thing, there is."
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Who here beleives in fate or destiny, that our path through life and the universes entire path is set? My personal opinion on all things like fate, destiny and luck is: "If you beleive there is such a thing, there is."
I have a pretty specialized definition of fate, but i guess it still counts as fate. Free will only goes so far, I say.
I don't believe in fate very much.
I mean, I could kill myself now just to prove it wrong. And would that mean that it was fate that I came across this very topic, this very time, and decided to kill myself to prove you fate wrong?
I don't think there'd be any way to tell. How your death affects others might have something to do with fate, though. Your death would mean a lot more than the end of your life, you see. You can't control how your death would affect other events though, which is why I'm more inclined to think that fate has something to do with it.
but coincidence is just as likely. There's no proof that anything in this world is predetermined. Whether or not you believe in it really depends on the way events line up in your life. The only reason I believe in fate is because of the f'cked up things that keep happening to me. If I let fate take over, it seems to work most of the time.
I don't really believe in fate, but the artist in me wants to find fate in my life for dramatic purposes.
I think as someone else said , that fate can be thought of as free will . It all goes down to how much control we really have over ourselves , as in our conscious thought and whether we choose to think things , and if we had the exact same situation we may think differently , or if our brains follow a pattern and we were always going to make a certain decision , whether we wanted to or not .
Ever seen What The Bleep Do We Know? It is pretty much saying how everyone has a considerable amount of control over their lives, other peoples lives, and the universe. It went into alot of other things as well, like how water can be affected by human emotions. Very, very interesting movie. I reccomend to all.
I do not believe in fate, luck or coincidence. All of those take more faith than I can garner.
I DO believe in Divine Will, and free will acting within the constraints of that Divine Will.
An illustration would be the force of gravity. Our free will can move us freely around on surfaces we can balance on or cling to... but it cannot free us from gravity, which is part of Divine Will.
That's a crude example. I believe that destiny is the direct result of our choices within the circumstances of a given moment. Circumstance is Divine Will.
i believe in the existence of things, and the happenings of things, in which i am inextricably involved--my participation affects the process of happening, and the process of happening affects my participation.
I have always wanted to share my thoughts on this topic.
I believe that fate is something you believe or not. It is the thing that you benifit from if you believe in it! Some people are skeptical and say that they wont believe it til they see it, but i dont know about anyone else, but i have seen it plenty of times.
I once kept seeing this same number and it was always on a male. For example, i saw the number 11 as a tattoo, then i saw it on a guys shirt, and i carried on seeing and hearing this number- the next thing i no, my younger brother is born on the 11th!
I think fate is what controlls our life, it is a path that has already been set out for us, and if we go off the path, things happen to push us back onto it again.
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
Assuming that all events are the product of an extremely large string of events stemming from the beginning of the universe, we could state that all things, assuming that all variables are taken into account (impossible for humans), are inevitable and predictable. For example, say that you were to flip a coin and it landed as heads. Though it appears to be a stroke of luck, the reason the coin actually landed as heads was because of such variables as the exact manner you threw it in, the density of the air, the gravity of the body on which you’re on (assuming Earth), and several other variables. With these variables in line, it was mathematically inevitable that the coin would fall onto heads and with all of these variables taken to account, it would surely be possible to predict the result of the coin toss before it happened. The coin flip in turn did not happen as a result if luck but due to a string of events in itself. For example, the reason you flipped the coin with your friend in the first place was in order to decide who would choose the TV channel. This in turn of course happened as a result of you meeting your friend in the first place, which also happened due several events that transpired before that; this is cause and affect. In summarization, you may be familiar with a similar philosophy if you’ve noted the methods of the Oracle from The Matrix.
From this we need to get into the question brought up by quantum physics that basically appears to throw away the suppose predictability of the universe with randomness. However, this is less about randomness and more about the fact that your observation of these laws causes the subatomic particles to react in a different way than they would otherwise; this is also cause and effect. After all, if the universe was truly built on randomness and luck, we could expect the chance of someone simply being transported to Mars as they stepped out the door to actually be present. In summarization, the great hold of cause and effect is what causes me to state that universe is indeed predictable and is therefore governed by fate.
This is basically Chaos Theory, isn't it?Quote:
Originally posted by LunarMoon
Though it appears to be a stroke of luck, the reason the coin actually landed as heads was because of such variables as the exact manner you threw it in, the density of the air, the gravity of the body on which you’re on (assuming Earth), and several other variables. With these variables in line, it was mathematically inevitable that the coin would fall onto heads and with all of these variables taken to account, it would surely be possible to predict the result of the coin toss before it happened. The coin flip in turn did not happen as a result if luck but due to a string of events in itself.
The idea is a system with so many variables and so much complexity that the tiniest shift in a variable early in the system can create dramatically different results at the outcome. Trying to model and predict results becomes pretty much impossible with today's knowledge and technologies, as margins of error cannot be held close enough in the "early" variables to know all of the resulting triggerings and ultimate outcome. Weather and climate models are examples of these types of systems and efforts to model them.
The systems aren't really disordered - they just APPEAR that way to our level of understanding.
People create destiny, fate etc. to give themselves a sense of reassurance. That things are all set and determined. People like this as they can be lazy and not try and change everything as things will fall into place no matter what happens.
It's a delusional philosophy with infinite loopholes.
Things can always be changed. Everything you do influences what will come to be. We have to take the current into our own hands and steer ourselves into the right direction, not let ourselves be pushed without willpower.
First off, I totally disagree with you. I'm a fatalist, though, my version of "fate" probably doesn't match most other people's ideas.Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
People create destiny, fate etc. to give themselves a sense of reassurance. That things are all set and determined. People like this as they can be lazy and not try and change everything as things will fall into place no matter what happens.
It's a delusional philosophy with infinite loopholes.
Things can always be changed. Everything you do influences what will come to be. We have to take the current into our own hands and steer ourselves into the right direction, not let ourselves be pushed without willpower.
You say that human belief in fate is spawned from a desire to be lazy, and just "give up" to the greater force of fate. Okay. This is a plausible argument. However ,yuo've provided absolutely NO argument for why fatalism isn't correct. You've just emphatically denounced it as deleusional with no real backing argument, purely on the basis of the negative impact that holding the belief can have on those who hold it.
Then, you go on to talk about anti-fatalism, or free will, whatever you want to call it. Again, you provide NO argument whatsoever for the "truth" of this belief, and merely make a stream of emphatic statements to the point that we have choice, and can steer ourselves in the right direction. Now, it SEEMS, that the only reason you give for this belief, is because people who believe this, are imbued with more willpower.
Now, I accept that a belief in fatalism, in comparison to a belief in free will, has a tendency to imbue its believers with a lack of will. (This depends, of course, upon your version of fatalism, and your exact beliefs... for me, I do not believe my sense of fatalism has this problem of a lack of will). HOWEVER, to say that fatalism is wrong, simply by virtue of the lack of will that it "creates" (Which is in itself a moot point) is an invalid argument.
This is analagous to a common argument for god's existance: for how shitty would it be if he didn't, and death was final.
My point is that, the distatefulness of a conclusion or the result of an argument, should NOT affect whether that argument, and the conclusion, are correct and valid. You've also committed another falacy of logic: Ad Hominem. You've tried to attack fatalism, by attacking the "laziness" of its believers.
Mmk, give me a valid argument as to WHY fatalism is valid, Meanie. Then I'll deconstruct it for you CK style. ;)
I already posted one 3 posts back.
well, for starters, logically argue how it is that your predisposition towards believing you have free will isn't just your unavoidable destiny...Quote:
Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten
Mmk, give me a valid argument as to WHY fatalism is valid, Meanie. Then I'll deconstruct it for you CK style. ;)
fate and free will are just opinions.
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what is "Free will" free of anyways?
to argue we each start with infinite potential seems foolish...only a few have the potential to be a master composer, or a basketball star.
our genetics limit us.
our social influences limit us.
the laws of nature limit us.
taking those influences into account, it seems one must arbitrarily decide whether they believe any form of choice exists, or whether the combination of those three factors means we are simply a certain composition of liquid with distinct properties flowing through our predetermined channels, some of which might include the illusion of free will.
personally, i choose to believe i have some semblance of choice within the limiting framework of my potential...though in the end, the only choice is to give in to the illusion of maya (a permanent "i" apart from existential patterns), or to realize the only unchanging self is infinite, unbounded...beyond life and death, yes and no, choice and fate.
i strongly feel that each one of us is capable of dropping ego, and embracing this universal self....i guess the question then becomes whether it is inevitable that "we" will choose to drop ego or not.
perhaps the problem is in the way we try to discuss such matters.
ego (the limited, genetic, "human", socially influenced "i") is...
self/god/infinity (the unlimited, timeless, all-pervading, uninfluenced "thou") is...
they have being simultaneously....whether they intersect or not seems to be the question...
forgive the biblical quotation, but some of it is psychologically quite insightful
"If anyone makes an attempt to keep his life, it will be taken from him, but if anyone gives up his life, he will keep it."
these words attributed to jesus, the "son of god", seem apt.
I also watched this film it was recommended to me by a beloved friend.It is worth watching if you can find it. gives us all much to think about.that and waking life..tho I did not really agree with waking life all that much, but I am not a expert on LD ..Quote:
Originally posted by Beef Jerky
Ever seen What The Bleep Do We Know? It is pretty much saying how everyone has a considerable amount of control over their lives, other peoples lives, and the universe. It went into alot of other things as well, like how water can be affected by human emotions. Very, very interesting movie. I reccomend to all.
I believe in fate.
I believe in luck.
I'll believe in anything.
I am the most naïve, gullible person I know.
Oh well.
Hey, maybe you should be a Christian, then?Quote:
Originally posted by Starlite
I believe in fate.
I believe in luck.
I'll believe in anything.
I am the most naïve, gullible person I know.
Oh well.
Awwwwww... but seriously, don't say things like that. :(
Oh Snap!Quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Meanie
Hey, maybe you should be a Christian, then?
Awwwwww... but seriously, don't say things like that. :(
I've also seen "What the Fuck do we know!?" (sorry, the original censored title was so entirely lame) It was very interesting, and to me, believable to some extent. A lot of "quantum physics" which may or may not make someone go crazy by pondering it.
I don't think you can believe all these viewpoints at once, but that you can adopt one if it's comfortable for you. They are all capable of fitting with other viewpoints. Religious and spiritual people tend to be very fateful in their thinking, but I think it can limit one's potential. If you go all "if it was meant to be, it's meant to be" is a pretty passive state of mind that dismisses much determination when it comes to the topic of achieving one's goal. But if that person is happy with it, I won't bother.