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    1. #1
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      Suppose for a second that humans have finally discovered the key to creating the all powerful quantum computer. Suppose that we have almost infinite computational resources at our disposal. And now, suppose that someone decides that this is the perfect chance to play god.

      With these infinite resources (and assuming we have a fair knowledge of the universe behind us), it would be possible to create a program that is able to simulate all of physics. Every single rule of the universe would be programmed into a computer, into a single program. A new universe can therefore be created; a digital universe. Since it's still within the realm of our computer, it would be possible to create and destroy matter (since the matter is really technically energy. If you want to really play fair, just start out with a lot of matter and do with it what you will). The programmer would designate a large empty space as an area protected from interference, and would throw enough of the right proportions of matter to form, as we understand, a solar system. Each and every atom would be kept track of, to make sure that each atom follows the rules of the universe. Any cosmic rays can simply be simulated from the outside (without having to waste computational power by actually creating their source).

      Since we're doing this on an all powerful computer, we can speed up time inside the virtual universe. So we do, and time goes on, and, if we've planned the formation correctly, a habitable world would form in our solar system. Letting time speed by (really, we're violating several laws of physics here since we're sort of predicting the future using information about atoms that we can track. But in the computer, it isn't real physics, just the physics you designate, which happen to be the same as real physics. The fact that we CAN track all of these atoms denotes that we can predict the future and simply jump to any point in the virtual future we wish), we watch as life is formed on a planet in the solar system. This helps to solve if evolution is real or not once and for all (which is ironic, since this universe was actually created). We watch as our life forms grow, speeding up time as we see fit, until at last, we reach the point where we are observing intelligent life. We slow time to our normal speed to watch the sentient beings.

      Of course, we will have the ability to enter this virtual world. It's not difficult; simple hook our senses up to a machine that places a virtual body in the world. We can interact if we so wish, learn their language, even tell them the nature of their existence. If technology allows (bioprinters), we can even bring them into our world.

      Here we find ethical issue, however. Do these creatures have souls (if such things exist)? If we bring them into the physical world, wouldn't we just be making a copy?
      Assuming they do have souls, simply copying the mind of the creature would prove difficult. It would have only one soul for two minds, and perhaps said soul could not travel to the real world body. Making a perfect copy within the virtual world, however, should create a being exactly like the original. How would the soul accomplish such a feat as using two bodies?

      I think that this hypothetical experiment shows that it impossible for a soul to exist, unless it is an unquantifiable object that has no mass. Even then, how can a soul be in two places at once without being two souls? Even if it could, would such a creature (two bodies, one soul) have conscious control over two bodies?

      Someone else give me their thoughts! Thank for you for letting me ramble.

    2. #2
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
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      I thought of this before...

      Well I don't think we'd ever be able to create a world even close to how complicated our world is. And I especially don't think we'd be able to create life either. Very complicated.

      But if we could-

      We'd have to make the souls for our creatures to have souls. And I doubt that we'll ever make a concious sentient computer program with free will. We'd have to know what a soul is. (By the way, souls are the same as spirits right?) So I've heard that the Bible seems to say that a spirit is an electromagnetic force. (I'm using the Bible because, if spirits do exist, I think the Bible would be likely to be right about this.)

      This'd be a perfect experiment to see if we are just brains and nothing more. Just copy a human and maybe some animals into the program and see if they live! A normal spirit in the real world wouldn't be able to control the virtual human because it would have to get into the computer's memory and switch billions of bits to operate the brain. And... that's not something a spirit would be trained to do, or even be able to do quickly enough if they knew how.

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      No no, we only create the initial beginning. Life sort or creates itself, primordial soup style.

    4. #4
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
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      What's the beginning? ("Before" time)

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      However the solar system was initially forged (I'm assuming lots to do with gravity and explosions).

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      stop with all the anime metcalfracing's Avatar
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      ok...

      so what you have here is a program full of "matter" and physical laws.... got it...
      but, unlike a real world, if there are organisms... they won't do anything unless programmed to, thus, its impossible to create "life". I mean, a computer doesn't read blank script as "go ahead, do whatever you want", it reads it as "do nothing". So, if you want to give them free will, you'll end up with alot of nothing. You could definitely simulate "free will", but at the end of the day, its all just parlor tricks, they are no more free than they are conscious of their very existence.

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      I'm implying that nature and the universe created it's own life. If atoms act as though they were real, they will eventually begin the process of evolution and create life.

    8. #8
      stop with all the anime metcalfracing's Avatar
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      I'm not even going to say what I'm thinking right now... It'll get the atheists screaming again....

      anyways, your missing my point. You can't program a computer to think on its own. That is a contradictory statement. Programmed free will isn't free will. You can't make digital atoms act real, because they'll just act as programmed, end of story. You'd have to program them with the need to do what is "real". You'd have to program the entire evolutionary timeline, including the first organism. Then, you'd have to program it to "mate". After that, you'd have to program your "baby's" script in order for it to exist... At this point, I'd say its absurd to claim that this is anything like life, and we haven't even gotten to self consciousness.

    9. #9
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
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      You wouldn't have to program all that stuff. You'd just have to create the beginning of the universe, all the physics rules and everything, and then eventually life would evolve on its own without you making it. But you're right about a program not being concious.

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      Look away wendylove's Avatar
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      Suppose that we have almost infinite computational resources at our disposal. And now, suppose that someone decides that this is the perfect chance to play god.[/b]
      A quantum computer is not infintely powerful so we won't be able to play god. Ironically speaking what if we simulated this universe would we be a computer program, as what would be the real thing. What if we are just a computer simulation.
      Xaqaria
      The planet Earth exhibits all of these properties and therefore can be considered alive and its own single organism by the scientific definition.
      7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms.
      does the planet Earth reproduce, well no unless you count the moon.

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      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jeremysr View Post
      But you're right about a program not being concious.[/b]
      Why is he right about the computer not being concious. All you need is tons of connections, I don't care if they are organic or from something else. It's what makes us concious, that's the important thing. Aren't we programmed to have sex, sleep, eat...? Or did we just choose to eat because we "have" free will. If I throw a ball, it will fly and then fall, just like it was programmed. True that it's not so on a quantum level, but for now it's not so quantum on the macro level. So tell me, why can't we be a program on a computer right now? Tell me why it's not possible that my arm moves just because it's its "destiny" and that I just think it's because I want it so. The same way the stone falls down, not left or right when you let go of it.
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    12. #12
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
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      All a computer does is follow instructions. It will not have conciousness or self-awareness or especially free will by just doing whatever you tell it to do. It doesn't matter how many "connections" you have. It's IMPOSSIBLE. I've thought about it a lot and read books about it and also, I'm a programmer and know how computers work.

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      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      What if you instruct a computer to learn. And then it learns everything humans know and becomes aware of itself. Is that not what self-awareness is? Is that not what humans did, without our knowledge we are just stupid beings. Also please don't talk about impossibilities, I know of things that are more impossible than a computer that happens to be aware.
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    14. #14
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
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      The only thing it could do then, is make it look exactly like it's self-aware and make decisions that would make it look like it's self-aware. It will never be possible for a computer program to be self-aware in the way we are though.

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      Member Indecent Exposure's Avatar
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      This topic is basically, awful
      and Metcalfracing, you ahd me screaming simply because of implying that ridiculous thought.

      "...You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world..." - Terence McKenna

      Previously known as imran_p

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      Quote Originally Posted by wendylove View Post
      A quantum computer is not infintely powerful so we won't be able to play god. Ironically speaking what if we simulated this universe would we be a computer program, as what would be the real thing. What if we are just a computer simulation.[/b]
      Er, I said that in my post. About both the irony and the hypotheticality of such a powerful computer.


      Quote Originally Posted by wendylove View Post
      This topic is basically, awful
      and Metcalfracing, you ahd me screaming simply because of implying that ridiculous thought.[/b]
      Thanks for your input! It's so very helpful and kind! And so much deep meaning! Really a terrific response.


      Quote Originally Posted by wendylove View Post
      The only thing it could do then, is make it look exactly like it's self-aware and make decisions that would make it look like it's self-aware. It will never be possible for a computer program to be self-aware in the way we are though.[/b]
      If something is made to look and act exactly like it's self aware for the entirety of its life, and nobody can even tell the difference, what's the difference.

      I think y'all missed the point of my argument. If we could recreate the universe exactly as it was created in real life on a computer, would digital life not form on a digital earth?

    17. #17
      DreamSlinger The Cusp's Avatar
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      I reget to inform you all that you have actually been living in such virtual universe, and that this project has almost reached it's conclusion and will be terminated shortly. Sorry for any inconvinience this may cause.

    18. #18
      Member Jeremysr's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mindule View Post
      I think y'all missed the point of my argument. If we could recreate the universe exactly as it was created in real life on a computer, would digital life not form on a digital earth?[/b]
      If there is no God and no spirits: It would turn out EXACTLY like it did in real life. And it would be a paradox. Because this computer's memory would have to be larger than the whole universe to contain the virtual universe (with the size of our current computer memory, it'd probably be milllions or billions or trillions of times bigger than the universe.) We'd be able to speed up virtual time and see ourselves in the future. That's where the paradox is... us in the virtual universe would eventually get to the point where they'd invent this computer too, that's larger than the universe, and then there would be an infinite of these virtual computers all inside each other.

      But if there is something outside our universe that is controlling any part of it, our virtual world would be much different. It would prove that God exists, but since we'd have to know how the universe began to do this simulation, we'd already have proved He exists.

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by mindule View Post
      Suppose for a second that humans have finally discovered the key to creating the all powerful quantum computer.[/b]
      *cough*
      LD Count: 7
      Longest time in a lucid dreamstate: ~6 seconds

      Still, the most epic six seconds I have ever experienced...

    20. #20
      Member Indecent Exposure's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mindule View Post
      Thanks for your input! It's so very helpful and kind! And so much deep meaning! Really a terrific response.[/b]
      Pleasure
      "...You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world..." - Terence McKenna

      Previously known as imran_p

    21. #21
      Paranoid Chaos's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mindule View Post
      Suppose for a second that humans have finally discovered the key to creating the all powerful quantum computer. Suppose that we have almost infinite computational resources at our disposal. And now, suppose that someone decides that this is the perfect chance to play god.

      With these infinite resources (and assuming we have a fair knowledge of the universe behind us), it would be possible to create a program that is able to simulate all of physics. Every single rule of the universe would be programmed into a computer, into a single program. A new universe can therefore be created; a digital universe. Since it's still within the realm of our computer, it would be possible to create and destroy matter (since the matter is really technically energy. If you want to really play fair, just start out with a lot of matter and do with it what you will). The programmer would designate a large empty space as an area protected from interference, and would throw enough of the right proportions of matter to form, as we understand, a solar system. Each and every atom would be kept track of, to make sure that each atom follows the rules of the universe. Any cosmic rays can simply be simulated from the outside (without having to waste computational power by actually creating their source).[/b]
      Most of what you talk about in your post is already possible, w/ the exception of the ability to bring characters into the real world. For example, a good programmer could easily create a video game where all of the above occurs in a cyber world. You can also travel in the virtual world by the means of virtual goggles (I don't know the technical term for them ). Actually, you can bring characters into the real world, as holograms. They don't do much, but it is possible. Now you can take any random video game, and program characters to do whatever you want them to be able to do w/o having to worry about the laws of physics or anything else. You could make your character levitate 100 feet off the ground and throw fireballs at some random opponent. They can also be set to act on their own. This is called either auto play or a demo, depending on what mode you set the game on. Now, even w/ these characters already existing in their own little cyber world, they are not real. They have no feelings, no desires, no free will. They do as you tell them to do and always will. The characters cannot suddenly decide that they don't feel like playing you're little game any more and revolt. So, why would any other program be different? Any program, no matter how advanced, would have the same basic concepts of a video game. And no matter how realistic the characters are, you could never truly give them life.
      "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —George Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

    22. #22
      Mostly Absent
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      This is just going to devolve into (if not already there) a mudfight between materialists and dualists/spiritualists/immaterialists/interstellar cheese beings. Basically what we're asking is "if we begin a system with starting variables identical to our universe's, will life and eventually copies of us come to be?" Of course, and all we're arguing about now is (beyond hypotheticality) if that's actually possible or not - whether we can recreate "spirit" in a computer, or if such an ephemeral quality even exists.

      And then it's determinists versus libertarians, and then atheists versus theists, and then we're just chasing each other around the schoolyard with poop-sticks. Yeaahhhhh!
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    23. #23
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Quite interesting topic.

      It reminds me of my 'lets put everyone on heroin in the future' topic. To me, it really comes down to: Does it have value to make people happy (in a perfect world)? I mean seriously, it does personally, but looked it it objectively... What really is the goal here? That digital universe could create a BILLION people that are all as happy all day long as the most happy moment ever experienced by a human being.

      Then what? Create more happy people? What value does it have?

      -

      (in the 'lets put everyone on heroin topic', it got even further: Is one person as happy as physically possible better then thousands or millions? What does the number matter).

      -

      Anyhow, objectively, like on this digital universe topic, I am extremely nihilistic. : ) Good thing that subjectively I do give a shit.
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    24. #24
      The Esoteric Copious taltho's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jeremysr View Post
      If there is no God and no spirits: It would turn out EXACTLY like it did in real life. And it would be a paradox. Because this computer's memory would have to be larger than the whole universe to contain the virtual universe (with the size of our current computer memory, it'd probably be milllions or billions or trillions of times bigger than the universe.) We'd be able to speed up virtual time and see ourselves in the future. That's where the paradox is... us in the virtual universe would eventually get to the point where they'd invent this computer too, that's larger than the universe, and then there would be an infinite of these virtual computers all inside each other.

      But if there is something outside our universe that is controlling any part of it, our virtual world would be much different. It would prove that God exists, but since we'd have to know how the universe began to do this simulation, we'd already have proved He exists.[/b]
      I don't think we'd create ourselves again, as in a paradox, but I do think we'd come closer to the meaning of life/our existence and how we/the "I" are here.

      Also infinity is endless and without beginning... so, sure theres enough room in a computer to run such a program a computer like everything is and holds infinite space and possibility. What the mind can
      conceive and believe it will achieve, computers/programing are a product/example of this.

      I think that this hypothetical experiment shows that it impossible for a soul to exist, unless it is an unquantifiable object that has no mass. Even then, how can a soul be in two places at once without being two souls? Even if it could, would such a creature (two bodies, one soul) have conscious control over two bodies?[/b]
      How can you perceive yourself in hte past, and this moment, or project yourself into hte future without being in two places at once? BTW Great thought.
      Reality is only one moment away form right now is reality. Check... Dream Sign... Engage Lucid Dreaming!

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