Governing People<>people Governing

Well unfortunately a lot of this post and a sub post to this topic has been lost due to the server issues. icon_confused.gif

I proposed an idea on how to make an America a long lasting nation. Well in hind site, I would like to change that approach all together.
Not America. Any country.

As O&#39;nus has been pointing out the rise and fall of the great roman empire, I think a big difference lies from those times compared to today. As they say, "The sun never sets on the Roman Empire." This is obviously not the case in todays world. However there are a ton of other complications.

So what attributes could a group of peoples have to sustain a long lasting civilization?
Is it even possible icon_question.gif
It seems like History has repeated itself many times over in different form, yet the same result.

How many of us truly believe that 150 years from now many of the powerful nations will exist? In the whole scope of things, that is not that long of a period. Two three generations.

I&#39;m curious as to what could bring America down. The most likely possibly being ignoring global warming? Hm

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Originally Posted by Wolffe

I&#39;m curious as to what could bring America down. The most likely possibly being ignoring global warming? Hm
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If scientist are correct in their current view on global warming then I think it is not just the USA that will fall.
Unfortunately for two reasons I think that GM will have a huge impact. First, if something is happening that is bad for people they tend not to rise up against it if it happens at a slow pace. Second, it may be a case of "never cry wolf". Scientist have been advising against this threat for decades. As with most global and environmental and climate changes a snow ball effect occurs as the problem gets larger, then speeding the process up ten fold.
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If remembered, I wrote out what I thought would be a form of government that could possibly sustain itself.
It was paralleled to that of the cold war era. Which the blue meanie and I never did get to dabble further into. :)

Brainstorming anyone. throw some ideas out there that do not have to include an entire proclamation. Just attributes of a sustainable society.

150 years? Not so long period. These rich nations may be still existing but what kind of life it would be? Look now at all those big cities - where are they going to? Isolation, indifference, increasing idiotizing of masses by media.
If things still progress this way, I would see it as a crowd of bored, stupid elderly women and men crying out for more fun - similar as in this movie "The Running Man".

Howetzer, which cold-war era government are you referring to?

I think we need to be fewer people. And give up strong individualism, more or less. The way things are now, we just don&#39;t have the resources. Now I&#39;m one of those who kind of liked the Brave New World society. Act utilitarianism at its strongest: the masses get their opium and the clever move to Falkand Islands.. :)

Anyway, should we continue to please the masses? Or get rid of them? No doubt about it, the middle class of today will fade, leaving two groups: those who have the intelligence and creativity to make them worth in an increasingly automated world, and those who don&#39;t. What about the latter? Gene therapy? Either we have to fix ourselves somehow, or we&#39;ll have to dump those who can&#39;t make it through the needle&#39;s eye.

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Originally Posted by arh

Howetzer, which cold-war era government are you referring to?

I think we need to be fewer people. And give up strong individualism, more or less. The way things are now, we just don&#39;t have the resources. Now I&#39;m one of those who kind of liked the Brave New World society. Act utilitarianism at its strongest: the masses get their opium and the clever move to Falkand Islands.. :)

Anyway, should we continue to please the masses? Or get rid of them? No doubt about it, the middle class of today will fade, leaving two groups: those who have the intelligence and creativity to make them worth in an increasingly automated world, and those who don&#39;t. What about the latter? Gene therapy? Either we have to fix ourselves somehow, or we&#39;ll have to dump those who can&#39;t make it through the needle&#39;s eye.
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Survival of the fittest in a sense?
The post that was being discussed had been deleted because of our server. :? I had mention an idea of a system, that in a round about way, is very similar to your opinion.
It was not quite as aggressive but two main issue I believe are the root of sustaining a system and both of which you have also pointed out.
Population. In any country, population diminishes much needed resources. It is so evident in Europe, Asia, Africa, and China. The United stated had just reached 300,000 people this past month. China has 1.3 Billion&#33;. The &#39;point three&#39; encompasses our entire region.
With the dwindling of resources, a region would have to act within itself rather than globally and put finances towards alternate means of fuel, I.e. wind, solar, nuclear, etc.
Education is a fundamental way to control population. Very underestimated.

Gene manipulation. Hmmm. I have mixed thoughts on that one. Staying human in an engineering age.
Thanks for your input arh.

Isn&#39;t that "The sun never sets on the British Empire"? Anyway, you could say the same thing for the us. We butt into everyones business all around the world, and we have military bases all around the world, just like both of them.

Whats going to bring america down is itself. Sooner or later we will collapse in on ourself, probably due to lack of money. Our huge debt is what really worries me. One day we will wake up to find we no longer have money.

America will still be here however. I don&#39;t see that changing, even if we become a third world country we will still be America. We just won&#39;t be an empire any more.

By the way that is a nice quote "Either we have to fix ourselves somehow, or we&#39;ll have to dump those who can&#39;t make it through the needle&#39;s eye". Its almost like your not even talking about genocide against your fellow man.

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Originally Posted by Alric

Isn&#39;t that "The sun never sets on the British Empire"? Anyway, you could say the same thing for the us. We butt into everyones business all around the world, and we have military bases all around the world, just like both of them.[/b]

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Yaa. I think your right. :oops:
But I do disagree with your latter statement. Having military bases for regional stability and actually occupying a nation as the British did are two different things. We do not occupy any other nation as far as goernmental control.

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Whats going to bring america down is itself. Sooner or later we will collapse in on ourself, probably due to lack of money. Our huge debt is what really worries me. One day we will wake up to find we no longer have money.[/b]

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This is a very good possibility. I am not well versed in this field but it does not take much to see that our checks and balances do not add up. &#036;

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America will still be here however. I don&#39;t see that changing, even if we become a third world country we will still be America. We just won&#39;t be an empire any more.[/b]

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That is in the event that another nation that still stands would not take the opportunity to take us over.

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By the way that is a nice quote "Either we have to fix ourselves somehow, or we&#39;ll have to dump those who can&#39;t make it through the needle&#39;s eye". Its almost like your not even talking about genocide against your fellow man.[/b]

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That is not for me to defend.
But nature does work most efficiently by survival of the fittest. That does not mean killing off the week is morally right, I am just stating a point. Humans empathy towards the week, weekins a society.

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Originally Posted by Alric

By the way that is a nice quote "Either we have to fix ourselves somehow, or we&#39;ll have to dump those who can&#39;t make it through the needle&#39;s eye". Its almost like your not even talking about genocide against your fellow man.
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I&#39;m sorry if I seem a bit agressive or hostile, but the problem is real. The way society and technology is progressing today, the &#39;common man&#39; will be left superfluous. Just look at the present - if you&#39;re not educated, chances are you work in the service sector, or live off social services. What used to be a normal job is getting more and more the matter of machines, or people paid very low wages.

Take Germanys economy as an example. Unemployment is a great concern, and this costs the country a great deal of money (in social democracies you get money from the state if you&#39;re unemployed). A lot of people just don&#39;t have what it takes to get a higher education. Primary industry or factory work doesn&#39;t require the manpower it used to. What are we going to do with these people?

It&#39;s a social catastrophy, and it won&#39;t change for the better, not in the near future at least. Genocide implies killing, and that&#39;s not at all what I am talking about. But controlling population births is paramount.

Last, I&#39;m not necessarily talking about &#39;surival of the fittest&#39;. Social darwinism does not constitute a loving and caring society, which is an important part of civilization. But there is a limit to how much extra weight we can handle.

You didn&#39;t seem agressive or hostile at all. Your right that we shouldn&#39;t be paying anyone for doing nothing. We shouldn&#39;t be trying to get rid of people either however. Just leave people be and they will find a job. I know they will find a job. If their going to die they will find something to do. handing out money just makes it worse.

The government should help the people. In most countries however, like in america, the people are helping the government. Not even that, the people are the government&#39;s bitch.

Sucks. But politics just about always suck unless when you are on an unhabitated island alone.

America is a horrible country. I would not be suprised if we killed ourself. I know for a fact if the founding fathers came to america right now to check up on their nation, they would be dissappointed, America isnt what they wanted, america is another England (I mean old england not current england, sorry if this offends some people), We go around attqacking anyone we dont like, the government telling us what to do, but this time there is no place to run. we are stuck to roll around in our own feces, trapped in the cage by the amercan government, key in their hands, but never released to the people.

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Originally Posted by Wolffe

I&#39;m curious as to what could bring America down. The most likely possibly being ignoring global warming? Hm
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Economics.

and to touch on the OP... The way will present itself to us... The Earth will throw us into a period where we must adapt to the extremes it&#39;s thrown at us, and we&#39;ll be forced to evolve into a moire stronger and durable species, while at the same time, (thanks to the EXTREMEs we will have undergone) people will have lost much of the pessimism and negativity towards eachother.

I can&#39;t wait till&#39; it happens personally.

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Originally Posted by OneRyt

Economics.

and to touch on the OP... The way will present itself to us... The Earth will throw us into a period where we must adapt to the extremes it&#39;s thrown at us, and we&#39;ll be forced to evolve into a moire stronger and durable species, while at the same time, (thanks to the EXTREMEs we will have undergone) people will have lost much of the pessimism and negativity towards eachother.

I can&#39;t wait till&#39; it happens personally.[/b]

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I can certainly wait.
But IF this is the coarse I disagree with the outcome.
Greed. When push comes to shove and people require necessities it will be suvival of the richest.
People do not care about one another now. That is when many countries are living high on the hog. When these things unfold and we have to look out for number one, that is exactly what people will do.

You get the isolated events (disasters) where communities come together. But That is adversely different scenario.

If you look at it from a cultural level the Roman Empire never actually fell. It just kind of transmuted into other entities: The Church, Imperialistic European states etc...

A lot of what we call modern Western civilization, of which America is pretty much understood to be the flagship, is a continuation of the Roman Empire.

I&#39;m guessing we&#39;d find the same thing with America a few hundred years from now.

Maybe completely changed geo-politically, (I would guess slightly disintegrated) or not even around as the "USA" specifically, but still a very real presence in its culture, ideals and
wealth.

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Originally Posted by OneRyt

Economics.

and to touch on the OP... The way will present itself to us... The Earth will throw us into a period where we must adapt to the extremes it&#39;s thrown at us, and we&#39;ll be forced to evolve into a moire stronger and durable species, while at the same time, (thanks to the EXTREMEs we will have undergone) people will have lost much of the pessimism and negativity towards eachother.

I can&#39;t wait till&#39; it happens personally.
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i agree with you. i think the current paradigm of civilization is coming to a close. Like mentioned in Waking Live, the time it takes for mankind&#39;s evolutionary advancements has been telescoping, getting shorter and shorter, so i think the next one should be coming up soon, and mankind is definitely going to need some new form of government. i honestly think that none of the world&#39;s governments are worth anything right now, so i hope whatever the next evolutionary step is, it affects government and economics, cause the old governments wont work for much longer