Thread: The 4th Dimension

Very interesting hypothesis, but I stick to the belief that it is impossible to know what 4D is, unless you've seen it. Like trying to imagine a new colour, without having seen it. I'm impressed though. I know no one in my Physics class could think up something like this. And you're only 15 (you were born in January or February 1992 RIGHT?!?)

And yes your paint skillz rock. Although mine are rather good - you should see an elephant I painted a few months ago

Oh I didn't think it up I was taught it. And yeeeeah I'm born in January. Thanks for posting. I agree with you it's just an example of what 4d could be like to us. It's near impossible to imagine it. I've heard that the 4th dimension is time so I don't know really where that fits in. I'll ask my physics teacher coz he's awesome.

That's a lot of work but...what for? There can be no such thing as a physical 4th dimension. A 4th dimension might be a concept that doesn't relate to the physical realm though.
The physical world as we know it has 3 dimensions. There cannot be any more, the physical plain is three-dimensional and that is its ultimate form. It is what we call physical in general. So a fourth dimension wouldn't be physical in any way, at least following the most simple logic available.

Which is where the 4th dimension of time comes in possibly. Time is not a 'physical' object yet it exists much like many other things.

Time is a measure of action, it's not something active, just a concept used for description purposes. You can say "I ate lunch in 5 minutes" but there is no substance and no essence of time associated with that action, it's just a measure of how long it took relative to the physical realm; seeing how if we only existed in a mental plane without the physical then we would communicate instantly and there would be no boundaries for the exchange of information - thus no time.

Sure, there's some concept of "time" that comes from physics that I've heard relating to the speed of an object and such but obviously enough that shouldn't be called "time" seeing how time is...well, as mentioned above.

Interesting theory, I like the thinking. I'd be interested to see what else your physics teacher has to say on time in the dimensions and stuff like that.

I wouldn't entirely discount time as just being a measure, or there being just 3 dimensions. I mean, what dimension are our dreams then? 2D, 3D? Sure they have x y z axes, but they are in our heads how does that relate? I think even though we can't imagine it, doesn't mean it isn't there. If you'd never seen the colour blue, you couldn't imagine it, but it's still there.

That's exactly the point of my argument though. I didn't say there is no 4th dimension. I said it isn't physical and the 4th dimension as according to the original theory in this thread is that it's actually physical. Dreams are within our mind, not physical - part of our consciousness.

Originally Posted by Merlock

That's exactly the point of my argument though. I didn't say there is no 4th dimension. I said it isn't physical and the 4th dimension as according to the original theory in this thread is that it's actually physical. Dreams are within our mind, not physical - part of our consciousness.
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Ah yes, I see. Point taken. However, I think you could still argue a 4th physical dimension as being something we can't yet perceive as we are limited to 3D confines. Much like snails don't perceive very many things because their time perception is very slow, and in some way how certain creatures unable to look upwards wouldn't perceive a 3rd y axis dimension. Maybe the 4th dimension is micro-scopic, or works in negative light or something

Yes exactly. That's the one of the points I was getting at. We cannot imagine a 4th dimension as we live in a 3d world. Just like the people in the 2d world could not imagine a 3d world as their world is confined to just 2 dimensions and it would be extremely difficult to imagine a 3rd dimension. I'm sure there are scientists out there who know what the 4th dimension would look like.

Time is a measure of action, it's not something active, just a concept used for description purposes. [/b]

And the 3 spatial dimensions is a measurement of space.

Dimensions are not physical. They are only measurements of things. Last time I checked there aren't any dimensional particals flying around. Or maybe there is. YOu are the DImenSiOn! (action melody plays)

If a 4 spacial dimensional object passed though our 3 spacial dimensional plain. We wouldn't be able to tell. As something from a 2 spacial dimensional plain couldn't tell a 3 spacial dimensional object was passing through it's plain. Remeber in 2-D there is no up or down just around. On the drawing of the sphere passing through the 2-d realm. The thing inside would become steadily larger than become steadily smaller, until it completely passed through. So the thing couldn't tell if something was passing trough. Or just getting closer than going further away. But it wouldn't see the line since it's infinitly thin.

I don't know maybe a 4-dimensional object passing though our 3-dimensional plain would change its size and shape as it passes through, like fire, but only it doesn't actually change it's size or shape it just seems like it does. Like it looks like its moving without it actually moving. I think it would look chaotic not deciding on it's size or shape.

Originally Posted by goldney

Yes exactly. That's the one of the points I was getting at. We cannot imagine a 4th dimension as we live in a 3d world.[/b]

But, you see, we do live in 4D and are able to imagine it. We all live by the clock, therefor, we can necessarily perceive time. Time is merely a measure of duration. Or, if you will, of motion. Everything has motion on some scale. Without motion there is nothing by which to identify time. There may not even exist time without the propagation medium of motion.

Remember, time is not a physical dimension in the sense of spacial volume. Time is an infinite series of instantaneous "samples" of the three physical dimensions.

I think 4d is more of a meta-physical "knoweldge" rather than an actual existance.

But time dimension doesn't complete the dimensions in our universe. What what about solidness? Can objects not pass through each other in a third space dimensions, and still be a third space dimension?

Anyways, the topic poster wanted to know what the fourth space dimension looked like. Time isn't a reality; well, nor or any dimensions. Dimension are just the measurements and perimeters of things. It does get confusing with the mass dimensions. Everything has mass but things aren't made of mass. Things just effect the universe to influence mass. I geuss you could use mass as a dimension of the gravitional pull the objects influence. So, would the mass dimension be the measure of the pull through out the universe from objects by gravity? Or would it be the measure of how much the universe's shape is changed by the gravity of an object? Does mass actually change the shape of the universe? Is there a universe? Being that, empty space is filled with dark matter and expanding.

Time is the complex patterned motion of the universe created by reaction on different scales; from as small as the quantum scale to as large as the expanding of the universe. That's my thought on time. Are there different dimensions of time?

I honestly don't know why people have to keep brining up TIME.

This person is trying to conceptualize a 4th SPATIAL dimension - as in solid object right here, right now.

As someone mentioned earlier - would we ever see 4D objects come in and out of existence? Highly unlikely.

2D vs 3D

2D has no depth, therefor how can any slice of the 3D object ever appear in 2D land? The 3D object requires depth to even exist. Because 2D has no depth, it basically does not exist in our 3D universe.

3D vs 4D

3D has no extra dimension, therefor how can any slice of the 4D object ever appear in 3D land? The 4D object requires extra dimension to even exist. Because 3D has no extra dimension, it basically does not exist in the 4D universe.

Ok, ok, I'm done being a philosopher... for now

Originally Posted by blade5x

I honestly don't know why people have to keep brining up TIME.[/b]

Because time is the 4th dimension. Any other spacial dimensions beyond the 3 are purely speculative. But yes, I understand that that is what he's getting at.

Here's a little vid I thought was cool, found the link for it on a physics forum I read.
Flat Land video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hUu6zrdlUxI

if you interested in reading the thread it's
http://www.mkaku.org/forums/showthread.php?t=964

Originally Posted by Merlock

That's a lot of work but...what for? There can be no such thing as a physical 4th dimension. A 4th dimension might be a concept that doesn't relate to the physical realm though.
The physical world as we know it has 3 dimensions. There cannot be any more, the physical plain is three-dimensional and that is its ultimate form. It is what we call physical in general. So a fourth dimension wouldn't be physical in any way, at least following the most simple logic available.
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Although it seems kinda weird, I don't think we can just deny the existence of other physical dimensions. I don't know a lot about the subject, but I've heard talk about different theories which aren't completely out there that involve up to 10-11 dimensions. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your meaning of physical which wouldnt include those others dimensions except the 3 we know exist.

you guys might enjoy this:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php
It made me think about it for 2 days. Really.. mind-blowing.


Anyway, here's how i've imagined a 4th dimension.
This is not REAL.. but the idea of imagining how a 4th dimension would look like fascinated me for a long time. So i've tried to imagine a particular case, a scenario that would reflect the 4th dimension.
Here it is: imagine a sheet of paper. It is really thin, so we can consider it a 2 dimensions object. Now... imagine this really really thin sheet of paper is in a 3d world. a real-life sheet fo paper. Now.. Imagine this sheet of paper ahs AN ENTIRE WORLD in it. another 3d world ! Now.. you could do this easil;y by imagining a PHOTO of yourself. What would it be like if you could step INTO THAT PHOTO, and enter a 3 dimensions world? Basically, to the 2 dimensions of the photo, you add a depth that doesn't have a correspondent in the 3D world that the photo exists. So... we basically have a 3D world.. in that world we've imagined a really slim photo.. that has another 3D world in it. So besides the 2 dimensions of the photo, you have a depth that can't be seen in the 3D parent-world.
It's not the TRUE 4th dimensions, it's just a hypotethical scenario, an imaginable 4th dimension.

~Vox

Thanks for the video. It really summarizes the omniverse well.

As for the 4th dimention, I point to Back to the Future. Doc Brown has discovered that the 4th dimention is time, and is able to travel through it. 'nough said.

Depth is the fourth dimension. The 3rd dimension doesn't have depth. Objects in the 3rd dimension remains the same size no matter how far from the observer. Depth makes it so the further an object get the smaller it becomes. It also changes how quickly an object is passed. Close objects are passed more quickly than objects at a distance. Complexity is exchanged with distances. Distance close to the observer more detail is seen but less objects are seen. If too close detail lessens. Distance far from the observer more objects are seen, but less detail is seen. If too far less objects are seen. It's why we have microscopes and telescopes.

Your description of depth is accurate, but it is the 3rd dimention.

1st = width 2nd= height 3rd= depth.

If you believe otherwise, please list your unconventional dimentions.

Currently, I'm studying biology. I haven't had anything to do with dimensions and time for many years now, but I'll recall what I can and contribute my theories.

Somewhere along the line, I heard that there may be a 4th...matter? I forget its term. Anyways, it consisted of three at first, them being solids, liquids, and gases. I heard a theory of the fourth being time, which seems as though it couldn't be the next dimension if its also a component in the lines of solids, liquids and gases... (Someone let me know what those are called please, its driving me mad.)

Also, I have been thinking. Maybe we can set up a new relationship between the dimensions. I guess I'll start it off, but others correct me if I'm wrong.

Draw a line on a piece of paper. Notice two things. One, the line exists on the paper (2D). Two, the paper exists on a desk (3D). Notice how the line would *possibly?* not exist if it didn't have those other dimensions to rely on. (This is my theory, though it is possible it could work in reverse, by saying that 3D relies on 2D planes, and 2D planes rely on single dimensional lines.)

Going from my first case, ill sketch it.

--- needs [] to exist, [] needs [ ]=[] to exist, [ ]=[] needs x to exist

--- is a line, [] is a plane, [ ]=[] is a 3D figure. But what is x? Whatever it is, in my theory's case, it would involve something that all other dimensions would rely on. Once again, if this were in reverse, then x would be the one to rely on the line from the first dimension which makes up everything else.

Either way, someone with more experience in this field should be able to clear up which cycle works better. Then it would be like a Venn Diagram where each circle would fit perfectly into the one around it.

While this doesn't specify what the fourth dimension and beyond would be, it opens a path as to what it would have to contain to be possible.

spoiler: I didn't read any of this thread.

isn't the 4th dimension 'time?'

Recommended that you read through the discussion so you know what has been proved, disproved, and theorized.

I'm saying this because I feel that if time fell into the 4th category of solids, liquids, and gases, how could it also be the 4th dimension....thats like another dimension being composed solely of solids. However, I heard about this a few years back so I'm not sure what scientists have decided since then.

From my experimental theory in my past post, it may describe whether time can even fit into the category of being a dimension. If each dimension needed the one below or above (depending on which course you stick with), if the fourth dimension turned out to be time, all that above it would either rely on time or not involve it. Once again, my old example. Depending on your view, a plane either needs to exist in 3D or needs to be composed of lines. Whichever it is will most likely determine where (if at all) time falls into the vast category of dimensions.