Thread: Do You Think Ai Is Possible?

Originally Posted by sogart

Do you think the "creation" of Artificial Intelligence is possible?

With AI I mean agents (probably programs) that can think of themselves and understand their (sp?) existence.

Philosophical thought:

Someone said (bored search for the quote now) something along these lines:

if AI is possible then we almost certainly live in a simulated universe.

why? let's say there is a NORMAL world and the people that live there can create SIMULATED worlds. Since there can be no way for the agents of the simulated world to know of the existence of the real world then we have to assume thats its equally probable that we live in a normal or a simulated world. The number of simulated worlds (and simulated simulated worlds) will be hugely bigger that the number of the original world (1) so statistically we must assume that the most probable (probability almost 1) is that we live in a simulation...

Any thoughts on that? I found it interesting and thought I should share...

PS: The possibility of AI is theoretical, even if we cannot create it now, think about "people" with technology of 1000 years in the future, or even 1 million years in the future.[/b]

Its possible because it is only a matter of time before someone creates a self-aware AI system. Whether it'll be within the next 10 years or 1000... it won't matter. Just like with nuclear fusion and with long-distance space travel and planet colonisation, it will be a matter of time before its achieved.

A simulated universe is a very likely scenario, because not only can everyone around me be simulated AI's, but I could be one myself, and I would never be able to know, due to the nature of my 'programming'. I would be aware of my existence, yes, but I could never truly find out whether my existence is real or not.

Then again, if you're self-aware and living in a universe, it's not really simulated, isn't it? Simulation is pretending, but if it works as well as reality, it's for real, regardless if it's on a super mega futuristic hard drive or not.

Whether AI is really possible kind of depends on your spiritual views. But I'd say that as long as whatever constitutes us is abiding some kind of laws, physical or otherwise, recreating it IS possible. However, this could be the beginning of a very long discussion, so I'll just leave it there without explaining further..

Originally Posted by sogart

Do you think the "creation" of Artificial Intelligence is possible?[/b]

If emotion and self-awareness is something that can be computed, or mathematically solved for some complicated function, then yeah. Anyway, there's already some AI existing today... some even simple ones in the video games. They're very far from being a self-aware system, but think of how much better the AI is nowadays.

Originally Posted by arh

Then again, if you're self-aware and living in a universe, it's not really simulated, isn't it? Simulation is pretending, but if it works as well as reality, it's for real, regardless if it's on a super mega futuristic hard drive or not.

Whether AI is really possible kind of depends on your spiritual views. But I'd say that as long as whatever constitutes us is abiding some kind of laws, physical or otherwise, recreating it IS possible. However, this could be the beginning of a very long discussion, so I'll just leave it there without explaining further.. [/b]

Simulation of reality is possible. Plus what makes you think the system that will host the simulated reality will be based on a standard computer model of today? If anything, it will be hosted by a extremely large and powerful neural network, and any storage system will have to store astronomical amounts of data. It's more likely to be some high-sqeed optical or electronic.

But on the AI aspect, once we simulate consciousness, the real question is can we copy and host it within a machine body and brain? Then you'll have a whole new ethical issue going... is it right to swap our flesh and blood for machine bodies?

I'm inclined to think that A.I. is definitely possible, since in my opinion the soul does not exist. Replicating the brain shouldn't be entirely impossible.

However, I don't agree that this proves we live in a simulated universe. I personally don't see the connection.

Originally Posted by Pensive

I'm inclined to think that A.I. is definitely possible, since in my opinion the soul does not exist. Replicating the brain shouldn't be entirely impossible.

However, I don't agree that this proves we live in a simulated universe. I personally don't see the connection.[/b]

Its just the sort of next step of things.... if one can simulate intelligence and consciousness, what's then stopping us from simulating reality? Once the technology comes along to make an AI with the cognitive and thinking abilities of an adult human (intelligent one that is...), then its not much of a step then after that in order to create a simulated reality, because by then, we would also know a lot about our own minds and how to manipulate them (because otherwise how would we be able to create a self-aware AI if we don't understand our own consciousness).

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Its just the sort of next step of things.... if one can simulate intelligence and consciousness, what's then stopping us from simulating reality? Once the technology comes along to make an AI with the cognitive and thinking abilities of an adult human (intelligent one that is...), then its not much of a step then after that in order to create a simulated reality, because by then, we would also know a lot about our own minds and how to manipulate them (because otherwise how would we be able to create a self-aware AI if we don't understand our own consciousness).[/b]

Right, I see. But that still doesn't prove that our reality is simulated. That can never really be proven.

Humans are machines. Every function in the brain can be measured and calculated. AI is certainly possible.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Simulation of reality is possible. Plus what makes you think the system that will host the simulated reality will be based on a standard computer model of today? If anything, it will be hosted by a extremely large and powerful neural network, and any storage system will have to store astronomical amounts of data. It's more likely to be some high-sqeed optical or electronic.[/b]

My point is not the what technology is used to host the simulation. My point is, it doesn't matter in which form the reality exist. If there are living, breathing creatures in it (like us) it is just as real as the world in which the simulator is placed.

If I were to use an analogy, think about the internet, like this site. You could say nothing here is for real, as all the text and pictures in fact are magnetized iron oxide (or something similar), decoded to electric pulses and as such is only simulated. Catch my drift?

Originally Posted by Pensive

Right, I see. But that still doesn't prove that our reality is simulated. That can never really be proven.[/b]

Of course it can never be proven, but it can't be disproven, because how does one go about disproving their own reality.

...though as soon as someone pulls a Neo, then we'd know the answer

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(arh)</div>

My point is not the what technology is used to host the simulation. My point is, it doesn&#39;t matter in which form the reality exist. If there are living, breathing creatures in it (like us) it is just as real as the world in which the simulator is placed.

If I were to use an analogy, think about the internet, like this site. You could say nothing here is for real, as all the text and pictures in fact are magnetized iron oxide (or something similar), decoded to electric pulses and as such is only simulated. Catch my drift?[/b]

Yeah... I just didn&#39;t read your other post properly.... but anyway, all we perceive our the electrical signals flying through our brains, which are generated by neurons and our senses. Our senses can be easily tricked, so if anything, how can we tell from what is reality and what is not? If anything, by creating simulated realities, one effectively builds multiple layers of existence one person can assume. I could be simulated, or you could and I&#39;m the real one. Since I&#39;m in the simulation, I can never find out. If not, then I my existence is my existence, no matter what.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Since I&#39;m in the simulation, I can never find out. If not, then I my existence is my existence, no matter what.[/b]

True. But the real issue is: if this is a simulation, is all you have ever achieved worth nothing? What if you find the cure for cancer and invent time travel, just to have it wiped by Xorg who needed space for his new intergalactic movie torrents?

"What&#39;s the meaning of life?" really sounds like a silly question then.

Originally Posted by arh

True. But the real issue is: if this is a simulation, is all you have ever achieved worth nothing? What if you find the cure for cancer and invent time travel, just to have it wiped by Xorg who needed space for his new intergalactic movie torrents?

"What&#39;s the meaning of life?" really sounds like a silly question then.[/b]

Well... I doubt it will be that simple. Perhaps we are all simulated, and the simulation itself is just a science experiment to see how civilization develops, and see what variability could occur when certain events are changed or just postponed. And then one could say that &#39;God&#39; is a scientist, watching down at us all through a screen, interpreting our developments. Now that would be an interesting twist, wouldn&#39;t it?

I think a computer program can eventually do whatever a human can do, EXCEPT be aware of itself. Computer programs will NEVER be able to feel the same way we do: aware that we exist. The only thing computers can do, is do whatever they are told. That&#39;s all they do. We can tell them to do very complex instructions that will make them look like they are self-aware and as intelligent as a human. But they will never really be truely self-aware like humans are. It&#39;s impossible. They&#39;ll only pretend to be self-aware (and only because we told them to.)

This has become my main reason to believe we aren&#39;t just brains (and for SURE our brains aren&#39;t computers.)

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

I think a computer program can eventually do whatever a human can do, EXCEPT be aware of itself. Computer programs will NEVER be able to feel the same way we do: aware that we exist. The only thing computers can do, is do whatever they are told. That&#39;s all they do. We can tell them to do very complex instructions that will make them look like they are self-aware and as intelligent as a human. But they will never really be truely self-aware like humans are. It&#39;s impossible. They&#39;ll only pretend to be self-aware (and only because we told them to.)

This has become my main reason to believe we aren&#39;t just brains (and for SURE our brains aren&#39;t computers.)[/b]

I disagree with that. All it takes to create a self aware system is to get good enough programming (software based consciousness), or create a neural network computer which functions like a brain and hard-wire a parallel processing system from that to recreate a conscious neural activity pattern that would be seen in a normal, human brain. All it takes is getting the technology to that point. There are already computer programs which can learn (to a certain extent), so all it takes is to develop the program until it gains self awareness.

Our brains are computers... just extremely complex, biological computers that work under completely different principles than normal computers are governed by. Brains don&#39;t have clock frequencies, are examples of a very complex parallel processing computer, and is effectively a neural network. Artificial neural networks already exist, but none as complex as the human brain. All we need to do is understand our own consciousness, and what defines it (if anything defines it, that is) before we start progressing and creating self aware computers.

I do agree that self-aware computers won&#39;t feel the same emotions as us, since emotions are caused by hormones and the way they affect our brain, but they can be programmed to have a limited capacity for emotion, though only to help it interact better with humans. However, you never know with these things...

Well I am very interested in AI and so have thought a lot about this sort of thing. And I&#39;m 100% sure it&#39;s impossible for a computer to be truly aware of itself (and that doesn&#39;t have to do with my belief that we all have spirits.)

Even though to you, computers seem to do things on their own, they ONLY do what they are told to do. This makes it completely impossible for them to be truly self-aware. It doesn&#39;t matter how many artificial neurons they have.

That&#39;s the only way I can really explain it to everyone.

Any other programmer will give you the same answer. I just searched on google.com about it and one site said that humans actually aren&#39;t self-aware.

In my opinion it&#39;s because we think we are just a brain and we really don&#39;t want to be wrong about that.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

Well I am very interested in AI and so have thought a lot about this sort of thing. And I&#39;m 100% sure it&#39;s impossible for a computer to be truly aware of itself (and that doesn&#39;t have to do with my belief that we all have spirits.)

Even though to you, computers seem to do things on their own, they ONLY do what they are told to do. This makes it completely impossible for them to be truly self-aware. It doesn&#39;t matter how many artificial neurons they have.

That&#39;s the only way I can really explain it to everyone.

Any other programmer will give you the same answer. I just searched on google.com about it and one site said that humans actually aren&#39;t self-aware.

In my opinion it&#39;s because we think we are just a brain and we really don&#39;t want to be wrong about that.[/b]

I am sure a computer can acquire the ability to become aware of its own existence. However, we have to remember, we ourselves are programmed at the very basic level through our DNA, and at more complex levels through the way we are brought up. So technically, a human (just like every other living thing in this world) is a programmed organism (though this is also programming not only our mind, but the way we develop, look, and how our biochemistry works). So in a sense, we can program computers into becoming self-aware, we just need to create the program first and then switch it on. A learning system, one which would have potential to become self-aware, will need to be taught once it is activated, conditioned so it learns how to act, react, and ultimate think for itself (just like how babies/children develop). Eventually (theoretically) the machine will acquire self-awareness through what it has learnt and experienced.

In a way, we ourselves aren&#39;t completely self-aware (but this is debatable), and free choice could be all an illusion created by our mind. That means, programming something to be &#39;self-aware&#39; could actually be easier than it seems, because then the illusion of self-awareness can then be applied to machine.

I know you believe in the existence of a soul, but if a machine does acquire self-awareness (let&#39;s just speculate for the moment), would that mean the machine would acquire its own soul, endowed through its creator (not God but us). One might say consciousness is our soul, so in acquiring consciousness would mean acquiring a soul, whilst I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll argue a soul being a separate thing.

I don&#39;t doubt AI can become sophisticated enough in order to become self-aware, the problem is what happens then? Do we give robots/AI&#39;s rights of their own? Or do we program rules into them to prevent dissent?

So your only reason of believing self-awareness is possible in a computer, is because humans can be self-aware and humans are a lot like computers?


How can something be "partly self-aware"? I always thought there were only two things you could be: aware of yourself, or unaware of yourself.


Yes, I think if a computer was self-aware it would mean it would have a soul. An object can&#39;t be self-aware, only the spirit that has control over it can... (I think it&#39;s impossible for a spirit to control a computer though. It would have to switch millions of switches extremely quick and they both don&#39;t know how and probably aren&#39;t a strong enough to do this.)


If computers were self-aware, it&#39;d be impossible to tell for certain if they were. (We&#39;re pretty sure other humans are self-aware only because they are just like us, other humans...) Even if we programmed rules at them, they might find a way to break them. They might be able to edit their own code. It depends how intelligent they are. If we make them intelligent enough, they&#39;ll probably be able to make themselves even more intelligent... (I can&#39;t really think about this, I see no way it could be possible with current types of computers (circuits/switches). So I can hardly get any idea of how they would really act or what they would do.)

I think computers could eventually become self-aware, and create art and music, if we put enough effort into their design. It doesn&#39;t matter really if you believe in souls or not. If so, all you have to do is turn your thinking inside out: not "humans have souls" but "souls have bodies".
Anyway, like Jeremysr said, it may be impossible to prove that such robots are conscious, so the point is moot, unless you happen to get re-incarnated or something and find yourself inhabiting a computer.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

I think computers could eventually become self-aware, and create art and music, if we put enough effort into their design. It doesn&#39;t matter really if you believe in souls or not. If so, all you have to do is turn your thinking inside out: not "humans have souls" but "souls have bodies".
Anyway, like Jeremysr said, it may be impossible to prove that such robots are conscious, so the point is moot, ...[/b]

Can you proove that anyone else is concious? Like your family, friends or anyone else. The more you look at people, the more they seem like robots, or programs. This discussion really can&#39;t proove either side, because some believe in free will and some don&#39;t. I don&#39;t and that&#39;s the reason I think we are computers and we allready are programmed- have no free will.

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

So your only reason of believing self-awareness is possible in a computer, is because humans can be self-aware and humans are a lot like computers?
How can something be "partly self-aware"? I always thought there were only two things you could be: aware of yourself, or unaware of yourself.
Yes, I think if a computer was self-aware it would mean it would have a soul. An object can&#39;t be self-aware, only the spirit that has control over it can... (I think it&#39;s impossible for a spirit to control a computer though. It would have to switch millions of switches extremely quick and they both don&#39;t know how and probably aren&#39;t a strong enough to do this.)
If computers were self-aware, it&#39;d be impossible to tell for certain if they were. (We&#39;re pretty sure other humans are self-aware only because they are just like us, other humans...) Even if we programmed rules at them, they might find a way to break them. They might be able to edit their own code. It depends how intelligent they are. If we make them intelligent enough, they&#39;ll probably be able to make themselves even more intelligent... (I can&#39;t really think about this, I see no way it could be possible with current types of computers (circuits/switches). So I can hardly get any idea of how they would really act or what they would do.)[/b]

Its a little more complicated than that. Humans are self-aware and are effectively &#39;programmed&#39; beings (not computers). As we grow, we learn about the world around us and how to interact with it, but if you isolate a young child completely, then the child would not learn anything new, nor would he/she learn how to interact with humans. A learning AI (which we already exist) goes through a similar process, picking up patterns in whatever its programmed to analyse or calculate, and then applying what it knows in helping it come up with more accurate/appropriate answers.

And yes, we wouldn&#39;t know how a self-aware system would behave, because they would be emotionless. Whereas for the soul bit, perhaps its spirit is less like our own and more like something that would enable it &#39;control&#39; over the machine? Besides, a processor is a hell of a lot more than just switches (I do Computer Science in university... I could go on all about them... and anyway, its transistors which are the fundamental building blocks for processors, switches that are activated by passing a voltage over a semi-conductor, enabling it to become conductive, let the main current through). And with robots making themselves more intelligent, then its all a matter of upgrades. Self-aware robots will have a complex but compact neural network processing system, so they could always supplement certain aspects of their mind with more powerful alternatives (use a standard processor for math&#39;s calculations, etc). That way they could boost their mental abilities. Plus, once they are self-aware, they will inevitably seek to understand themselves, and from there, would find ways to produce themselves (once something becomes self-aware, survival will inevitably cross their minds). And besides, a created and self-aware AI could even find better ways to program more intelligent AI&#39;s along with more efficiently designed &#39;shells&#39; in which to host the AI within. Then we would have created a new form of Life, almost becoming like Gods to the newly self-aware robots.

Of course, it would be incredibly hard to discern whether a robot or AI is self-aware/conscious, and if anything, I reckon it would be a while now before we ever reach that stage (if I see it within my lifetime, I will be impressed). But anyway, I think I should stop watching the Animatrix so much... heh

a fast reply because I have to run...

AI does not have to be Intelligence simulating the human brain or the human emotions etc. A big part of the research on AI works on evolved systems that obviously can give different ways of Intelligence.

That the "Simulated" world can feel real to the entities within it is of course the basis of it being a good simulation. But this doesn&#39;t mean that it has the same structure or complexity as the "Real" world that created it. Imagine a very simple AI that can communicate with you in your computer (let&#39;s say the Annoying M&#036; Word Helper guy has self-awareness). His Universe is the program within which he operates, and he can go around and do things on his own and help you. His world is one dimensional based on the information you provide through your texts. There is no way he can play basketball in the real world or even understand what it is on his own (as we cannot understand a 100dimensional space and how things might move in it).

So the basic point: If AI (or say Artificial Self Awareness?) can exist, then WE most probably live in a Simulated World (see first post) and there are several more Simulated Worlds (although they are all out of our reach probably- this is purely speculation as there (can be no) are no signs about that)...

By believing in the poossibility of creating an AI, you at the same time kind of acepts that our consciousness only consist of allgorithms and in short is nothing but atoms and empty space.

I think tha creating an AI is impossible. Simple because our consciousness have to consist of more than algorithms. Take for example the impact a special experience has on us. It consist of feelings, which in turn might be explained as something artificial. But the fact is that YOU have experienced it. This kind of awereness over actually being there when it happends, is something which at least I can&#39;t accept only as atoms and empty space.

If a neurological sytem can be wired to have intelligence, a system of wires can have neurological intelligence.

True AI - no anytime soon.

Why? Because we don&#39;t even know where "we" the "observor" are. It&#39;s almost as if we are "behind the brain" and completely undetectable by science. (like a soul)

Something might be programmed to say that it is aware of its own existance. I would say we could very close to simulating AI - but never actually create AI that is like human the conscious.

Will this robot dream? Will it have some sort of subconscious, and parts of it like the id, ego, and super-ego?

I&#39;d say we can achieve the super-ego, but never a "true" ego and definently not the id - and because of this, never be able to create AI on the scale of human consciousness.

I saw someone mention above, and I will say, the only way I could see this being possible is if this universe itself is actually a simulation.