Ludic dreaming mentally unhealthy?

**Human** · 05-28-2004 03:30 PM

I found a site some days ago, and here is a quotation from it, who are on topic:

Preface to the Second Edition: *

LUCID DREAMING AND MENTAL HEALTH
Within the human brain there is a neurotransmitter called Serotonin. Empirical studies have established a number of things about this important chemical, of which the following are germane to this work on Lucid Dreaming:

Its presence in the brain at the correct level is vital to good mental health. An abnormally high amount of Serotonin causes Mania (paranoia, schizoidal episodes etc); an abnormally low amount causes Depression. *
Serotonin is naturally replenished by dreamless sleep: however, REM-sleep (Rapid Eye Movement sleep - the kind in which dreams with strong visual imagery occur) depletes it. *
What has this to do with Lucid Dreaming? Simply put, Lucid Dreaming consists of a collection of techniques which aim at stimulating and enhancing REM-sleep, and thereby depleting the brain's natural Serotonin levels. I mention this because I have come across a large number of people who are interested in the Occult - and who also suffer Depression. I am faced with the growing conviction that the high incidence of Depression among Occultists is either caused or exacerbated by the wrongful use of techniques such as Lucid Dreaming, and like techniques whereby the person retreats into a dream-world. *

Therefore, the following pieces of guidance can be put forward:

The excessive use of Lucid Dreaming tends to cause Depression; *
If a person already suffering from Depression attempts to become a lucid dreamer, they are making their condition worse; *
If a person is on a course of anti-depressants (e.g. Prozac, Seroxat, etc which work by boosting Serotonin levels), attempting to dream Lucidly will vitiate the effects of the medication. *
In light of the above, I can hardly caution readers wanting to know about Lucid Dreaming too strongly. We may laugh at the fundamentalist Christian or the superstitious low-brow who claims dabbling with the occult is tantamount to truck with demons, and against God's will, but we must laugh at ourselves and our own rank foolishness when the scientist presents evidence to say they might have a point. *

The revised and recently-implemented Lucid Dreaming Protocols of the Hermetic Order of Sol Ascendans take this into account, and state that Dreamwork is only to be attempted within a single 56 hour period per Lunar Month - which effectively means on two consecutive nights only. The rest of the time - approximately 26 days - not only is no attempt made to dream lucidly, but every attempt is made to sleep dreamlessly (or as much as is possible). This is considerably more difficult than the former method, which was to at least attempt to practice Lucid Dreaming and its associated techniques nightly. However, it is undoubtedly safer, and strikes what I hope is a balance between the hazards of Lucid dreaming, and its benefits. *

I am caught in the position that I honestly believe that Lucid Dreaming is both a very good and very dangerous thing. Good, in that I have used it successfully for a number of purposes, all of which I am very proud to have done: works of Theurgy, healing rituals, and so forth. Dangerous, in that I cannot in any conscience endanger the mental well-being of any eager young neophyte. I speak as one who has himself suffered Depressive moods in the past, which I see with hindsight as nothing but my own fault. *

In conclusion, I earnestly advise all readers to take these words of warning to heart. The information presented in this book details \"How to do it\", but that should not be taken as an encouragement that \"You should do it\". *

If you suffer from Depression, or are taking anti-depressants, I advise you Not to attempt to dream Lucidly. If you do not fall into any of these categories, I would nevertheless advise you to deliberately limit the time spent attempting to dream Lucidly - spacing the occasions of practice with long periods of non-practice, perhaps in the manner suggested above, or even less frequently. If you start to fall into Depression, increase the length of non-practice time between Lucid Dreaming attempts or stop it altogether. Lucid Dreaming on a more regular basis than this is at your own risk. *

[/b]

Therefore, I think lucid dreaming can be unhealthy for depressed people.

The whole site is here: http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/lucid...id2.htm#preface

**Alric** · 05-28-2004 05:32 PM

I think it would go the other way around. Normally if you lucid dream a lot you spend less time in REM sleep because you wake up easier and don't go the full time. I am not sure if its noticeable though. I don't know anyone who can increase how long they spend in REM though, most things work after your already in that stage and already dreaming.

**Aphius** · 05-29-2004 09:48 AM

I mention this because I have come across a large number of people who are interested in the Occult - and who also suffer Depression. I am faced with the growing conviction that the high incidence of Depression among Occultists is either caused or exacerbated by the wrongful use of techniques such as Lucid Dreaming, and like techniques whereby the person retreats into a dream-world.
[/b]

OMG! ur all memberz of teh occult! suXX0rz!

After reading that lucid dreaming might be bad... I really don't care.

**Howie** · 05-29-2004 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Human
If you suffer from Depression, or are taking anti-depressants, I advise you Not to attempt to dream Lucidly. If you do not fall into any of these categories, I would nevertheless advise you to deliberately limit the time spent attempting to dream Lucidly - spacing the occasions of practice with long periods of non-practice, perhaps in the manner suggested above, or even less frequently. If you start to fall into Depression, increase the length of non-practice time between Lucid Dreaming attempts or stop it altogether. Lucid Dreaming on a more regular basis than this is at your own risk.

As far as long term side effects we may not no. However. The author of the above story may have been going through a state of depression during this time in which he was a Lucid dreamer. For the sake of this argument I will indulge you with the information that my, shall I say counseler, who is a board a certified LISW, is the one who introduced me to Lucid dream to over come some of my depression problems.

**Human** · 05-29-2004 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Human

If you suffer from Depression, or are taking anti-depressants, I advise you Not to attempt to dream Lucidly. If you do not fall into any of these categories, I would nevertheless advise you to deliberately limit the time spent attempting to dream Lucidly - spacing the occasions of practice with long periods of non-practice, perhaps in the manner suggested above, or even less frequently. If you start to fall into Depression, increase the length of non-practice time between Lucid Dreaming attempts or stop it altogether. Lucid Dreaming on a more regular basis than this is at your own risk.

As far as long term side effects we may not no. However. The author of the above story may have been going through a state of depression during this time in which he was a Lucid dreamer. For the sake of this argument I will indulge you with the information that my, shall I say counseler, who is a board a certified LISW, is the one who introduced me to Lucid dream to over come some of my depression problems.[/b]

I must admit that I don't have too much clue about this. I only wanted to show this quotation, since it is on topic to this thread.

**evangel** · 05-29-2004 08:19 PM

Not sure what your last post was all about, but I appreciate your previous posts Human. Interesting stuff!

**Human** · 05-30-2004 06:48 AM

Originally posted by evangel
I appreciate your previous posts Human. Interesting stuff!

Thanks.
Wanted to get viewpoints about it; if lucid dreaming could be unhealthy for people suffering from depression, etc.

**Lord of the Flies** · 05-30-2004 05:38 PM

Thanks.
Wanted to get viewpoints about it; if lucid dreaming could be unhealthy for people suffering from depression, etc.[/b]

I have to admit that that is the very reason I started this thread.

**nocturnal drone** · 05-30-2004 09:25 PM

i kind of agree on the point of lucid dreaming may cause severe depression...
but there is the point that id like to make...
i have a lucid dream at least one or two times a week if not more...
ive had/have depression on and off...
it usually comes around when i go more than a week without some sort of long crazy dream...
it makes me think that my brain is trying to hide something or my conscious isnt connecting to my subconscious...
i dont really worship the occult but i am into the whole mind and matter balancing...
the more i have these dreams the happier i seem to be...
almost like its an addictive drug i cant shake off...
its just my little way of escaping reality for a fun little adventure...
but theres also a little depression due to the reality of the dreams and never wanting to leave...
but its canceled out because it makes me a little more happy every time...

Ev · 05-30-2004 11:00 PM

I agree with nocturnal and feel very much the same way.

Lucid dreaming is what pulled me out of severe depression and suicidal intentions...

**Lord of the Flies** · 05-31-2004 02:42 AM

At the present time I've got a few issues and problems of my own and I feel as if lucid dreaming's my only escape from all of it. The problem is that I wish I could sleep 24/7. Thank God it's impossible otherwise I think that's what I'd be doing instead of facing the music.

**toomanypossibilities** · 05-31-2004 07:42 AM

another view with the whole depression thing.

Some scientists believe that dreaming is your brain at work processing information to be stored into long term memory, as well as working out emotional issues (be they minor or major ones).

Now, if you are constantly having LD's, therefore constantly hijacking your dreams ( your brain's natural system for processing information) could it be counter productive to healthy errrrrr.... ness.

In my very limited experience with LDing , I think there is much more to gain than there is to lose. Yet the point is still valid.

Now when dealing with depression..... hrm. Here is an excerpt from "The Mind at Night" by Andrea Rock..

Based on studies published in 1998, that compared dreaming patterns among sixty normal adults and seventy who were clinically depressed, Cartwright says that for most people, dreams in the first REM period of the night contain the most negative emotion, and in each successive REM period, dreams become more positive emotionally.

In people who suffer from depression, however, the dreaming pattern differs significantly. They tend to have their first period of REM earlier in the night than nondepressed people do, and the dreams they report at that stage are surprisingly lacking in emotion of any kind. But as the nght wears on, their dreams become progressively more negative.[/b]

Now which came first, the depression or the negative dream pattern?

I don't know, i havn't finished reading the book.

If it was depression first, then i think lucid dreaming (with professional guidance) can help to identify issues and even face them in lucid dreams.

If it was the negative sleep pattern first, it may be the (or one of the) cause(s) for the depression. If your brain is not properly processing negative emotions , you would wake up just as sad/angry/depressed as you did when you went to sleep. Those negative feelings would build up over time and boom, depression.
IF (and i'm just hypothesizing) that is the case, then again lucid dreaming might be used as a tool to break the bad cycle. but once again, ONLY WITH PROFESSIONAL GUIDANCE.

**Lord of the Flies** · 06-01-2004 01:12 AM

Hmmm...*rubs chin*...

It makes sense to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's ever woken up angry or sad for an unknown reason. I, however, think that it would be the depression that came first, unless you mean this as a day by day type of thing.

**jason9987** · 06-02-2004 04:58 AM

Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Lord of the Flies

In my oppinion dreams can't effect you physically....

HOPEfully not...

I've mentioned this a couple other times but got no \"substantial\" responses on this forum. I'm concerned that long-term LDers like myself could be negatively affected physically due to things like the adrenal glands working overtime, increased heart rate, blood pressure, chemical activity in the brain, etc.? Anybody done any research on this? There's probably been no in-depth studies yet, or they may be in progress, but I'm wondering if my fears may be substantiated or if I'm just paranoid. I mentioned my concern to my physician, and he looked at me kinda sideways, then said something like \"I wouldn't worry about it.\" I'm convinced that he's clueless about LDs or their propensity for extreme intensity. any thoughts on this?[/b]

LDing should not negatively affect you physically due to things like adrenal glands working overtime, increased heart rate, blood pressure, chemical activity in the brain, etc any more than regular dreaming, I think, although it sounds unusual, the best comparison between LDing and normal dreaming in how it affects you phisicly would be the difference between playing a video game and holding a contorller in your hand moving the joysticks and such while you watch someone else play and are completly convinced that you are playing. I know that sound weird but it kind of makes sense.

**Placebo** · 06-02-2004 09:44 AM

My personal views on the what dreams are for, etc
(These are my personal opinions, and it may have some faults. Criticise if you will, but be constructive please)

The synapses in our brains are 'powered' by chemical reactions. These synapses are responsible for maintaining the associations in our memories and skills. Eg. what muscles to move when eating.
The chemicals in these synapses seep away slowly when not in use, resulting in 'memory loss'. More accurately - the associations are lost. Not the neurons.
In our dreams, we play over things that we find important to remember of our day, or month. Figuratively oftentimes - this depends on how deeply you tend to think about things I suppose. The net result is that you are testing and revitalising the associations that you want to keep - and not forget.
Thats why memory suffers so badly during sleep deprivation. And why 'insanity' might kick in - your views on things become slanted because the associations responsible for balancing out your reasoning become... faulty (for lack of a better word)

I intend trying to test this concept on a computer

**toomanypossibilities** · 06-02-2004 09:07 PM

Placebo, ok now keeping in line with your theory on things (which is pretty much the same as mine)

if you keep having lucid dreams, so basically not letting your brain pick which events/emotions to replay over in your mind, don't you think that would be counter-productive to maintaining those memories?

because you aren't letting your brain refresh the memories that it normally would when you change the course of your dreams.

**Lord of the Flies** · 06-03-2004 03:32 AM

Placebo's theory makes perfect sense to me. I know this might sound a little dispositional as a question, but am I the only one who feels as if my mind and subconscience is being "tugged" while I LD? Kind of like an insect walking on the "membrane" of the surface of the water.

What's more, it would explain why our subconscience is often "against" us when we LD it feels as if the dream we control feels like a slim membrane on top of the reality of things. Or would the second fact only relate to me?

~Lord Of the Flies who feels alone, but who's too tired to care.

**Placebo** · 06-03-2004 08:13 AM

counter-productive to maintaining those memories[/b]

Possibly. I had two reasons why it doesn't bother me too much.
One... in a lucid dream, I still allow my subconscious some control.
I might pick where to go in the dream, but my subconscious can still be silly and make eg. pink elephants fly around my head.
Two... I don't lucid dream in every dream I have. Not many of us can. Remember the funny problems Onus once had? (in memorable topics) I wouldn't be suprised if it had some relation to what we're talking about.

explain why our subconscience is often \"against\" us[/b]

No you're not the only one who's noticed this. I started a thread about it before. I was never sure whether this was because of internal issues/personal things I need to work on, or if it really was the subconscious being upset with interrupting his 'job'

Dunno if you read my thread about my dream of talking to my subconscious. I'm pretty sure after that, that your subconscious isn't too happy with the lucid dreaming thing. I'm trying to find a way to balance things out so I can lucid dream and still keep my subconscious happy.

**Juaneit** · 09-21-2008 06:11 AM

I have experienced distress from too much LD.

For example, it happens often that I panic inside the LD and cannot wake up. Or I wake up in annother dream, fearing I'll never be able to wake up.

Does this happen to anyone?

Plus, I began questioning reality too much, and thought I might be going crazy. A very clear feeling I had was that I was getting into something I did not have the 'energy' to handle, and that it could be harmful.

Acutally, one night, at the peak of my LD activity many years ago, a strange vibration (like coming from a tuning fork woke me up) I swear I was awake, and yet the vibration was still there. I've never been so scared in my whole life. I felt something was making contact with me. And fear overcame me.
It felt like a point of no return. And I like sanity too much...

**Juaneit** · 09-21-2008 06:13 AM

I agree! I feel like my subconscious doesnt want me to find out I'm dreaming and does all it can to distract me and get my back into the stream of the dream story.

Did you talk directly to your subconscious? What did it say?

**Xaqaria** · 09-30-2008 08:18 AM

How do you think it would be possible to disrupt the workings of your mind, using only your mind? It sounds like you believe the conscious mind and the subconscious mind are two seperate entities that work independantly of each other, which is not the case. You influence your subconcious mind while you are awake in the same ways you can while you are sleeping.

Originally Posted by Human

I found a site some days ago, and here is a quotation from it, who are on topic:

Therefore, I think lucid dreaming can be unhealthy for depressed people.

The whole site is here: http://www.geocities.com/alex_sumner/lucid...id2.htm#preface

That geocities site is not exactly an authority on the scientific research on lucid dreams and serotonin levels, and doesn't even list any scientific research whatsoever in its bibliography.

As far as I know, no one here is able to increase the length of their REM cycle or even effect it at all with any technique for lucid dreaming. People dream on a nightly basis. The only thing that becoming lucid changes is the level of awareness during these pre-existing dreaming times.

**arby** · 10-01-2008 06:35 AM

Dear god, that was an epic bump.

**Xaqaria** · 10-01-2008 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by arby

Dear god, that was an epic bump.

There has been a rash of that stuff in the last few days (mostly by a new member, oleander; although not this one) I didn't even notice the date on this until I read your post.