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Ok, this may have never occured to any of you, but i am not sure, im new here!
Think about it, say something in your head, why is it in english? does your mind interpret it as english? how does a person who does not know a language think? how do people with other languages think?
Strange...
well my thoughts are in english, obviously, because i speak english. english is the only language i've ever known, and therefore when i think of say: "a rock" i automatically (without any other thought) relate the thought of "a rock" with the word rock.
my personal belief is that a person who does not know a language, merely thinks of pictures or things. the same thing with animals. i think their thoughts and dreams merely consist or noises (not speech) and pictures.
people in other languages would think it there language. althought it may seem awkward to you, you thinking in english is awkward to them.
I think it is possible to think in just pictures, but it takes some practice getting past the part of your brain that wants to give lables (words) to everything.
When you are thinking, you conscience is simply rendering the conceptualised complex in your memory to your consciousness. Anything you think of, as long as you have encountered it before, is conceptualised in a certain sensory percpetion or concept. Thusly, you communicate to yourself in your mind through the learned languages and residual sensory perceptions.
I believe this is the mistake the majority of people make; we are unique because we think and yet we do not know how we think. No no.. we are very intelligent beings but it is largely because of our globablly accepted languages. Your consciousness, what you are thinking right now, is really just a stream of concepts in your memory banks cycling over and over through each moment trying to either understand your stimulus or... essentially vegetate, lol.
I'm really generalising here - if my neurology colleagues saw this they would probably slap me for being so simplistic but the truth is that we have been wondering this our whole lives and it is very difficult to simply convey the evidence in an anecdote.
When we are young...
We have not learned a language yet or conceptualised our feelings into terms that we can communicate with other people.. or to ourselves. We can't say or think "I'm hungry" unless we are taught what it means. Until we learn what it means, we simply go looking for food without any real mandate or conscious thinking, such as "Well, what should I eat?".
I hope this little tidbit is enlightening.
~
Basicly thinking is talking to yourself inside your head. I am quite sure you use the same parts of your brain when thinking about a sentence then when you actually say it, only they you use a few more brain-area's.
And actually, I am dutch, but I do occasionally think in english.
It is just a matter of talking to yourself, a mono-discussion to make things more clear. But not all thoughts you have to 'say' in your head. Where your carkeys were you just 'pling' know.
If you live long enough, as a foreigner in a different country than the one you grew up in, you will soon adapt to the language according to your thinking. You even dream in that language ...
So it must be just a getting used to thing .. I lived in the US for a while and thought in english, even for months after returning to my home country. Afterwards I spent some time in the Netherlands and the same thing happened again - so it was dreaming and thinking in 3 different languages ...
I am not mixing up too often anymore, since it has been several months now after I left the other country ... It still happens though, and it is not just words, but most of the time whole sentence parts that are translated and fit pretty good into the construction. It's like I didn't even start talking yet, but subconsciously already know that the sentence will end in english... or I subconsciously translated the first part into german, while the end of the sentence is not translatable in a way that would fit the sentence construction... or something like that ..
Yea I also sometimes remember words in languages that I don't need it in ..
You don't think in English. That's just light thought, speech-based.
The mind works in conceptual thought. It's the most optimal level of thought and would be the most optimal way to communicate if it were possible. Our subconscious operates in conceptual thought, in concepts. Our dreams aren't made of images, sounds or any other senses - they're all conceptual and interpreted into senses when we recall them.
Though for some reason no one seems interested in conceptual thought in general. Guess there's nothing to be interested in, heh.
You mean conceptual thinking the thinking that expresses the meaning in a perfect way - everything would be said about a memory, if you could express this memory?!
Still - one thinks in a language, since thinking is our tool to deal with those concepts you were talking about - we reflect and then we express ... so as we are able to speak in different languages, we are also able to think in different languages. The languages itself don't even have an influence on which word we think in which language ... a word is a word associated with a meaning, our mind doesn't care in which language a certain association was set... it just remembers the word in the language it was associated with, because of certain circumstances etc.
I always feel I think more in colors. Like, if I remember a certain person's house after the first time I've been there, when I try to remember it I think of the brightness of the house and light and stuff.
Damn, I remember when I was younger I didn't even have to say the words in my head of what I wanted to do or say but I would just think it in a milisecond, but now I have to say it to myself taking more time and I hate myself for that. But I really blame TV for that and also me dreaming about commercials in between of dreams, I hate that the most. Man, I really gotta lay off that huge colorful light bulb.
Although English is not my native language I sometimes think and dream in it. Well, almost half of my life dealing with it must leave some permanent marks in the mind.
I think in English most often when I'm suddenly angry, or upset, or surprised. Then a lots of phrases comes to mind immediately, mainly the curses...I think I'b better leave this page examples-free.
i think in english mostly when i think about talking with people from DW or posting.
and i noticed that when i think in english (in a quite poor english i have to admit) my already weak control on language and policy completely falls.
(desperate try to justify my tendency to be "explicit" while posting)
I do not always think in English. Most of the times I do,but i constantly think in ways that english cant explain. like a very detailed dream which is unexplainably complex. Or The feeling of pure love or pure hate.
You Think in English because you were taught to.
thinking, wondering and knowing is all along the same lines. When you wonder of course you ask your self for example: "why do i think in english?" and you say this to your self only because you know and understand the language. If you do not know language you still have the same thought process as someone who does know language. The only difference is you would be working off of instinct and experience.. you remember what you have done, and retain the information.. therefore you think and reflect on this. It is all based on knowledge. I would imagine that if you did not know any language, your mind would have some sort of way of remembering and some sort of thought process that is similar to language, custom to your self. This is just my thought.. not an expert or anything.
I speak Russian natively, when I am "thinking" in English what this mean to me is I order words like English, or I use English expressions in Russian.... Or vice versa, not actually like "thinking".
I have two brains, a French one and an English one. True bilingual, no translations going on in the head. I also have an English persona and a French one. They are similar but have subtle differences. When in French, I am more out there, joyful. My English persona is more reserved and less confrontational.
I spent years in multiracial software firms, reviewing code written by many different races. It gave me an insight on the minds of different culture. Now believe me, we don’t all think the same way.
I am fairly certain that language does affect the development and the structure of the mind.
There was major differences between the way Occidental and Far Easterners structure their code. The Occidental was more structured but less versatile. The Far Easterners was more fragmented but yielded more efficient result (speed and versatility). One could follow the Occidental code line by line and always know where you were. The Far Easterners code quickly went all over the place until it all came back together at the end. The massive use of global variable was obvious in maintaining the state of the code during it’s progress.
There was also differences (but less obvious) between English code and French code and Italian code, reflecting the hover mentality of the race. Very interesting indeed. (Race omitted) code was less assertive than (race omitted) code. Other race code was way in you face. Also drastically different approaches in detecting and coping with failure (Form none to little to very creative to overkill)
So, one planet with one language, to me, would be a disaster. We’d turn out to be a far less creative and versatile race than we are now.
Do you think it is language? Maybe this is simple cultural difference, not language. I do think that culture effects how you view the world, and solve problems.
This is my question for you.
Well, you think in english because that the only interpretation of the meaning you have at hand other then visual.
Also, sometimes in dreams you will realize that you stop talking (or at least I sometimes do, or at least i've noticed when its happened) and start communicating with DCs through pure meaning. No words involved.
like a example "conversation" of meaning could go like:
-urgeing to jump off cliff
-unwillingness to jump off cliff
-anger at unwillingness
-anger at anger
-more anger
-giving in
Well, language reflects culture or is it the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by peaches
There was a few Anglo Asians in the team. Their code was Anglo style.
I personally think it's the language. If the language is pictographic or metaphorical in nature then your mind will most likely reflect that. Of course, your surroundings (culture) teach you the language so, who knows, it’s the chicken or the egg business again.
A few years ago, I saw a report that compared how Asians and Occidentals analysed a picture. It was of a tiger. The Occidentals concentrated on the tiger. The Asians focussed on everything without adding any priority to the tiger, the main attraction of the painting. This echoed my view on the programming style I had observed years prior.
In Australia, there are still aboriginals that have no concept of numbers beyond One. Ask them how many children they have, the will say not one (if none) or one (if one or more).
They measure time/distance with songs. So, they have hunting songs that they sing while hunting to figure out how long to walk in one direction then another to the hunting grounds (Like the bee dance I guess). Interesting.
So, would the aboriginals and the Anglos think the same way? Would the information be stored in and retrieved from the brain in the same fashion? I’m sure the different areas of the brain would be the same but the way they are used would vary. If you think with music instead of words, the part of the brain used for music would most likely be exercised more often while thinking than the part of the brain used for words. A simplistic analogy I admit. I am too lazy to look up the appropriate brain parts and functions.
This is very interesting to me. What about bi-lingualists? Do this effect how you look at the world? I often dream in Russian, or sometimes people speak Polish (here there are many polacy). Also I dream in English, what language do you dream in?
It's in my first post. First paragraph. When in French, I am more aggressive and anti hive mentality. My English persona is more accepting of authority and group oriented.Quote:
Originally Posted by peaches
Good dreams are usually in my home town and in French.
Bad dreams are usually in English in unknown locations.
I had a few in Spanish (I understood it in the dream only); good ones. And a few in German (same deal); bad ones.
The French dreams are usually the ones I get most lucid and fly in.
Maybe simply you have multiple personalities lol! Interesting your bad dreams are in English, maybe its make you feel less comfortable with them, maybe you think English is evil lol? I ask this question maybe better for you, which "personality" do you view the world in? English or French? Are you group oriented or anti hive mentality (to borrow your words?). How are they reconsiled(? sorry for spelling) in your mind?
Btw have you seen code from Slavic sources?
For multiple personalities, I believe we all have that. Just watch yourself from one social situation to the next, you’ll see that you don’t act the same way. I feel very comfortable with the English even if their view on things differs a lot. Not comfortable enough to live in it though.
Is the English language evil, well, yes, of course it is (hehehe)! How many other language out there are there that you can reverse the spelling and turn a good word into a bag one. (Live Evil, God Dog) (Kidding)
I do flip from one mentality to the next (English to French) readily, choosing the best of both worlds I guess, whatever I feel is best for me. It is sometimes very annoying as I see myself change view a few days after having made a decision.
Slavic code… ummm. Well, not exactly Slavic but many from that general region.
Structured, minimalist functionality, to the point and efficient. It does what it was meant to do, no more, live with it. Would rather write the same code twice, replicating (optimizing) function rather than having one function do multiple things slower. Many one liner “if” statements and crazy “for” loops.