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    1. #1
      Raz
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      I am a creator... a artist... as I write this I give you a combination of symbols. I did not give you the meaning. you did. You create words, visualization and fealing from this, not me. I am the creator of the sequnce but you are the creator of the meaning and you are alone in that meaning. The meaning can be simular to other beeings experiance but it´s never the same. How deep can we go in meaning?

      Embrace your freakiness and be free(k)

      one, slow, breath… one, steady, beat… heart… what dose that word stir in you? I will lett you tell you a story about the creation of the heart symbol. it is a tale never told and the writer is Raz and the director is Raz. the storyteller and actors is you. the inspiration for the story is you and best of all! it´s LIVE! You create the story now as you go with the flow.

      Once, a long time ago, in a reality far away, there was a world that lived in peace and harmony. there was one harmony walking hand in hand with it self and everybody else. at this “point” that is what our heart is: one point.
      after eons of peace and puppy love, parts of the self started to disagree on how reality should “be” and slowly but steady it came down to 2 realities. One side was what we would view as “pure light, feminine and masculine”. The “other side” as the “other side” refered to them, was what we would relate to as *pure darkness, masculine and feminine*

      There was a bloody war with two sides having “right” on their side and “wrong” on the other.

      One day the two sides came together under a flag of truce. The black side approached the white side with a white flag. The white side approached the black side with a black flag. This was the first sign of respect the sides had shown each other sins the start of the war. and their conversation sounded a little like this:

      -greetings oh puny fuzzy bunny! We come in peace! *whispers to friends* “Shoot to kill”.

      -Hello Impydimpy, how are things with the wife? I made you this black rose as a sign for better times *hands rose to imp*

      -Bah! I made you this pack of cigarettes as a get well soon token. and for da last time! do not call me Impydimpy!

      *sigh* is this not getting old mr Imp? We have after all been doing this sins the dawn of time.

      -finally something we agree on! What do we purpose oh so pink and fluffy?

      -Lets create a world with a fresh view so that we might come to understand our sides.

      *Imp and fuzzy bunny reluctantly merges and talk as one… for the last time in a very long time*

      -This is what we must do. We must create life so that there can be death. We must create a past so that we can have a future. we need two sides on the same coin. We need to walk 2 paths and meet up in the end.

      This is where our heart starts to take form. the point explodes out in two directions and they think they are separated. Our heart looks like a V now.

      eons come and go and what happened on the paths is a mystery that this story teller will not create.


      What happened at one point was that the two paths started to show each other respect and understanding.

      “we do not agree… But we understand your point of view and love you for who you are and would have you no other way”
      and the two separated points of the V starts to bow to each other in mutual respect and in the end we have our heart. Two sides turned in to one by mutual choice.




      I love symbols and how powerful they are. There are symbols in imaginative amount of forms. if I write “one letter” or “1-letter” or just ” i “. How do we work with these symbols that we call words? How do I know that you understand what is coming out of my 'mouth'?

      if you take this entire text and put a name on top of it, the symbols will have a symbol. how much meaning can words have? a imaginative combination of symbols. The word imagination for me has a deeper meaning while my father C:s no meaning for it other then children at play. What he dose not realize is that he uses his imagination all the “time” in daily life and in trying to plan ahead or remember the past, even the most simple problem in life needs the use of imagination. I think there really is no logic. Logic is something we as a collective decided, as a single mind, to imagine. Imagine a world of logic! is there really a history? or did we just imagine it? I don't know but I like to keep a open mind about reality and imagination is soooooo much faster then logic. That is why a imaginative/spiritual world has a easy *time* keeping up with a logical world. at least I like to think so =)

      *throws a smoke bomb and disappears ninja style*


    2. #2
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Sorry I don't believe in a creator.
      That is, unless you can turn water into Guinness beer!

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      Symbols do mean very nearly the same thing to different people. Otherwise, we wouldn't use them. You built your meaning from among the meanings that all English speakers understand, and you are responsible for it.

      I disagree with what you wrote, but it was a creative way to write it. Sorry, those stories built around a symbol generally go wrong. It's hard to make a good analogy.
      Ten years without a dream, now starting almost from scratch.

      We're messing with our bodies on a very low level here - can we break them? What will it take to hurt ourselves?

      A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
      -Roald Dahl

    4. #4
      Raz
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      Quote Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
      Sorry I don't believe in a creator.
      That is, unless you can turn water into Guinness beer!

      [/b]
      "I belive what I was programed to belive! Creation mumbo jumbo? Mumbo... perhaps... Jumbo Perhaps not!"

      Did you even read the post? or just reply to the topic?

      Imagination is creation and every "thing" From a house to a road to this computer... Everything man/woman made thing is originaly created with imagination and there is no limit in imagination. You create the limits. Expanding point of view with imagination takes practise but it´s oh so worth it. Imagine this life and imagine the rules in this reality and merge imagination with our shared reality and you come to a place that only you can experiance... And when you get there you will feel like you have waken from a bad dream and walked in to a wonderfull one...

      But thats ok as I am made of clay. And when you dare take a look in you and do not accept the voice in your head as truth without question you are on your way of geting to know all of you and you will understand me, I and self and realize the only reason you ever get angry or iritated with anyone is the cuse of you not understanding their point of view that started when they where born in to this moment...

      We walk near our death all the time as we may die at any moment. But we also walk near our birth as it´s all the same moment that we decide to devide and make in to a time line. But this is now and this is live. Betwen birth and death we live in limbo. Stuck in time...

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      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      I am the creator of the sequnce but you are the creator of the meaning and you are alone in that meaning. The meaning can be simular to other beeings experiance but it´s never the same. How deep can we go in meaning?

      I think there really is no logic. Logic is something we as a collective decided, as a single mind, to imagine. Imagine a world of logic! is there really a history? or did we just imagine it? I don't know but I like to keep a open mind about reality and imagination is soooooo much faster then logic. That is why a imaginative/spiritual world has a easy *time* keeping up with a logical world. at least I like to think so =)

      [/b]
      Here are a few things wrong with your argument:

      1. You state that everything is based on imagination, which creates a different interprentation of every sequence. This cannot be the case. If everyone had a different understanding of every sequence of occurences, people would not be able to coherently interact. Logic is the basis of a common system through which we can live in harmony.

      2. You state that 'logic' is something that was decided collectively. This goes against your previous statement that everyone interprets things differently.

      Imagination may be the root of the individual, but logic is the basis of society. The two are nearly inseperable.

    6. #6
      Raz
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
      Symbols do mean very nearly the same thing to different people. Otherwise, we wouldn't use them. You built your meaning from among the meanings that all English speakers understand, and you are responsible for it.

      I disagree with what you wrote, but it was a creative way to write it. Sorry, those stories built around a symbol generally go wrong. It's hard to make a good analogy.
      [/b]
      And on what ground do you say this? Have you ever been another person and experianced their reality? How do you know that you are not dead? How do you know that you exist? How do you know that the voice in your head that is telling *you* that you are alive or scared or hungry is you as in *insert your name*.

      Blind faith in your self will never get you anywhare else... Do not belive me for my words and dont forget to add a pinch of salt and pepper as you digest what you read. But question the voice in your head and you will find new levels of understanding of symbols and words.

      But this is not for all, as we would take a great fall, in to the abyss of our own shit and piss...

      Do what you want to do with your life... If that is a truck driver or letting enlighment find you that is a call that we decide this fall...

    7. #7
      Raz
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      Quote Originally Posted by Merlin38 View Post
      Here are a few things wrong with your argument:

      1. You state that everything is based on imagination, which creates a different interprentation of every sequence. This cannot be the case. If everyone had a different understanding of every sequence of occurences, people would not be able to coherently interact. Logic is the basis of a common system through which we can live in harmony.

      2. You state that 'logic' is something that was decided collectively. This goes against your previous statement that everyone interprets things differently.

      Imagination may be the root of the individual, but logic is the basis of society. The two are nearly inseperable.
      [/b]
      Now this is a reply I like

      1. What I´m trying to get at is that there are imagnitve levels of meaning. You do not think about the meaning of these words or where the meaning comes from. The voice in your head is reading this for you and you just think you understand. No questions asked? I´m not saying that you should not trust your self. Just that when you open a dialog with a teacher he has a easier time teaching. 2 way comunication instead of one way. Everybody has a inner voice... It is patient and will never do anything to make you feel controled and when the distortions around your life is low you can hear it clear as a summer day blue sky with a visable moon even tho the sun is up.

      *Body talking to mind*
      -You understand. and if you dont understand you will understand when I have learnt how to explane it.

      2.Ah... But I´m talking about the begining of this logical universe not just people

      Thank you for a very good reply...

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      So in summary, you are defining the entire mental process as the use of the imagination?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      And on what ground do you say this? Have you ever been another person and experianced their reality? How do you know that you are not dead? How do you know that you exist? How do you know that the voice in your head that is telling *you* that you are alive or scared or hungry is you as in *insert your name*.

      Blind faith in your self will never get you anywhare else... Do not belive me for my words and dont forget to add a pinch of salt and pepper as you digest what you read. But question the voice in your head and you will find new levels of understanding of symbols and words.

      But this is not for all, as we would take a great fall, in to the abyss of our own shit and piss...

      Do what you want to do with your life... If that is a truck driver or letting enlighment find you that is a call that we decide this fall...
      [/b]
      I don't think I need to answer most of this. You know that I exist and that I am alive.

      You're trying to sound cool, and I'll have to concede much of your point for the reason that you're making little sense to me. But I thought about that analogy in your first post, and what I specifically disagree with is the nature of good and evil. That came through to me pretty clearly, and I think I understand what you mean on that point.

      I know about the division of body and spirit (as I call it), and that my hunger is a message rather than an element of my very being. In your words, body talking to mind.

      Question the voice in my head? I'm not sure what you mean. My body tells me what it wants and I believe it as far as that goes, although I don't always meet its requests.
      Ten years without a dream, now starting almost from scratch.

      We're messing with our bodies on a very low level here - can we break them? What will it take to hurt ourselves?

      A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
      -Roald Dahl

    10. #10
      Raz
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
      I don't think I need to answer most of this. You know that I exist and that I am alive.

      You're trying to sound cool, and I'll have to concede much of your point for the reason that you're making little sense to me. But I thought about that analogy in your first post, and what I specifically disagree with is the nature of good and evil. That came through to me pretty clearly, and I think I understand what you mean on that point.

      I know about the division of body and spirit (as I call it), and that my hunger is a message rather than an element of my very being. In your words, body talking to mind.

      Question the voice in my head? I'm not sure what you mean. My body tells me what it wants and I believe it as far as that goes, although I don't always meet its requests.
      [/b]
      1. I know that you exist and that you are alive? When do you know anything? And when do you know anything about anyones perspective and point of view? When YOU decide that you know. And when you "know" you are not open minded. You may belive that I belive that you exist but you can never know...

      2. No you do not think you understand what "I" think... You think you understand what "you" think. As you read what I write you imagine the tone of my voice and you judge my intention. How do I sound in your head? I dont know but I can gues by judging my self. You precive others from your point of view. You telling me that I wrote that trying to sound cool is you telling me that "if I wrote that I would be trying to sound cool". Judging me, is judging you as you view the world trough a mirror of your self.

      3. How do you KNOW that every word popping in to your head is from you? in one point of view the body is you. In another the spirit is you. In my point of view everything is me... or you... or we... You can change your mind as much as you want. Beeing flexible in be(life) about reality and point of view can make you go boom (nova style)! Nothing is really right or wrong. If you twist your point of view with imagination, creation, religion or philosophy whatever you want to call it... It´s all the same with a diferent name...

      "I" do not want peace... The "I" has peace and YOU are the I... -=*You are the observer of you*=-... And you and me are all on the same side... All parts of me just have not realized this... Go team Earth! We will take this universe with a storm! (in a very playful way =) )

      Edit:
      "I don't think I need to answer most of this."
      Why would you need to do anything? I do what I want =)

    11. #11
      Raz
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      Quote Originally Posted by Merlin38 View Post
      So in summary, you are defining the entire mental process as the use of the imagination?
      [/b]
      Yes and no... I´m trying to define the source of the mental process as pure imagination. Try imagining your brain as a computer with layers of programs and a operating system. There is alot of spam. What if you dumped all the spam and created your own operating system inspierd from all life? What if you skiped using the logical part of your brain and just imagined a logical world? The logical part of the brain is slow. Imagination is fast. I dont know... I never know... But I belive and I play and my life is getting better every pasing day.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      1. I know that you exist and that you are alive? When do you know anything? And when do you know anything about anyones perspective and point of view? When YOU decide that you know. And when you "know" you are not open minded. You may belive that I belive that you exist but you can never know...

      3. How do you KNOW that every word popping in to your head is from you? in one point of view the body is you. In another the spirit is you. In my point of view everything is me... or you... or we... You can change your mind as much as you want. Beeing flexible in be(life) about reality and point of view can make you go boom (nova style)! Nothing is really right or wrong. If you twist your point of view with imagination, creation, religion or philosophy whatever you want to call it... It´s all the same with a diferent name...

      "I" do not want peace... The "I" has peace and YOU are the I... -=*You are the observer of you*=-... And you and me are all on the same side... All parts of me just have not realized this... Go team Earth! We will take this universe with a storm! (in a very playful way =) )
      [/b]
      1. Experiance has taught us that certian things are what they are. Brilliand and I know that the other individual exists. We know that you exist, and you know that we exist. How do we 'know' this? You are engaged in an interaction with us. If you did not exist, there would be no conversation on this thread. We do not just 'decide that we know'. That is belief. We 'know' based on observations and analysis of any given situation. Deciding the status of certian things doesn't create a closed mind. Your refusal to 'know' anything is more close minded. Individuals with a logical thought process are open to all ideas, provided they are presented in a logical fashion. On the other hand, you have rejected anything that has been based on logic.

      3. This may be a valid point. We don't know that aliens aren't controlling our minds and 'popping' words into our heads. That is probably a safe assumption, but there is that possibility. The ability to change your opinion does not mean that you are everything. Again, if you were the sum of every opposing viewpoint, you would basically have a net opinion of 0. This obviously isn't the case, as you propose that the imagination is everything. Going 'boom' may be a bit dramatic for explaining this, but it does summarize the impossibility of your viewpoint. In life, there are right and wrong answers. Not every argument is the same.
      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      Yes and no... I´m trying to define the source of the mental process as pure imagination. Try imagining your brain as a computer with layers of programs and a operating system. There is alot of spam. What if you dumped all the spam and created your own operating system inspierd from all life? What if you skiped using the logical part of your brain and just imagined a logical world? The logical part of the brain is slow. Imagination is fast. I dont know... I never know... But I belive and I play and my life is getting better every pasing day.
      [/b]
      If you used 'imagination' to visualize a logical world, you would still be using logic. Logic may be slower than the imagination, but it is also more dependable (slow and steady wins the race). In the real world, people do not create inventions by use of pure imagination. Logic is needed to make any workable object, even if the object was inspired by the imagination.

      An "operating system inspierd [sic] from all life" isn't a very specific analogy for your argument. Let's accept the analogy of the brain as a computer. Logic would not equate to spam. The actual nerve clusters would be the hardware, and logic would be the software. Spam infests the computer when virus protection programs (logic) are not functioning properly. Just because you may not be able to illustrate a logical argument for your ideas doesn't mean that you need to abandon it.


    13. #13
      Raz
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      Quote Originally Posted by Merlin38 View Post
      1. Experiance has taught us that certian things are what they are. Brilliand and I know that the other individual exists. We know that you exist, and you know that we exist. How do we 'know' this? You are engaged in an interaction with us. If you did not exist, there would be no conversation on this thread. We do not just 'decide that we know'. That is belief. We 'know' based on observations and analysis of any given situation. Deciding the status of certian things doesn't create a closed mind. Your refusal to 'know' anything is more close minded. Individuals with a logical thought process are open to all ideas, provided they are presented in a logical fashion. On the other hand, you have rejected anything that has been based on logic.

      3. This may be a valid point. We don't know that aliens aren't controlling our minds and 'popping' words into our heads. That is probably a safe assumption, but there is that possibility. The ability to change your opinion does not mean that you are everything. Again, if you were the sum of every opposing viewpoint, you would basically have a net opinion of 0. This obviously isn't the case, as you propose that the imagination is everything. Going 'boom' may be a bit dramatic for explaining this, but it does summarize the impossibility of your viewpoint. In life, there are right and wrong answers. Not every argument is the same.
      If you used 'imagination' to visualize a logical world, you would still be using logic. Logic may be slower than the imagination, but it is also more dependable (slow and steady wins the race). In the real world, people do not create inventions by use of pure imagination. Logic is needed to make any workable object, even if the object was inspired by the imagination.

      An "operating system inspierd [sic] from all life" isn't a very specific analogy for your argument. Let's accept the analogy of the brain as a computer. Logic would not equate to spam. The actual nerve clusters would be the hardware, and logic would be the software. Spam infests the computer when virus protection programs (logic) are not functioning properly. Just because you may not be able to illustrate a logical argument for your ideas doesn't mean that you need to abandon it.
      [/b]
      1. Ah... But what type of existenze? When you know this, get back to me... I would realy like to know as that is the nature of my mind. Just like wanting me to be right and you to be wrong is the nature of the "mind empire". You may be right in knowing that I exist. I could be wrong. And that is the point that makes me strong (in my view right -='*now*'=-). What works for me may not be for you. Do what you want with your point of view. I "think" I understand what you are saying as that used to be my reality as well. But things change and eventualy, so will your/my "heaven and hell".

      3. There is a alien in 'your' head. He/she/it can tell you that you are dead. Or asure you that you are alive. What ever makes you feel better and strive... *whispers* (and the alien is you, but dont tell you that I told you so... It´s a secret)... if you have your opinion in 0 right now. You can change it in the blink of a eye to 1... or *... or anything that you chose. Beeing in 0 when there is no point in having a opinion gives you space to take a rest in this race. Opinions are good when there is a point. When I´m sitting alone in my apartment with no one to argue with. Why have a opinion about anything then? But the 0 is not finite. It can change easy in t0 any direction of your choise... This is a open mind...

      4."An "operating system inspierd [sic] from all life" isn't a very specific analogy for your argument.".

      ok... So lett me be more specific =)

      How do we work? Where do your behaviour patterns come from? The outside world. And you chose what parts of the outside world you want to identify your self with. "Yes! this person thinks like me! We share a opinion. That feels good. I am not alone in this world!" You also identify your self with things that you "own". Like your body. That was your first gift when you came in to this world. And your family. You identify your self with hair, clothes, your car, your friends, whatever *thing* you view as yours or part of your "beeing". like types of music, "I like this music. It is the same that plays in my head!"

      There are parts of you that you like and there are parts of you that you do not like as much or not at all. You do not want to like all of you, just accept, understand and be aware. When you identify all of the outside world as your self (in one point of view) or decide to change your mind and identify nothing of the outside world (including "your" body)... Things get interesting to say the least and you realize that you truly are uniqe and alone just like every*body* else....

      So what do we do and why do we do it? Are you a humandooer or a humanbeeing? When you feel where you start and where you end that is when you "trancend".

      And remember that the past is just HIS(s)tory. And the future is a dream. We are now. We are alone. We are the ones that we have been waiting for. When you dare to have a look in your self in a honest way you will realize that you are made of clay and instead of unknowingly letting the outside world shape body and mind. You get your self together and work with what you have. Aware of the things that are pushing you down. Be it a "friend" or spouse leaching of you. I had a brother that was sucking me dry. I told him to have a good life and stay out of mine. This lifted me up and broke me free of the curse of a brother sucking the life out of me.

      Takeing and not giveing of self, drains you and pushes you down. When you take and give, give and take, it has a cumaltive efect lifting the 2 of you on to a highr ground of beeing. with laughter and happines instead of anger and iritation. When you hate anything you hate your self even if you may or may not realize this that is one of my few facts in life. If you need to use hate, do so when attacked with physical force. Even then realize that you are attacking your self and nobody else. I´m not telling you what to do. I´m just giveing you a view of me and if you like what you see it is ok if you want to play by simular rules. Life is a game and the universe is going insane, realizing and experiancing that it is all, one at the time we rise this fall. Some times I wish I did not know this and one day I will make my self forget this again. But right now I´m in betwne birth and death, stuck in time, limbo or earth. What ever the name. Cause and efect is the game and I think it helps to be unsane. You dont have to BE... But it helps... I´m a tool of me and strive to *BE* WEEEeeee!

      Now I do what I want and I like you for who you are, as I can se alot of how I used to *be* in you. Thank you for the gift of your last post. I hope you like my gift for you just as much I like the gift you gave me. This is a mesage from your future self and one day you will send a simular message to your past to help your self on your way, to stop beeing shaped by others and be your own clay. Now dont get me wrong. I´m not realy you and you are not realy me. Just like the voice in your head. But we WILL BE. Or not... Depending on what side you choose (there is only one side in the end)... And dont worry... Just like everything else in this forever changing reality "this too will pass"...

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      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      1. Ah... But what type of existenze? When you know this, get back to me... I would realy like to know as that is the nature of my mind. Just like wanting me to be right and you to be wrong is the nature of the "mind empire". You may be right in knowing that I exist. I could be wrong. And that is the point that makes me strong (in my view right -='*now*'=-). What works for me may not be for you. Do what you want with your point of view. I "think" I understand what you are saying as that used to be my reality as well. But things change and eventualy, so will your/my "heaven and hell".[/b]
      I can't prove exactly what is controlling you. But whatever it is, that is what I consider you and I interact with. Whatever you may be, you exist as something capable of interaction. Let's keep that clear.

      More specifically, you are a spirit controlling some part of a brain that acts as an amplification device to impose your will on a small 3D portion of our 11D universe. Every level of your being has knowledge and abilities of its own, and I cannot be sure how much you understand each level. But I do not understand them fully either. The body seems to be more free with information about itself than the other levels, so we have quite a good idea about how our muscles work and such. But studying a body requires a mind, studying a mind requires a spirit and studying a spirit requires something above that. The Bible provides that for me. Sorry to bring my religion into this.

      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      3. There is a alien in 'your' head. He/she/it can tell you that you are dead. Or asure you that you are alive. What ever makes you feel better and strive... *whispers* (and the alien is you, but dont tell you that I told you so... It´s a secret)... if you have your opinion in 0 right now. You can change it in the blink of a eye to 1... or *... or anything that you chose. Beeing in 0 when there is no point in having a opinion gives you space to take a rest in this race. Opinions are good when there is a point. When I´m sitting alone in my apartment with no one to argue with. Why have a opinion about anything then? But the 0 is not finite. It can change easy in t0 any direction of your choise... This is a open mind...[/b]
      That's no alien. It's me.

      Zero is nothing. It can become something if there is something to provide that something to believe. Because of that, zero is the best place to start out. But it's not a good place to stay because zero is worthless in itself. You're not at zero, though. You're a romanticist.
      Ten years without a dream, now starting almost from scratch.

      We're messing with our bodies on a very low level here - can we break them? What will it take to hurt ourselves?

      A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
      -Roald Dahl

    15. #15
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      "I can't prove exactly what is controlling you. But whatever it is, that is what I consider you and I interact with. Whatever you may be, you exist as something capable of interaction. Let's keep that clear."

      I cant prove what is controling me ether... But from what I have experianced I belive that the source of this voice in our heads is the same for us all. So basicly it is interacting with it self. From my experiances I also belive that free will is a illusion. At least at this level that we are at right now.


      "More specifically, you are a spirit controlling some part of a brain that acts as an amplification device to impose your will on a small 3D portion of our 11D universe. Every level of your being has knowledge and abilities of its own, and I cannot be sure how much you understand each level. But I do not understand them fully either. The body seems to be more free with information about itself than the other levels, so we have quite a good idea about how our muscles work and such. But studying a body requires a mind, studying a mind requires a spirit and studying a spirit requires something above that. The Bible provides that for me. Sorry to bring my religion into this.
      That's no alien. It's me."

      I like your point of view on this and can relate to what you are talking about. What is a alien for you? The word alien obviously means something else for me then for you. In my point of view we are all aliens as we know others trough our self and can never truly know what is going on inside someones head. Some people can be easy to read and put a lable on but others seem to be on a deeper level of beeing and you cant realy put a lable on them.

      "Zero is nothing. It can become something if there is something to provide that something to believe. Because of that, zero is the best place to start out. But it's not a good place to stay because zero is worthless in itself. You're not at zero, though. You're a romanticist."

      You are talking about the past as it still is. You can put a lable on me in a situation if you want. Right now I view my self as a writer. When I´m done with this I will be a eater as I feel hunger coming on. After this I will be a martial arts guy and do some exercises and maby lift some waights. After this I will put on some music and I will be the music. Then I will turn of all sound, go to bed and be a dreamer. I am what I am when I decide to be whatever I want to be. This is just for the life I have this day. To morrow I will be what ever I want to be or not be at all... I am a observer of this body and it is trying to make me understand it´s limits so that I do not hurt it. I like the lable "romanticist" and You can call me that if you want and I can even identify this body with that at times. But things change and this to will pass. Right now I´m me and I adjust me to comunicate with you. Just Like you adjust you to comunicate with me and diferent people around you. You behave in diferent ways with diferent people...

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      Why do you believe free will is an illusion, and on what do you base this statement?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      I cant prove what is controling me ether... But from what I have experianced I belive that the source of this voice in our heads is the same for us all. So basicly it is interacting with it self. From my experiances I also belive that free will is a illusion. At least at this level that we are at right now.[/b]
      I disagree with you, but I can't prove my view, so I'll have to agree to disagree. What's this about levels, though? How could you possibly progress through levels without free will? Would whatever is controlling you allow it? Also, I'd like to know just what you mean by levels, since the levels I mentioned aren't something you progress through.

      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      I like your point of view on this and can relate to what you are talking about. What is a alien for you? The word alien obviously means something else for me then for you. In my point of view we are all aliens as we know others trough our self and can never truly know what is going on inside someones head. Some people can be easy to read and put a lable on but others seem to be on a deeper level of beeing and you cant realy put a lable on them.[/b]
      Strictly speaking, an alien is an outsider. Anything that has been with me since birth is not an alien. However, unless the context tells me otherwise, I understand the word to mean space aliens - generally, little green men.
      You seem to be using alien as I use spirit - as a definite part of all of us, that isn't part of our physical world.

      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      You are talking about the past as it still is. You can put a lable on me in a situation if you want. Right now I view my self as a writer. When I´m done with this I will be a eater as I feel hunger coming on. After this I will be a martial arts guy and do some exercises and maby lift some waights. After this I will put on some music and I will be the music. Then I will turn of all sound, go to bed and be a dreamer. I am what I am when I decide to be whatever I want to be. This is just for the life I have this day. To morrow I will be what ever I want to be or not be at all... I am a observer of this body and it is trying to make me understand it´s limits so that I do not hurt it. I like the lable "romanticist" and You can call me that if you want and I can even identify this body with that at times. But things change and this to will pass. Right now I´m me and I adjust me to comunicate with you. Just Like you adjust you to comunicate with me and diferent people around you. You behave in diferent ways with diferent people...
      [/b]
      Your body eats and works out. Your mind listens to music and dreams. But your spirit, I think, is the romanticist. That's you, and it doesn't change like the body does. The higher you look, the greater the stability you will find.

      Perhaps you are not a romanticist first and foremost, but in this brief encounter that is what I have seen of you. And you will be a romanticist for a long time to come.

      I believe in free will. I think that if you don't, you should stop talking about your choices. Are you an agile puppet of the great master or a searching child?

      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      Why do you believe free will is an illusion, and on what do you base this statement?
      [/b]
      He believes that we are all controlled by a single being. As such, none of us have wills of our own. I don't think you will get him to try to prove it.
      Ten years without a dream, now starting almost from scratch.

      We're messing with our bodies on a very low level here - can we break them? What will it take to hurt ourselves?

      A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
      -Roald Dahl

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      I got that as a general gist from his previous messages, but I was hoping Raz would clarify his belief.

    19. #19
      Raz
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      Quote Originally Posted by Merlin38 View Post
      Why do you believe free will is an illusion, and on what do you base this statement?
      [/b]
      I will awnser with a poem/song:

      Right now we live in cause and effect time. You where born in to a situation that and a starting point that was not your bodys choice. What you decide to do from that point is up to you but you walk your path of life and plant seeds that will grow. This again is point of view. In the big picture in the physical there is no free will. Just cause and efect. What we have is the power to decide how much cause and how much reaction we give to a cause.

      You wrote that to me and that made me write this to you. Now it is done. But wait! it´s not! Like a domino we fall trough life. Did you know this? Scientists call walking a series of controled falls (and I like that so now I call it that to). So we do not walk trough life. We fall trough life. Again the point of view. You can twist and turn it like nothing else. A realy cool way to learn and observe the self.

      *body talking to mind*
      You understand, and if you dont understand you will understand when I have learnt how to explane it.

      *mind talking to body*
      NO LIMIT! NO PAIN! NO FEAR! yes? YOU ARE RIGHT! HE IS WRONG! I AM YOU! LISTEN TO ME! I try to help you but for this to work you have to be AWARE of you, me and I and know that it´s all the same. Logic is a low level, the slow level, in the brain.

      Chaos rulez here and for a logical you that can be a scare. But NO fear! There is outside help! They are just like us! (just much older then this moment)

      *walks in to the rainforest and takes of in a UFO with the sound track “I´m in love with an alien” playing in the background*

      Wiiiiieeee! Imagine meeee! and imagine 'you' just like you are doing right now =)

      Weeeee, areeee, going to se the wizard the wonderful wizard of OZ!

      -Do not pay any atention to the voice in your head! No It did not read you this! you did! No other levels of you here! look away! Danger! Reading that will make you fatt! Stop looking at me! I´m not here! How dare you! Now I´m getting mad! And you will be sad! Listen to me and be free! No questions asked! You crazy in da coconutt!

      Music is the key. When I sing to you, listen to me. When your life is a song, all is conected and good or bad is just a note or a tone… Now ad a picture and make your life music video. In the end we will know… For now just go with the flow… Trust in the experiance and accept all of you. What you sing from Raz words ring true.

      Razmataz has seen the light. He was on the edge of us. He could have joined us in the light, but he wanted to stay and fight… For you and for me… Raz dont be sad. You know what is to come. Have patiance and be glad, your experiance is true and the doubt is a lie. Now come with me and fly. A little longer with your feet on the ground. I know it´s hard but I promice that you will not regret staying in this reality. You have alot of friends to give you suport. This dream tree is just one of your gifts to you and you are reading this. The people here, are coming aware. Do not fear to ask for their help. They will realize that *you* are but a dragon whelp. Spread your fire and swing your stick. You wonder why you never get sick? You have been down, you have been as low as you can go. Take it easy and take your time to grow. This ends our writing here, but know that we are always with you in your head. In your point of view we are the dead. In our point of view you are the dead. Now go and have some bread…

      "I has a master plan! a plan so cuning that my head would exlode if I even began to comprehend what "I" was talking about"

    20. #20
      Raz
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      "Also, I'd like to know just what you mean by levels, since the levels I mentioned aren't something you progress through."

      I´m talking about levels of awarness... Just how aware you are of you can shift and change. Why do we do what we do? Observe contrasts in life and understand how you work. You know how good feels as you have fealt bad. You know happy as you have been sad. These words would have no power over you if you had no experiance to compare. Even seeing someone sad can tell you that you do not want to be that. The sound, picture, smell, touch that you see someone experiance and you want that to be you or not be you. But you can only truly know after experiancing it your self...

      Thank you for what I did not need to experiance.

      Thank you for experiancing what you have and what you will experiance so that I do not have to.

      The conection is there... Just waiting for you to be aware. Listen to your self. And that is me. As I listen to you. To love is to listen.


      Thank you "2" for singing to me. I hope you aprisiate my song for you...

      The Buddha's Last Instruction:

      "“Make of yourself a light ”
      said the Buddha,
      before he died.
      I think of this every morning
      as the east begins
      to tear off its many clouds
      of darkness, to send up the first
      signal - a white fan
      streaked with pink and violet,
      even green.
      An old man, he lay down
      between two sala trees,
      and he might have said anything,
      knowing it was his final hour.
      The light burns upward,
      it thickens and settles over the fields.
      Around him, the villagers gathered
      and stretched forward to listen.
      Even before the sun itself
      hangs, disattached, in the blue air,
      I am touched everywhere
      by its ocean of yellow waves.
      No doubt he thought of everything
      that had happened in his difficult life.
      And then I feel the sun itself
      as it blazes over the hills,
      like a million flowers on fire-
      clearly I’m not needed
      yet I feel myself turning
      into something of inexplicable value.
      Slowly, beneath the branches,
      he raised his head.
      He looked into the faces of that frightened crowd."

      -Mary Oliver

      He looked into the faces of that frightened crowd.
      He found his self looking right back at him.
      “Make of yourself a light” Will be my final word
      Self pitty mealts away and the lost wings are finding their bird
      Under the hood of your car he still lurks
      When you remember and experiance that you where me and that I am you
      I´m not there anymore, I folow you
      Teach me how to teach you
      Jumping from student to master and back again
      We who where, still walks the earth
      Waiting for our birth
      Wait no more and waight no more
      intention that is clear we hold dear
      Give me your finger and I will take your hand
      That is why there can be no more me
      there must be only 'you' experianced from a 'me' perspective

      -Razola

      Edit:

      "Strictly speaking, an alien is an outsider. Anything that has been with me since birth is not an alien."

      A alien for me as a beeing that I do not know the true nature of. Do you know the true nature of the spirit? There has been a alien with your body from your birth. You do not remember your spirits past. But You will... No hurry getting there. Step by step we become aware. Spontanius is in it´s nature and that is how I speak. This brings me closer to what I seek. Seek no more and lett your self be found. You are now and have always been on holy ground. Be a ninja and a mage with the knowlage of a sage.

    21. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by Raz View Post
      I will awnser with a poem/song:

      Right now we live in cause and effect time. You where born in to a situation that and a starting point that was not your bodys choice. What you decide to do from that point is up to you but you walk your path of life and plant seeds that will grow. This again is point of view. In the big picture in the physical there is no free will. Just cause and efect. What we have is the power to decide how much cause and how much reaction we give to a cause.

      [/b]
      Even in your own statement, you stated that individuals have the power to choose what effect they have on a cause. This is equivalent to free will.

    22. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Merlin38 View Post
      Even in your own statement, you stated that individuals have the power to choose what effect they have on a cause. This is equivalent to free will.
      [/b]

      Try zooming out and have a look at the machine. Earth is like a clock-work ticking away. Robots with fealings, breath engine and a indestructable heart. Zoom in and have a look at you. In slow-motion bullit-time we live. To my ears you limit your way of thinking and I´m not saying that is wrong. But I feel there is more in you. Stuborn and strong. I can be stuborn to. But then I remember who I am and realize that if I where you I would be doing the EXACT same thing. I would write just what you are writing and read what you are reading. Just like you would write this if you had started where I started. This makes me feel more ok with the world. at peace with everything and everyONE as they are dooing just what I would have done in their "shoes/chose". When my mind is at peace it is not in the way of my life musical play.

      Look out for the deamons that you create. They make you think that you hate or get anoyed. If I put you on your guard then one of your deamons is me. Understanding and compation and making sure that you only have people in your life where you can be you and not someone they want you to be. Are you honest with your self? if so I take a bow. Respect to you my brother and friend letts change the world by living the way we think it should be lived from our point of view.

      The only thing I´m telling you to do is: be you. And I´m not even saying that. To this you do not agree? do you want to be me? Come my little deamon and grow in your darkness so that you may one day find your light. You will realize that there is no fight. The coin only has one side. I like creating deamons too. They have a much livlier humor as "heaven is a place where nothing ever hapens".

      Ask your self this when you are dead: Lived I on this earth? or Liveddevil on this earth? Lived is Devil or the other way around. Read it left to right and then right to left.

      You can make the deamon a angel or saint to. All a matter of point of view.

      Sleepy time...

    23. #23
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      Of course, we have the perception of thinking that we have free will or a choice on a path that we all collectively pigeonholed ourselves into but we quickly try and forget that nothing in the course of history could've happened any other way than it has and ultimately we are simply the powerless victims of circumstance...

      (I used the example of breaking down and stripping away the idea of free will in another thread on, The Eternal 'Now', I don't feel like typing that again so please allow me paste that part now)
      Quote Originally Posted by SolSkye View Post
      Well, as I stated before, everything, at it's most basic level is just a variable being run through the Time formula. be it on a micro, or macroscopic level. We are simply chemically explainable variables. At this very moment everything is just---> A+B+C+D+...(All things in existence)=Time.(Aka. "Now")

      (Remember from my first post that this funny thing called existence is repeating it's expansion/contraction thing that we call 'Time', ad infinitum)

      This particular time through the 'time' formula it was decided for you to be... a letter 'A'
      the next time through the formula at the same point in the formula you are... a letter 'B'
      and the next time through at the same point in the formula you are... a letter 'C'
      and the next time through at the same point in the formula you are ... a roman numeral 'IX'
      and the next time through at the same point in the formula you are ... a digit '9'
      so on, and so forth... randomly...forever and ever...making all choices not only possible but a reality
      .
      .
      .
      Of course, that would have you with no other choice then the thing that you are right 'NOW'. That is, other than a physical culmination of chemicals interacting with other chemicals; some living, others not. Now, It would be nice to think we'd have a choice to flip or not flip that coin. However, all the events leading up to that choice to flip, or even thinking about the idea to test that choice of free will, are all occurring inevitably and randomly. That is because in actuality, we have NO real control over anything we think or do; your interactions with people, the seating available at a movie, the way in which our burgers at a fast food place are flipped. NOTHING. We may think in those small lucid moments of the 'to flip, or not to flip' scenario we really have control but its merely the synapses in your brain firing randomly as a result of all the life experiences that make you, YOU.
      Example: You have a long day and nothing seems to be going your way, you had a freak accident with your car on the way to work requiring you to walk instead of drive your car, you feel the inability to take control of your life which causes you to bring up the question..."To flip, or not to flip...AHHH, at least I have free will...". However, all the previous experiences throughout your day have you too tired to exert the force of energy required to dig into your pocket, take out the coin, and flip, so you choose NOT to but instead, revel in the sweet blissful feeling that you still have free will.

      OR the converse,

      Example: You lucked out today investing wisely, and winning another $5,000 in the stock market. Amidst this energizing feeling of victory, you feel in control of your life and destiny and how it was a such a good idea to listen to your buddy about that stock tip. You have second thoughts, and think perhaps it was just dumb luck, although in the end at least it was still your decision. You then, smile and bask in the sweet blissful feeling that you still have free will, and gleefully flip the coin.
      Both situations have you seemingly deciding on something, but at its most basic level you are just a product of your environment. Its all just the way in which we view that given moment in the "Now". Our consciousness is just a chemical asteroid being bombarded by other asteroids and redirecting trajectory accordingly.
      That pretty much strips any idea of true individuality away...
      [/b]


      The Art of War
      <---> Videos
      Remember: be open to anything, but question everything
      "These paradoxical perceptions of our holonic higher mind are but finite fleeting constructs of the infinite ties that bind." -ME

    24. #24
      Raz
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      And that is what I have been trying to say: That we are all made of clay. Beeing shaped from what is hapening around us and within us. Remember that this is good and not bad. Surender to your self and realize that you are all, or take a great fall, again and again you will fall, no true peace of mind. Untill we finaly get it, think as one, and move on, united and strong. Phat bass pounding on your door. It´s time to wake up and that we will doo. One by one we rise this fall. When you do wake up you can help others to do so to. But your main goal is just to be you. All the rest is just for fun. There is no test or judge, just you holding a grudge with parts of you.

      You experiance what you need to experiance. Just like me. In the end of the begining we will be free.

      Soon to come but there is much we must do. or is there? not from *my* point of view... Trust in your self and know how big *you* are. Earth is just one big star.

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      I think you need to be careful with throwing away the word every time you change your mind about what it refers to. You say there is no free will, yet you refer to something that could be called free will... you say that hatred is not your own decision but a demon you create, yet in that case the existence of the demon would be what we call hatred.

      Certainly, there&#39;s an opposite problem of using the word for something besides what everyone else means, but I find it less frustrating to talk to someone who doesn&#39;t mean what I mean (but says what I say) than to someone who doesn&#39;t say what I say (but means what I mean).

      "Your main goal is just to be you": I&#39;d say that&#39;s circular, and my point is that there must be some other goal - at least in the sense that what "you" are tends to do a certain thing.

      Also, what do you mean by "Rise this fall"? You seem to like using oxymorons...
      Ten years without a dream, now starting almost from scratch.

      We&#39;re messing with our bodies on a very low level here - can we break them? What will it take to hurt ourselves?

      A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
      -Roald Dahl

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