Human Nature/philosophy

[Howie]

As we go about our many philosophical discussion, debates borderline arguments we tend to make relevant what is relevant to us. That is human nature. We are always on the cutting edge of the worst of something, financial collapse, war, morals etc. Any of these examples may or could be true. It seems, IMHO to take on a shift of perspective when you read this: "Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt of authority. They show disrespect for their elders, and love chatter in place of exercise. They no longer rise when an elder enters the room. They contradict their parents, gobble food and tyrannize their teachers." Who in you wildest imagination has said that? My guess was only a century and a half off. Socrates 5th Century BC

[Misoshiru]

o.o You've just spoiled my perfect view of cultured Athenian society where everyone went around discussing Philosophy and Inteligent topics rather than sumbit to a mindless uncultured Society of crap. xD But yeah, What does that show Lol? :S Perhaps revolt in a good way. In an Intelectual manner. Not, 'Yeah i dont care about what you say im going to go watch tv.' ?

[Howie]

o.o You've just spoiled my perfect view of cultured Athenian society where everyone went around discussing Philosophy and Inteligent topics rather than sumbit to a mindless uncultured Society of crap. xD But yeah, What does that show Lol? :S[/b] Hello Misoshiru. I think. It gives us insite to human nature. As we know time changes, does human nature? As we go about our many philosophical discussion, debates borderline arguments we tend to make relevant what is relevant to us. That is human nature. We are always on the cutting edge of the worst of something, financial collapse, war, morals etc.

[Neruo]

I find it funny that for generations and generations old people have bitches about the disrespect of young people. I am quite sure I too will bitch about 'kids these days'

[Howie]

I find it funny that for generations and generations old people have bitches about the disrespect of young people. I am quite sure I too will bitch about 'kids these days' [/b] True. It shows how History repeats itself. Also how important history is. Now If we could only learn from it eeey?

[Sagea]

Every generation deviates from the previous generation's goals and beliefs. But I'm 15 and I'm not rebellious! Ok, in some ways I am... But I scorn the gangstas and people like them. (As they tend to be the most rebellious)

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

I find it funny that for generations and generations old people have bitches about the disrespect of young people. I am quite sure I too will bitch about 'kids these days' [/b] I'm already saying this about kids TODAY! There is no hope left for me....

[LUCIDITY NOW!]

Some may argue that there is no hope left for humankind, so you aren't alone.

[♥Mark]

Does human nature change? I don't know, but if it does, I'd say very slowly. The fundamental aspects of our global civilization still exist in some form even from centuries ago. We still have things like war and hate. It seems like a continuous cycle that I'm not confident that we'll be able to break from any time soon... But yes, I think kids will always rebel against tradition to some extent. Eventually they'll either return to tradition or create something new. Then the next generation, the same thing. That's how our cultures evolve. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I am quite sure I too will bitch about 'kids these days' [/b] Heck, I already do. Bunch a' skateboard riding, emo, goth, loud-music-listening-to, no good, godless vandals!

[Neruo]

True. It shows how History repeats itself. Also how important history is. Now If we could only learn from it eeey? [/b] Yes. I believe it is in my signature. People should learn, but way to often they don't. So many bad things happen over and over again, even if it is so clear (or just in retrospect) that it will just be what happened all over again. Actually the debate or history really is that important I find interesting. I don't disagree that if everyone would have a complete understanding of almost all the history the world would be better. But if no one does, does history hold any value? For instance, lets say you have a political party. Quickly after it gets popular it plunges the country into a totalitarian state. Luckily, after a while (in a special way, for few totalitarian regimes end this way), an other party balances the country out peacefully, and after a while the country is back to a democracy. Lets say the bad party used to have a hand-book full of great ideas, that however didn't get put into use during it's reign. If after for instance 100 that party that just lived barely suddenly gets a bit populair again, should you fear it will lead to a totalitarian state again? Lets say that all the people that love that party really never heard or it's bad past, and wouldn't even agree with what 'their' party have done in the past. That wouldn't make the party bad, even if it had been bad... Point being: History would mean a lot more, but also be a lot more useful, if people actually knew it. If bob and jack both don't know bob's granddad killed jack's granddad, and bob and jack act just like they would have if it never happened, then what 'value' does history have there? Not that history is worthless, far from it, but if people know it, only then it becomes valuable. Unless if jack n bob are big friends, maybe then it is best not to tell them what their granddads did - To actually tell something on-topic. I think human nature is quite the same during all of history. People have always loved, hated, envied, admired, worshiped, discriminated, been curious, have a sense of humor, alot of things are the same for ages. I don't think it will really change much, only maybe in 100.000 years. But Nazi/Stalinist-brainwashing still can really fuck up anyones nature, by the way.

[Howie]

Good points. Thanks for pointing you sigs out Neruo. One that happens to be Socrates as well. Both so very true. I think it is remarkable that a quote can mean so little or mean so much when put on a time line. Had that been said yesterday it is old news. As Socrates said it then it is REALlY OLD news with a lot of bearing to it. All because it was from the 5 century BC. o.o You've just spoiled my perfect view of cultured Athenian society where everyone went around discussing Philosophy and Inteligent topics rather than sumbit to a mindless uncultured Society of crap. xD But yeah, What does that show Lol? :S Perhaps revolt in a good way. In an Intelectual manner. Not, 'Yeah i dont care about what you say im going to go watch tv.' ?[/b] So it shows little in text, yet a lot.... if you think.

[pj]

With three teens in the house and one gone, I have come to view the following as unavoidable and part of the natural course of things: When kids become teens, they begin preparing their parents for their departure. They do this by being increasingly irritating and disrespectful. This is necessary, as if they were all cooperative and loving, they might not get out and start their own families. The way it works, most either end up leaving willingly with their parents' encouragement and blessing or being tossed out on their cans. It has, I believe, been this way since the dawn of man. Either way, nature has done her job.

[Indecent Exposure]

haha, never thought of it that way before. Imran

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

"Yes. I believe it is in my signature. People should learn, but way to often they don't. So many bad things happen over and over again, even if it is so clear (or just in retrospect) that it will just be what happened all over again." yep "Actually the debate or history really is that important I find interesting. I don't disagree that if everyone would have a complete understanding of almost all the history the world would be better. But if no one does, does history hold any value? " re: Big Brother in '1984'...i'd say no value, history becomes subjective People do Seem To learn from history. It is unfortunate that it is always the same people in Power who learn from it and try to take it one step further by looking at such things as totaltarinism and saying "Well, THEY went wrong here, here, and there..so for US to gain the most power, all we have to do is change this here, deceive these here and kill more there." Watch how much the US will sell their Freedom and Liberty while they change the Constitution to 'better' the value of life for its citizens. Eventualy, through seemingly legal and constitutional means, they will have ameneded it into something completely abstract from what it began as. For the People, not for the state. ...

[Indecent Exposure]

I do beleive I should make, "Imran's laws" It would be identical to Godwins law yet not referring to a comparison regarding the Holocaust but refferring to a lengthy attack on the US "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a rant aimed at the United States of America approaches one." whatdya all think? Imran

[pj]

Watch how much the US will sell their Freedom and Liberty while they change the Constitution to 'better' the value of life for its citizens. Eventualy, through seemingly legal and constitutional means, they will have ameneded it into something completely abstract from what it began as. For the People, not for the state. ...[/b] If you look at history from a constitutionalist or libertarian perspective, this is an absolute fact, not a 'rant'. The US has long since broken free of its moorings. The purpose of the Constitution was to limit the power of the federal government - part of which was the recognition of rights that the government was not to meddle in because they weren't the 'granter' of them in the first place. So far, States Rights have fallen, the appointed Senate has been turned into an elite version of the House, we have justified the usurpation of many of our protected rights, and the ultimate fear of our founding fathers - that they were creating an entity which The People would lose control over - has become a reality. Sadly, most of the People of the US seem totally OK with this and would much rather engage in ridiculous battles between "right" and "left" or Republican and Democrat than look at the real problems. THERE'S your Rant Against The United States, supporting your thesis. What any of this has to do with Howitzer's point, I'm not quite sure.

[Indecent Exposure]

that is exaclty what im saying it has nothing to do with his orginal post yet it will always somehoe worm its way into any thread whatsoever and im not saying its factually inccorect im sayings why dooes it alwyas ahve to brought back to that. Imran

[pj]

Well, I guess you are proven right then. Congratulations!

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

Of course! Good one! I mean, we we start to talk about history repeating itself, politics and totaltarinism...what other modern civilization could we choose as a comparison? Usually (but not all the time of course) discussions are easier understood by all when there is a common ground for comparison. Everyone seems to know about Us policy these days, i guess i'm just trying to get 'modern'

[Neruo]

With three teens in the house and one gone, I have come to view the following as unavoidable and part of the natural course of things: When kids become teens, they begin preparing their parents for their departure. They do this by being increasingly irritating and disrespectful. This is necessary, as if they were all cooperative and loving, they might not get out and start their own families. The way it works, most either end up leaving willingly with their parents' encouragement and blessing or being tossed out on their cans. It has, I believe, been this way since the dawn of man. Either way, nature has done her job. [/b] I always saw puberty as exactly that. Also, I think it might not Just be for the sake of parting, but also for the sake of actual change. Maybe it is good for a new generations Not to totally accept everything the previous generation did. Like some sort of cultural evolution perhaps. But evolutionary that might not be the reason teens very often rebel against their parents. I do see it as a side-product at the least however. The always present mind to rebel often results in some sort of change. "Actually the debate or history really is that important I find interesting. I don't disagree that if everyone would have a complete understanding of almost all the history the world would be better. But if no one does, does history hold any value? " re: Big Brother in '1984'...i'd say no value, history becomes subjective People do Seem To learn from history. It is unfortunate that it is always the same people in Power who learn from it and try to take it one step further by looking at such things as totaltarinism and saying "Well, THEY went wrong here, here, and there..so for US to gain the most power, all we have to do is change this here, deceive these here and kill more there." [/b] I actually just read 1984, that was kind of why I wrote that part 1984 is pretty darn interesting, it really made me think, about how people can think. Watch how much the US will sell their Freedom and Liberty while they change the Constitution to 'better' the value of life for its citizens. Eventualy, through seemingly legal and constitutional means, they will have ameneded it into something completely abstract from what it began as. For the People, not for the state. ... [/b] Yes. On some points, the US does sell their freedom in a way that if amplified by a hundred would lead to totalitarianism. Like the patriot act, giving up some freedom for 'safety'. Where do you draw the line giving up freedom, and what value does safety hold if nothing but a shell of what you used to want to protect, freedom, remains? "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a rant aimed at the United States of America approaches one." whatdya all think? Imran [/b] Haha. Hilariously true in a way. I kind of feel bad for ripping on America (-n politics) all the time, but if talking of (dangers of turning to) a totalitarian state, you always end up with the US, especially if you take it's power into account. Also, every debate is about something that in someway has to do with America. Even if you are talking about growing banzai tree's, those tiny little cute trees. It is just a short step from trees to nature, and then a short step from nature to the damage America inflicts on nature. Also, America is by far the country you end up discussing the fastest, since it is the most powerful nation, the nation that is almost always at war somewhere, the nation that has a lot of representation on almost all English sites, a nation that at the moment is the most economically in the world (and a nation with a sick national depth), ect. Just to much. Most of the movies in Europe come from America, most of the music, ect. Anyhow, like if you was a government, would you talk about the group of 10 people that did something wrong in you eyes, or would you talk about a group of 1000 people that did something wrong. We would talk about America, if a) it wasn't so influential b) there was less to talk about. Enough about America however. - History is interesting, that in a way certain periods often are unique. There was just one industrial revolution, just one iron age, just one time a huge land-mass was discovered and people massively went there (america), just once there was a certain war with a certain kind of weapons, for they later became old and got replaced. I think that too makes history to be always hard to 'predict', almost impossible. For instance, imagen religion would once be abolished, the world would never be the same, certain wars could never 'happen again'. Same with wars with swords, those will never happen again... everything is always completely new. But that pretty much is a good thing, as well as a bad thing. If history, if progress would freeze, if (technical) progress would reach it end, we might be able to learn from history, from what happened. We might be able to perfect one 'age'. On the other hand, like in the book 1984, if progress, and history, would be forced to a halt, the world Would get stuck in one position... And that might not be a good thing to happen, at least not in 1984.