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    1. #1
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      The Cutaneous Rabbit

      I found this awesome bit of information in a book I've got on conciousness. Thought I'd share.

      Basically, this is a neurological phenomena. It was first described in 1972.

      What happens is this: the subject lies their arm flat. They are then tapped in a strict rhythm, three times on the wrist, twice on the elbow, and twice on the shoulder.

      However, this is not what is felt by the patient; instead, one feels the sensation of a series of taps steadily progressing up the arm.

      It doesn't sound that weird at first, but consider;

      How does the brain KNOW that the correct sequence of taps will be performed in the future?

      If you simply were to tap the wrist three times, you'd feel three taps on the wrist.

      But when you follow through with the rest of the pattern, the first three taps are not felt in the same place.

      So is the brain somehow recieving information from the future?

      Discuss.

    2. #2
      TPV ThePhobiaViewed's Avatar
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      Hmmm, not much discussing I see. Instead of recieving info from the future maybe the brain is looking at the series of taps as a whole and changing what your memory of it is as it progresses. This is really confusing because its like impossible to word correctly but basically what I'm saying is that when it feels the taps on the wrist then it switches to the elbow that it is kind of referencing the taps off of each other and making the memory of where they were at at midway locations. So basically instead of knowing the future it is changing the past. I could be completely wrong but no one else knew either I guess.

    3. #3
      Saddle Up Half/Dreaming's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ThePhobiaViewed View Post
      Hmmm, not much discussing I see. Instead of recieving info from the future maybe the brain is looking at the series of taps as a whole and changing what your memory of it is as it progresses. This is really confusing because its like impossible to word correctly but basically what I'm saying is that when it feels the taps on the wrist then it switches to the elbow that it is kind of referencing the taps off of each other and making the memory of where they were at at midway locations. So basically instead of knowing the future it is changing the past. I could be completely wrong but no one else knew either I guess.

      It is pretty well know that the brain can create feelings that aren't there. I suggest reading about "Phantom limb pain"
      Still can't WILD........

    4. #4
      TPV ThePhobiaViewed's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming View Post
      It is pretty well know that the brain can create feelings that aren't there. I suggest reading about "Phantom limb pain"
      I don't really think that applies to this though. Xei's point was that the sensation you get is different for the first couple taps depending on where the second group is tapped at. If they are all tapped at the wrist you will feel them all at the wrist but if the second group is at the elbow then the first group will not all have felt like they are at the wrist. What you are saying kinda goes with what I said in that the mind uses all the information and then gives you the feeling of a logical end result.

      Just as a side note I remember Red Elk (I think thats his name) being on Coast to Coast AM and talking about him curing his phantom limb pain by messaging the nonexisting body part. The minds very powerful so who knows about all this stuff anyway.

    5. #5
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      I think that simply your brain forgets what it knew and remembers taps going up the arm, even though its wrong.

    6. #6
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      I think the brain gets used to the rhythm, and is already expecting the taps further up the arm. It relocates the feeling of the taps from down the arm somewhat in that direction.

      Nothing with future-looking powers here.
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    7. #7
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      That's not true, and can be easily proved by not executing the whole pattern at random. If you were expecting the pattern to continue, then the first few taps would be felt progressing up the arm, but this does not happen.

      I think they asked subjects to press a button as soon as they felt taps in the same place, which everybody did, but later they believed that the taps had been progressive. So I suppose the brain just destroys the true memory and puts a new one there instead.

      I'd love to have experiment this done to me... it sounds so weird, your brain shunting neurons around so easily and deceptively.

    8. #8
      FreeSpirit RooJ's Avatar
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      I think they asked subjects to press a button as soon as they felt taps in the same place, which everybody did, but later they believed that the taps had been progressive. So I suppose the brain just destroys the true memory and puts a new one there instead.
      I just read this, thought it might be of interest:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...28/ixhome.html

      Going by that I don't think it just alters the memory, the brain actually reacts as if the taps are real in real-time. Its more likely a flaw/clue in how the brain processes data from the nervous system or how the nervous system isn't perfect.

      How far apart in time were the taps anyway? Was it very rapid, tapping the wrist then very quickly tapping the elbow?

    9. #9
      TPV ThePhobiaViewed's Avatar
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      Hmm good article. Seems that Half/Dreaming was right about it being connected to phantom limb pain, I wasn't really looking at it in that way before I read the article. The brain is a curious thing. I have this book about neuroplasticity and about some guy treating OCD by creating new pathways in the brain and rewiring. It's called "The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force" by Jeffrey M . Schwartz. Pretty interesting stuff, although it probably has nothing to do with this discussion. They say the human mind is one of the most complex things in the universe so I'll leave it to the experts to figure this stuff out.

    10. #10
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Neruo View Post
      I think the brain gets used to the rhythm, and is already expecting the taps further up the arm. It relocates the feeling of the taps from down the arm somewhat in that direction.

      Nothing with future-looking powers here.
      except that the rhythm is the same if you only tap three on the wrist. The only difference is that you stop the pattern half way in one case and you continue with the other. What he is saying is that the brain "knows" which you are going to do before you go beyond just tapping the wrist.

      In my opinion the "altered memory" theory would be a good one unless the researchers had the subject state where the taps were coming from as they received them. In that case, altered memory would be ruled out.

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