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    1. #1
      Member becomingagodo's Avatar
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      Quantum mechanics or physics is the most important aspec of physics, the evidence for this phenomina is endless.
      Well this is just a basic description of what quantum mechaincs is
      . Copenhagen intrepretation is essential to quantum mechaincs. Now if you get a cat and put it in a box, then you attach a device in the box that when radiation is detected it smashes a jar of poison gas. Radiation is totally random and cant be influenced by the external stimulus like heat. What if the probabillity is 50/50 that the radiation will being given off, the cat would have 50/50 chance of being alive or dead before you open the box. This is the strange part quantum mechanics says that the cat is alive and dead before you open the box, but when you open the box their just a alive cat or dead cat.
      This was proven by the double slit test and this is thought to happen, note i dont take the multiverse as quantum mechanics so dont post that rubbish here which has no proof might i say.
      . EPR is really complicated but it simply this that if their is two light photons from one source say the moon, now if they travel in different direction and say on earth someone measured their spin. Now measuring the light on earth will effect the other light even thought their are a huge difference apart. Conclusion everything is connected intill it is measure or everything is one.
      Note the expriment was actually done with neurons but it is thought and proven that it happen to all other matter.

      Now this mean that everything is connected to everything and that when you measure something it changes it behaviour. This is abit of trivia but Einstein the person who came up with EPR said that if this is true then everything is truly random and he also said god doesnt play dice. Well EPR was proved right so everything must be random. Also he said that if this is true the moon only exsist when you our looking at it.

      Once i read about quantum mechanics i knew that all of religion is rubbish.

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      I am intreged by your last sentence
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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      Quote Originally Posted by becomingagodo View Post
      Once i read about quantum mechanics i knew that all of religion is rubbish.
      [/b]
      Yeah same here.

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      Member becomingagodo's Avatar
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      I am intreged by your last sentence[/b]
      Well if you read the bible then read a book like in search of schrodinger cat it becomes apparant how all your assumption are wrong. Well you see i was not always this skeptical when i was a child i believed in all ghost, telekinsis e.t.c. So one day looking for string theory books i came across in search of schrodinger cat put it this way after reading it everything changed and i saw how little i know and how ignorant i am.

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      I apologize, but I still dont see what this has to do with the validity of Religion. Religion talks about there being a Higher mind that Created the Universe. I dont see how that can just be dismised by saying everything is random and changed by the act of observation (wich itself makes little sence to me, because what is observation? )
      Do you see where I am coming from?
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      If the moon only exists when we look at it, did it exist before anyone loked at "it"?
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      You may want to take a look at the movie, "What the bleep do we know?" Very insightful in the regard to quantum theories.
      That is what many of them are > theories. So pardon the term laymen, but scientist cannot even get there head around quantum mechanics at this point much less the laymen. So regardless of what you read, here or watch.. I personally would not make any bold assumptions of, I know!
      The topic on it's own should point to that.

      Einstein worked most of his life proving relativity. In his later years he new as, you suggested, that there was something else. It is a shame he came upon this so late in life, for he worked frivolously to try and make the two work together. Somehow -someway.

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      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      But the slit experiment speaks for itself .
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    9. #9
      Member becomingagodo's Avatar
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      I apologize, but I still dont see what this has to do with the validity of Religion. Religion talks about there being a Higher mind that Created the Universe. [/b]
      Well quantum mechanics suggest their is no such as reality and that it all down to you or you observing the universe that doesnt exsist. See in a quantum universe their is no higher creater their is just you.
      I dont see how that can just be dismised by saying everything is random and changed by the act of observation (wich itself makes little sence to me, because what is observation? )
      Do you see where I am coming from?[/b]
      Well yes but that just ignorance and lack of knowledge. First observation is measuring or observing let say in that above expriment i look in the box i would observe a cat. Observation is just using your senses to respond. scientifically it means this
      ob·ser·va·tion (bzr-vshn)
      n.
      1.
      a. The act or faculty of observing.
      b. The fact of being observed.
      2.
      a. The act of noting and recording something, such as a phenomenon, with instruments.
      b. The result or record of such notation: a meteorological observation.
      3. A comment or remark. See Synonyms at comment.
      4. An inference or a judgment that is acquired from or based on observing.
      Now the scientist during the double slit expriment thought this is impossible so they tried to look what happen by putting a measuring device in one slit. This totally changed the outcome of the expriement they have done this thousand of time and the outcomes the same the act of observation changes the nature of the thing. That how they came up with the copenhagen intrepretation.

      It doesnt make sense that how i knew that all my assumption were wrong and how ignorant i was.

      If the moon only exists when we look at it, did it exist before anyone loked at "it"?[/b]
      I have heard this argument it basically before someone observed the atom did it exsist.
      But the slit experiment speaks for itself .[/b]
      It certainly does, also the EPR expriment talks for itself.
      Einstein worked most of his life proving relativity. In his later years he new as, you suggested, that there was something else. It is a shame he came upon this so late in life, for he worked frivolously to try and make the two work together. Somehow -someway.[/b]
      He proberly would have came up with his theory of everything too.

    10. #10
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      but, what makes the observation itself be an effect. I refure you to the old question: if a tree falls in a forset, and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
      what counts as observation? they eye? an ear? a camera? photo-reactive material?
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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    11. #11
      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by becomingagodo View Post
      I have heard this argument it basically before someone observed the atom did it exsist.
      [/b]
      But if that is correct, then why is telekinesis not possible? And does believing in something make it real? I mean who decided what the moon or a cell would look like, before it was observerd. Or is it just so that the thing we see had a bigger probability of existing than something else instead.
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    12. #12
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      but, what makes the observation itself be an effect. I refure you to the old question: if a tree falls in a forset, and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
      what counts as observation? they eye? an ear? a camera? photo-reactive material?[/b]
      Well it called collaspe of the wavefunction see particle act as seperate three dimensional waves intill they our observed like measuring their electrical field then they become particles.
      The act of measurement causes an instantaneous "collapse of the wave function". This means that the measurement process randomly picks out exactly one of the many possibilities allowed for by the state's wave function, and the wave function instantaneously changes to reflect that pick. [/b]
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Interpretation
      I recommend reading in search of schodinger cat it explain it in laymens term.

      And the above question is stupid okay anything that can measure is a sense, also you need a conscious observer all the measure device experience quantum phenomna.

    13. #13
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      so there is something speciel about being aware that is needed?
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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    14. #14
      Member becomingagodo's Avatar
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      But if that is correct, then why is telekinesis not possible? And does believing in something make it real? I mean who decided what the moon or a cell would look like, before it was observerd.[/b]
      Well controling a particle that telekinesis. But isnt the nature of a particle indetermined and random so i dont see if you can get pass that. Because if you say i what to move a football with my mind how do you truly know it you and not just randomness of the particle.
      His view on the random chance inherent in the universe is famously the direct opposite of Einstein's (in which he stated "God does not play dice with the universe"): "Time is a child moving counters in a game; the kingly power is a child's."[/b]
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus
      I believe in only randomness and chance so i dismiss everything else and believe everything can be explained by chaos theory and quantum mechanics. Like telekinsis is not possible it just a weak concept of randomness that make you believe it true i.e. confrimation based e.t.c.

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      now, does that mean that thought is "chance"?
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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    16. #16
      Member becomingagodo's Avatar
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      so there is something speciel about being aware that is needed?[/b]
      No it just randomness. It impossible to anwser this without going into mathematics that you wont understand so i just explain it like this. The multiverse alternative says that for every decision their is a universe so sinch the big bang their would be uncountable number of universes now this means that this universe will not be that improbable because everything that can exsist exsists.
      Well the dumb anwser would be that nothing is impossible i.e. proved by paradox of a set theory and that something must exsist that I.
      Improbable versus impossible events
      William Dembski formulated the universal probability bound, a reformulation of the creationist argument from improbability,[120] which he argues is the smallest probability of anything occurring in the universe over all time at the maximum possible rate. This value, 1 in 10120, represents a revision of his original formula, which set the value of the universal probability bound at 1 in 10150.[121] In 2005 Dembski again revised his definition to be the inverse of the product of two different quantities, 10120 and the variable rank complexity of the event under consideration.[122]

      In "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences," John Allen Paulos states that the apparent improbability of a given scenario cannot necessarily be taken as an indication that this scenario is more unlikely than any other potential one: "Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion [1 in 6 x 1011]. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been [randomly] dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable."[/b]
      See dont mix randomness and special it silly.

      now, does that mean that thought is "chance"?[/b]
      No it doesnt quantum phenoma have not been obeserved in the brain. However if you mean thought from external stimulus yes it is chance.

    17. #17
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      Why would I not understand?
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by becomingagodo View Post
      Well controling a particle that telekinesis. But isnt the nature of a particle indetermined and random so i dont see if you can get pass that. Because if you say i what to move a football with my mind how do you truly know it you and not just randomness of the particle.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus
      I believe in only randomness and chance so i dismiss everything else and believe everything can be explained by chaos theory and quantum mechanics. Like telekinsis is not possible it just a weak concept of randomness that make you believe it true i.e. confrimation based e.t.c.
      [/b]
      So you're saying that you can fly into space, go around Earth twice while doing a magic trick, for example? I think that saying that all is random is a weak concept, I know that it can be true and it probably is. But why do you bother to live, I mean you arnen't actually in controll of your body, you are just a group of particles that happen to be at that place at the same time, is there anything else to discover? I think that randomness sucks, if it is the "answer" than I'd be much happier with 42 .
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    19. #19
      Member becomingagodo's Avatar
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      I will explain then first of all you have to take into account
      Improbable versus impossible events
      William Dembski formulated the universal probability bound, a reformulation of the creationist argument from improbability,[120] which he argues is the smallest probability of anything occurring in the universe over all time at the maximum possible rate. This value, 1 in 10120, represents a revision of his original formula, which set the value of the universal probability bound at 1 in 10150.[121] In 2005 Dembski again revised his definition to be the inverse of the product of two different quantities, 10120 and the variable rank complexity of the event under consideration.[122]

      In "Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and Its Consequences," John Allen Paulos states that the apparent improbability of a given scenario cannot necessarily be taken as an indication that this scenario is more unlikely than any other potential one: "Rarity by itself shouldn't necessarily be evidence of anything. When one is dealt a bridge hand of thirteen cards, the probability of being dealt that particular hand is less than one in 600 billion [1 in 6 x 1011]. Still, it would be absurd for someone to be dealt a hand, examine it carefully, calculate that the probability of getting it is less than one in 600 billion, and then conclude that he must not have been [randomly] dealt that very hand because it is so very improbable."[/b]
      See things happen and their random.
      Now then double slit exprient shows two things one that measurement change things from quantum to classical. Secondly that everything is connected to everything else like a big ball of superpostion and that the act of observing stops this effect which is the EPR effect.

      Well then just ask yourself who observed the observer? Now this would seem like god because you would need a higher being to observe you. However that a assumption see your assuming that a device cannot collaspe a wavefunction but it can. Now the universe starting with big bang just kept on expanding the wave function intill by probabillity their is life to collaspe them. But like relativity their is one reality to a observer or everything is relative even reality itself. See this universe is formed by observation and chance or constant flux, all our universe is is schodingers equation or heisberg equation. I would go into them if you wamt keeper.

      So you're saying that you can fly into space, go around Earth twice while doing a magic trick, for example? I think that saying that all is random is a weak concept, I know that it can be true and it probably is. But why do you bother to live, I mean you arnen't actually in controll of your body, you are just a group of particles that happen to be at that place at the same time, is there anything else to discover? I think that randomness sucks, if it is the "answer" than I'd be much happier with 42 .[/b]
      I see you been watching too much movies 42 funny. One word Nietzsche.
      Well say that to people who study choas theory
      Chaos has already had a lasting effect on science, yet there is much still left to be discovered. Many scientists believe that twentieth century science will be known for only three theories: relativity, quantum mechanics, and chaos. Aspects of chaos show up everywhere around the world, from the currents of the ocean and the flow of blood through fractal blood vessels to the branches of trees and the effects of turbulence. Chaos has inescapably become part of modern science. As chaos changed from a little-known theory to a full science of its own, it has received widespread publicity. Chaos theory has changed the direction of science: in the eyes of the general public, physics is no longer simply the study of subatomic particles in a billion-dollar particle accelerator, but the study of chaotic systems and how they work. [/b]
      http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html
      I suggest you read more on Heraclitus, not that meant to be a insult it just he explained the universe pretty well.

    20. #20
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
      but, what makes the observation itself be an effect. I refure you to the old question: if a tree falls in a forset, and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
      what counts as observation? they eye? an ear? a camera? photo-reactive material?[/b]
      Good point.
      A distant star, millions of light years away has collapsed. There was no observer, maybe God.
      But hundreds of years later, we observe the light form a star that has not existed for many many years.


      <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Keeper")</div>
      Why wouldn&#39;t I understand?[/b]
      Because you are in the presence of greatness.

    21. #21
      Member becomingagodo's Avatar
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      Good point.
      A distant star, millions of light years away has collapsed. There was no observer, maybe God.
      But hundreds of years later, we observe the light form a star that has not existed for many many years.[/b]
      Common dont give Keeper ideas, in a more personal issue you could argue that someone has to observe the observer and that is god. The last assumption would be consistant with quantum mechaincs and logical.

    22. #22
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      but you said there was no God
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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    23. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
      but you said there was no God
      [/b]
      He never said that there was no god? No religion yes. Quantum physics says there could be a god, but not how we see it with religion like guy/thing in the sky external to us that says do that and this or you will not be with me when you die. If there is a god it would be in us.

    24. #24
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      "in" us?
      "There are people who say there is no God, but what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." ~Albert Einstein

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    25. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
      "in" us?
      [/b]
      Yeah since we are all one.

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