To vote or not to vote

Ok this is a little off topic but I had to reply to what leo said. Anyone who refuses to vote because they want to get out of jury duty is a moron. I mean a total idiot. Not only are you giving up your say by throwing away your vote but your also giving up your say by not serving on a jury. Seriously how lazy can a person be? Anyone who would willing give up their vote and the ability to have a direct say in how laws are enforced doesn't really deserve to vote. We are probably better off without them.

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Originally posted by Alric
Ok this is a little off topic but I had to reply to what leo said. Anyone who refuses to vote because they want to get out of jury duty is a moron. I mean a total idiot. Not only are you giving up your say by throwing away your vote but your also giving up your say by not serving on a jury. Seriously how lazy can a person be? Anyone who would willing give up their vote and the ability to have a direct say in how laws are enforced doesn't really deserve to vote. We are probably better off without them.

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I don't believe in elections or our legal system so it's win win for me. So I guess you think you'd be better off without people who disagree with you.

You don't agree with it so you decide you will give up your say and just go along with it? If you disagree with it, thats an even better reason to vote and go to jury duty because thats the only way to change things. Throwing away your say isn't an answer its just giving up and you deserve whatever you get.

I don't care if people disagree with me, but I don't want to hear it if you throw away your vote. When you throw it away your also throwing away your voice. And if your that stupid, then yea, we probably are better off without you voting.

I have a voice. I don't believe a vote is a voice. I don't believe it's worth anything. Idiot one or idiot two. So If I disagree with the system I should go along with the system? That really doesn't make sense. A day I spend voting would be better spent with friends and family making a difference that actually counts. I'm not trying to change the world. Just my corner of it. And voting is the last way to get that done. And again,you think because I don't believe in this system of voting , everyone's better off without me? I work hard and do good to others. I don't see how you could say something like that.

Well its really a moot point. Since you have no say in it because you refuse to take part in it. Thats really the flaw in our system, people like you. Instead of actually voting for the person you think will do a good job you vote on no one and the good candidate loses. Thats why we always get a bunch of morons elected, because of people like you.

You say both sides are idiots so instead of voting for a person you do think will do a good job you stay home and refuse to vote all togather. Then you complain about how our legal system is stupid yet when given the chance to make a direct impact on it you refuse to do so.

I dont think you get it. I don't want anyone in office. Im not giving up because I don't think "my guy" will get in. I don't believe the system is honest. I don't think Gearge W. was elected honestly. Votes are bought and the whole system is corrupt. I don't want to change it though. I want to live my life in peace, which I do. I don't complain about our system. I accept the world as it is and do my best to get by. I don't think going into a voting booth and pulling a lever will change anything. You do, so go vote. I don't, so I won't. Politics are for people who don't believe in the inevitability of change.

So your just going to allow the government to do as it see fits? If it wants 80% taxes you will pay, if it wants to take your home from you, you will give it, if they want to give everyone in the country a $1,000, thats ok. It doesn't really matter to you? If thats true then I stick by what I said, we are better off with you not voting.

When your say you refuse to vote and you refuse to go to jury duty your basicly saying, "I don't care what happens to me, I will let other decide for me". And whatever they decide to do to you, it will be what you deserve.

In my opinion, if you live in a democracy and can vote then, you should definitely vote! I bet if you lived somewhere where you didn't have the right to vote, you'd want to vote.

And refusing to do jury duty is kind of selfish in a way. What if you were wrongly accused of some crime that carries a life sentence or death sentence! Wouldn't you then be glad that trial by jury existed? If no one did jury service then it wouldn't exist and you'd wish it did.

Also you have a better credit rating if you're on the electoral register.

About 90% of Americans don't vote, and out of the other 10% you have to wonder how many people really think about the candidates. There is this big stigma that "if you don't vote democrat or republican, you are wasting your vote". I think if you believe that, you are the one wasting your vote. So many people base their decision of news coverage alone.

I actually think that Bush and Kerry were in the last election together. I don't think Kerry wanted to be president, he just played as a dummy, kept flipping positions, made himself look really bad, in order to make Bush look like the obvious choice. Thankfully the popularity of liberal candidates are on the rise, they got as much as 13% of the votes in some areas, if my memory serves me correctly. If John McCain runs in 2008, he will be my only hope for not voting for a third party candidate.

Call me a weirdo, but I would have rather voted for Hitler than not voted at all, in that election. If I do get jury duty, chances are I will simply see the defendant as not guilty, regardless of the crime. I'll be sure to let the judge know that too.

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Originally posted by Alric
So your just going to allow the government to do as it see fits? If it wants 80% taxes you will pay, if it wants to take your home from you, you will give it, if they want to give everyone in the country a $1,000, thats ok. It doesn't really matter to you? If thats true then I stick by what I said, we are better off with you not voting.

When your say you refuse to vote and you refuse to go to jury duty your basicly saying, "I don't care what happens to me, I will let other decide for me". And whatever they decide to do to you, it will be what you deserve.

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If I thought voting could change any of this I would do it. But I don't believe it has any real impact. There's a lot of things in the world I can't change. No use complaining about it or doing something that I don't believe will have any real impact. If I really believed a vote was worth what it's supposed to I might vote. But like I said earlier, votes are bought and the system is not honest.

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Originally posted by gameover


If I thought voting could change any of this I would do it. But I don't believe it has any real impact. There's a lot of things in the world I can't change. No use complaining about it or doing something that I don't believe will have any real impact. If I really believed a vote was worth what it's supposed to I might vote. But like I said earlier, votes are bought and the system is not honest.

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Why not go to jury duty then? You have a direct impact on the outcome of a trial if you sit on a jury. It only takes one person to set someone free. Sure its just one trial and one person but you a direct and real impact on it.

If you must register to vote in order to be called to jury duty then it's a non-issue for me. I won't be called. If I was called, then I would be truthfull about my view of the justice system, and I doubt I'd be selected. If I was selected I would sit in.

Actually some states select people for jury duty differently than others. Could also be if you have a valid driver licences or if you own a home in the area. Of course you have no say in how they pick the jury because you don't vote, its really only based on luck if you happen to live in one of the states that does it a different way.

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Originally posted by Alric
Of course you have no say in how they pick the jury because you don't vote

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The only difference is I know I have no say.

Well if you think its ok that you have no say and your ready to accept it and give up trying to change anything, thats up to you. People who think its ok that the system is corrupt shouldn't be voting any how.

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Originally posted by gameover


The only difference is I know I have no say.

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If you had a say, you would vote?

As you don't have a say, what if anything are you doing to remedy the situation?

If you wouldn't vote even if it did count, what form of government if any would you prefer?

I'm not doing anything to rememdy the situation. I don't need to. I have everything I need to live a good life. I won't spend any energy worrying about those things. I can have a positive influence on the world in other ways. I can help a friend in need. I can help a stranger who's lost. I can encourage my little sister to play the piano. I can cheer my mom up when she gets down. I can build a family and provide a good life for my kids. That's how I believe in changing the world. That's great if you feel like you're making a difference by voting but I don't. It's what I believe. I'd much rather focus on the things that I think matter.

Sure its not like voting takes a total of about an hour once every 2 years.

Did you even read anything I wrote? Why would I spend even 5 seconds doing something I didn't believe in?

You don't have to, and we are better off for it.

This whole 'vote or not to vote' question is a bit strange to me, seeing as in Australia it is actually compulsory to vote. Personally, I think that if someone has the choice to vote they should, but I see what gameover is saying.

I do, however, strongly support compulsory voting. I know that many people would say that compulsory voting, by definition, goes against the whole idea of democracy - you should be able to decide if you participate in the running of your country or not. Anyway, here's a few of my arguments for compulsory voting:

The best reason for compulsory voting is that it almost eliminates the potential for vote-rigging or mutliple voting. Since 1990 more than 66 million votes have been cast in Australian Federal elections (yeah ok, we're a small country) and out of this 66 million votes, only 71 attempts at multiple voting have been detected. If the incidence of electoral fraud were this low over there, would you then consider voting, gameover? Just wondering, not trying to provoke.

If people are obliged to vote, it might make them consider who they are voting for a little more carefully. It might not; they might just vote the same as their parents or simply scribble on the ballot paper... donkey votes aren't counted anyway.

You are only required to turn up to the polling station, and whatever you do once the ballot paper is in your hands is up to you. You can draw a big penis on it, throw it in the bin and walk away or actually cast your vote. The fine for not turning up is around $70-80 at a guess.

If it is compulsory for all citizens to vote, then candidates are forced to tailor their election campaign to a greater range of voters, rather than focusing on a narrow approach simply focusing on those they know will always vote for them. Everybody is a potential voter. I'm not sure what socio-economic class the average American voter is, but compulsory voting would mean that a much greater and varied voter-base would have to be adressed. This is what I consider to be one of the most important arguments for compulsory voting because it helps to ensure the health of the democracy.

Growing up in aus I guess I'm kind of used to the idea of compulsory voting, but I don't know what you guys think. Arguments I've heard against it are that 'there are lots of dickheads out there that don't deserve to vote' and 'it's against the ideals of democracy to be forced to vote.'

About the first argument: there are people that don't deserve to vote. No there aren't - everybody deserves the right to vote, no matter how much or how little they actually care about how the country is run. Sure, it would be great for every voter to be educated to critically analyse politics, but that's their decision. Maybe most of these people will make donkey votes, who knows.

The second argument: you should not be forced to vote because it's rather authoritarian. Is it? A government that makes sure you exercise your democratic choice in an election doesn't seem too authoritarian to me. If we can accept that we are expected to pay taxes and abide by road rules then accepting that we are expected to participate in the democratic process shouldn't be too hard.


Sorry to preach on like that, but this seems like the perfect thread to do it in. Anyway, thoughts anyone? Would you agree if America introduced compulsory voting Alric? How about you gameover?[/b]

If you make it so they have to write down the persons name when voting, then it may work. Otherwise people will just vote at random. Most people already don't know who they are voting for, but that would make it even worse. If someone is not even going to try and get informed or are just going to vote at random, I really wish they would just stay home. People don't take voting seriously, and thats our biggest problem today.

Compulsory voting does sound like a good idea. I think Alric's got a point though that some people will go in saying, Who is this guy? I like her name so I'll vote for her! And isn't compulsory voting similar to asking someone a question like, Have you stopped beating your wife? If they say yes because they don't it implies they used to, if they say no because they never have it implies they still are. They have to say something but they don't really want to say that, unless they could abstain from answering the question.

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Originally posted by Alric+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric)</div>

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Otherwise people will just vote at random.[/b]

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That is one problem, yes. The 'donkey vote' is where people simply number their candidates 1-10 (or however many) in the order that they're printed on the ballot paper. Of course sometimes this might be their actual order of preference, but most of the time it's simply 'cant be fucked, let's just number them in order.' To combat this in any given election multiple forms of the ballot paper are printed with different orders of candidate, cancelling any effect of the donkey votes. I'd be willing to bet that most people, when faced with a ballot paper would still elect their preferred party candidate as their first preference, no matter how little thought they put into politics. Most elections being decided on first party preferences, this means that at least some form of thought is put into who leads the country by the majority of voters. A small amount of voter apathy is a minute price to pay for some of the benefits compulsory voting can bring.

<!--QuoteBegin-Jess

And isn't compulsory voting similar to asking someone a question like, Have you stopped beating your wife?

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I'm not quite sure what you're saying there, Jess. "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a form of loaded question because, as you pointed out, no matter what answer is given, it can be seen as incriminating. I'm not sure how compulsory voting - or any other form of voting for that matter - is a form of loaded question. If the ballot paper only contains one candidate and the question "do you still strongly support this candidate?" then maybe.

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Originally posted by Alric

People don't take voting seriously, and thats our biggest problem today.

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Having said all of the above, I strongly agree with you there, Alric. It is really, really frustrating when you hear people say "oh who cares, they're all the same anyway." Maybe there sometimes is little difference between candidates policies, but this can only happen if people let it happen... Proper scrutiny of politicians would improve the running of countries vastly, as would more stringent media laws requiring more diversity in media ownership. These days the power of the media to shape political debate is almost scary... a course on how to critically analyse media should almost be taught at every school.

A while ago we had a South Australian state election, which was my first chance to vote. I was pretty stoked about it because I've always been fairly interested in politics and I love watching the news as often as possible. I went out and cast my vote as wisely as I could and came back feeling pretty proud of myself. My housemate, on the other hand, rung up her parents to get them to tell her who to vote for. I couldn't believe it when she told me that not only did she have no idea who she was voting for, but she didn't even know which party had been running the state for the last four years! I actually felt pretty angry about it, because that sort of ignorance allows for politicians to get away with things.

On the other hand, I guess not everybody takes an interest in politics. I don't take a particular interest in car racing, and so I should expect people to take an interest in things that they dont' usually, but a little more attention every now and then wouldn't go amiss.

People act like the only election to vote on is the presidency. Sure we need a third party or more.
HEY. Get involved in your local elections. Then you can make a difference.
I live in a rural town that had a park amendment pass by less than 100 votes.
"MY vote dont count.." I am glad it doesn't, because whomever has that attitude is surely not qualified to do so.
And to get out of jury duty. Think of some more excuses. And go somewhere where you don't have a vote while your at it......lazy ass people. :shakehead2: