Is sanity/logic truly defined by the majority?

[Keeper]

If everyone on the planet, save one, believed something, but the one other did not, would he be "insane" or "illogical"?

[Replicon]

Chances are, yes! With the ridiculously large sample space, a single belief that is truly unique (and not constructed from other pieces) is almost certainly going to be something eccentric and either silly, harmful, or both. If it's a really good idea, then it doesn't stay 100% unique for too long. You might say, "well, what about all the great thinkers who have had brilliant, unique beliefs that have changed the world for the better?" I submit that brilliant as they were, those beliefs were not unique. What made the difference was that one person with the belief had three things going for him: 1) The belief 2) Motivation (i.e. bias for action, or whatever you want to call it) 3) The opportunity to do something about it presented itself first.

[Serkat]

Well, sanity depends on society as it is a subset of the concept health which can be defined in various ways. Logic, however, is characterized by being cool, independent of social norms. This is to say, A=A and !(A!=A) is true, always, just as all other tools of logic that man has come up with. Certainly someone who has a unique belief will be considered insane by society, depending on the nature of the belief, but not illogical, except for the case of the belief being illogical in itself.

[Original Poster]

As far as sanity goes, no one quite fits the bill there. As far as logic goes, let's take the reptillian conspiracy. View it objectively, and it makes sense. It can be logical. That to me shows how logic is fallible. There are many things that can appear logical to an objective mind if the material is argued correctly. Of course you're asking if everyone disagrees with a concept except one person, well there are millions of people that believe the reptillian conspiracy. Logic has too much power to stay in the hands of one unless he simply refused to communicate his ideas or he was some sort of super genius and the argument went over the heads of everybody else so they brushed him off. What societies like to do is label things ridiculous, which essentially means "to invite ridicule" and that's often how less educated people in societies discern things that could be both logical and comparitively sane, because the people are simply afraid of being ridiculed if they somehow agreed with this person. Not everyone has this fear though, and so ideas that can be argued correctly can still spread through societies. Of course a more educated person can view ideas that appear logical and find the holes in such theories, but 4/5 times they're simply getting defensive they'll lose their sheep and just ridicule them in arguments sugar coated in fallacal logic.

[Idolfan]

Taking one example, there are literally billions of religious people in the world who consider themselves sane, whereas I find it incomprehensive as to how people can beleive such things. As a result I think I'm the sanest person on Earth but I'm a minority... so really either we are all sane or all insane; unless someone is truely insane like kept in a madhouse or something.

[NonDualistic]

Plato's Cave is relavant to this topic http://www.plotinus.com/plato_allegory_of_the_cave.htm Summary with Illustration http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

[Burned up]

If everyone on the planet, save one, believed something, but the one other did not, would he be "insane" or "illogical"? If you mean is insanity socially construed then yes it is. "There is a little madness in all of us" Locke

[kornwithakay]

I once heard a parable about King and his faithful adviser. The adviser warns him that next year the wheat crop will be diseased, and all who eat from it will become crazy. He tells the king that if they begin now they can save up wheat for the royal families for next year. The men realize that either they eat of the crop and become mad as well – or – they don’t eat of it. But if they are sane and everyone else is mad, it will appear as if they are the ones who are mad! This feels a little bit like fear as it drives our society – that we’re catching this fear from what we eat, what we take in, or imbibe, as we go through each day. In the end, they decide to eat the wheat, but before they do so, they each put a mark on the other’s face, so that, even in the midst of madness, they can look at one another, and be reminded by that mark, by the other, of what is really true.

[Original Poster]

Wow that's excellent. Perfect way to explain society. People know certain paths are insane but walk them anyway for fear their sanity will ostracize them.

[Cyclic13]

I just posted this in a similar thread, but found it more pertinently placed here. If you already read it, then simply pass over it. I don't get it. Are you advocating schizophrenia still? Are you saying that I, as a diagnosed schizophrenic, am still one just with a different "mask"? If so, this is resembing scientology. However, I am curious what you are saying because I can certainly tell you that I am nothing like what I was when I was diagnosed with schizophrenia. You can probably even see for yourself by searching this board and reading my first 100 posts. ~ I'm not advocating it, so much as, saying that everyone has their skeletons that they hide from prying eyes. Some have bigger fish to fry than others, and some are just better at hiding them than others. Any trip to see the selection at an adult video store, or story from businessmen frequenting lady-boys in Taiwan will tell you-- People are sick. Some may come to grips with, and openly accept their skeletons which may manifest itself into their daily lives which naturally unsettles and scares people because it draws attention to their diversion from the pack signaling their discontent with the system, and forces the observer to reflect on and gauge their own skeletons. Im sure you realize, the system is an entity unto itself and derives it's so-called sanity and solace in numbers. As numbers wane away from it's trough, the system deems those that do unworthy of the label 'sane', as they arbitrarily see fit. The term, 'sane', would imply the system being grounded in sanity to begin with. Do you really think our current materialistic beliefs, and totalitarian education system which force feeds it's version of reality on the modern world, is sane? That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Quote: This sentence is walking into pyrrhonic skepticism. We can easily say that we cannot be certain of anything. In this case, we cannot even know that we do not even know that we don't know that we don't know anything. It's circular, boring, and sophomoric. It does not offer any solutions or practicality. An all too often scenario. I'm not sure who you were quoting but I would have to say in response to that, who the hell does that person think they are to deem what is objectively boring and sophomoric? The system, through it's so-called practical solutions, inescapably creates more problems. It's a redundant, vicious, never-ending, and self-deprecating loop of-- Problem, Reaction, Solution. Mostly to problems that the-powers-that-be accidentally and arbitrarily created as they went along. Why can't people accept life for what it is, through the flawed lenses of our imperfect perceptions? There will always be problems, because problems exist inborn in us. Considering I'm as quixotic as they come, I find what the mainstream call practicality to be quite impractical. Practicality is in the eye of the beholder, is it not? Why are we continually forced to settle for second best, step on these pre-paved escalators through life in order to reach these consumeristic and parasitic plateaus and lifestyles decided by equally deluded individuals, or constantly worry about these meaningless monetary digits in order to put food on our plates? Do those finite luxuries really provide one with self understanding and relief, in the end? Hardly. It's just another form of escapism. If every sense of choice and freedom are predetermined and laid out for you, what scraps are left that can be called freedom without seeming to border on society's edge of insanity? Perhaps, that's why people run with their delusions. There is something empowering there that society stifles from childhood... the imagination. Do you honestly believe there is no better system for us to create or follow? In the public eye when, 'good citizen', equates to, 'avid and blind follower of the system', that's where I adamantly and vehemently disagree. Naturally, questioning the system would cause fear in those that pathologically believe in it, because it forces a good look into the cracks of their blind servitude and their once 'flawless' beliefs. Practical subservient left-brained follower of a flawed system? Is that the best you can hope to achieve in life? I would hope not. I'm proud to say I'm crazy in my own right.

[LucidFlanders]

If everyone on the planet, save one, believed something, but the one other did not, would he be "insane" or "illogical"? He will be "illogical" because it's not his/her view of whatever belief it is.

[Xaqaria]

.. What exactly is it that you believe the majority is trying to escape from? How are you so sure that everyone who follows the norm is doing it blindly? Is it not possible that so many people behave the same way because they honestly hold similar beliefs without fear of judgment? Is it not possible that you are simply justifying your divergent beliefs by saying that everyone else is just afraid to believe as you do? One thing you must remember is we all think that we are right. In that respect, you are no different from the rest of us

[Cyclic13]

From the grand perspective of things, it's quite simple: The majority are trying to escape acceptance and realization of the different facets of themselves. Like dream characters continually denying they are all equally inter-connected subconscious parts of the dream when you go lucid and attempt to inform them. At least, I'm being forthright in the fact that by choosing this finite shell to occupy my blip in infinity, I too, am escaping in some sense of the word. However, I'm not justifying anything. I just think every individual is just as perverse as the next person. Some are just better at concealing it, or creating the many barriers of social acceptance into fooling themselves into thinking they aren't. I don't think I'm 'right'. I think the terms, 'right' and 'wrong', like any word, are inert ideas without meaning until there is a group of sanctimonious individuals banding together to give it one-- one more way of creating barriers of separation between individuals, and feed the ego. An easy way to kill two birds with one stone-- avoid reflection into yourself and pass judgement onto others in order to create a moral hierarchy, and at the same time stave off self-doubt and boost the ego. On a similar note, It's funny you'd mention the term 'Divergent'. That's the title of one of the first songs I made using a relevant sample from one of my favorite movies. Check it out. Enjoy!

[Xaqaria]

That doesn't really answer my question. you say that we are all escaping acceptance of the fact that we are " ...dream characters [that] are all equally inter-connected subconscious parts of the dream..." but the majority does not believe this to be true, and it is by no means a self evident capital T Truth that we are all denying. The majority does not even consider what you claim we are trying to escape from as reality, and so are not actually trying to escape from anything. This is like saying that since you don't celebrate Christmas (hypothetically), you are trying to escape from realizing and accepting the existence of Santa Claus. You simply believing in the singularity of all existence does not make it the truth and those that do not believe in that possibility are not purposely avoiding acceptance of your beliefs.

[tommo]

Couldn't be f'd reading these posts coz I need to LD soon. But yes, crazy is majority rules. I read an article in Skeptic magazine I think it was and it highlighted some of the most outrageous things about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV). I can't remember exact examples the writer gave but it was 'disorders' to the equivalent of not liking bananas. And according to DSM IV 41% of the worlds population has a mental disorder. So technically if they keep adding more and it becomes 51%, then the other 49% percent will be 'crazy'. Take germs for example. In the 18th century there was no such thing! Nobody'd ever imagined such a thing -- no sane person anyway. Along comes this doctor...Semmelweiss, I think. He tries to convince people... other doctors mostly...that there are these teeny tiny invisible "bad things" called germs that get into your body and make you...sick! He's trying to get doctors to wash their hands. What is this guy...crazy? Teeny tiny invisible whaddayou call 'em?..."germs"! Watch the movie 12 Monkeys, or if you cbf the main scene which outlines this is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB0dvgCZ4Q0

[O'nus]

You will notice that SolSkye is making perfect use of the unfalsifiable denial=true argument. You can still disagree with what he is saying and it still proves him right. There is no sense in arguing it because denying it also shows his argument to be true. However, the fact that he has constructed it as such, proves it is false. ~

[Cyclic13]

That doesn't really answer my question. you say that we are all escaping acceptance of the fact that we are " ...dream characters [that] are all equally inter-connected subconscious parts of the dream..." but the majority does not believe this to be true, and it is by no means a self evident capital T Truth that we are all denying. The majority does not even consider what you claim we are trying to escape from as reality, and so are not actually trying to escape from anything. This is like saying that since you don't celebrate Christmas (hypothetically), you are trying to escape from realizing and accepting the existence of Santa Claus. You simply believing in the singularity of all existence does not make it the truth and those that do not believe in that possibility are not purposely avoiding acceptance of your beliefs. It's not quite like saying Santa Claus exists because any rational mind would know, he doesn't. However, if you were to systematically go back through the lineage of this universe you could trace an invisible line back between everyone and everything inter-connecting them. Why would you assume because you can't actively and readily perceive that connection now that it still isn't there beneath the surface waiting to be perceived if contemplated or meditated on enough? When all signs in the known universe point to yes, what else is there except outright denial? Watch the movie 12 Monkeys, or if you cbf the main scene which outlines this is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB0dvgCZ4Q0 Damn you just gave a big hint to where that sample in my song was from. You will notice that SolSkye is making perfect use of the unfalsifiable denial=true argument. You can still disagree with what he is saying and it still proves him right. There is no sense in arguing it because denying it also shows his argument to be true. However, the fact that he has constructed it as such, proves it is false. ~ One can't possibly construct what was already there.

[O'nus]

One can't possibly construct what was already there. QED; unfalsifiable. ~

[Xaqaria]

It's not quite like saying Santa Claus exists because any rational mind would know, he doesn't. However, if you were to systematically go back through the lineage of this universe you could trace an invisible line back between everyone and everything inter-connecting them. Why would you assume because you can't actively and readily perceive that connection now that it still isn't there beneath the surface waiting to be perceived if contemplated or meditated on enough? When all signs in the known universe point to yes, what else is there except outright denial. Saint Nicholas was a Bishop of Myra during the third century. He is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, children, and students in Greece, Belgium, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russia, the Republic of Macedonia, Slovakia, Serbia and Montenegro and he most definitely exists both in a physical sense and in a metaphysical sense in the same way that politics, philosophy, love, hate, greed, and altruism exist. Now that I've shown how your sense of the rational mind is actually completely contrary to what the rest of us see as reality, it should be easier for you to understand why perhaps your views on the subject are merely dismissed by the general public and not 'feared'.

[Cyclic13]

Ok, I walked right into that one. I meant it means he clearly doesn't exist as we portray him as this timeless image that delivers gifts every year. The universe and the ties that bind, however, is still up in the air. And for those that think long and hard enough about it, it's not up in the air or on the ground anymore.

[GestaltAlteration]

Taking one example, there are literally billions of religious people in the world who consider themselves sane, whereas I find it incomprehensive as to how people can beleive such things. lol. Hey man if you know the answers I'm happy for you.

[tommo]

Damn you just gave a big hint to where that sample in my song was from. HAHA, I just read this thread and as soon as I saw divergent I instantly thought of the same movie as you lol! Then I see you made a song from that. I will listen to it tomorrow coz' I don't have my headphones here right now. On topic: so really either we are all sane or all insane; unless someone is truely insane like kept in a madhouse or something. Who's to say these people are insane? Exactly what we are discussing is what makes people insane or sane. I'm sure we all agree it is society that defines it, or psychologists or whomever. But I'm not sure if we agree on this, I'm tired now and couldn't understand a lot of what was being said. SolSkye I didn't know you were schizophrenic, I might just do what you said and go back and read a few of your earlier posts and read that thread you posted the comment in that you quoted here, got a link to it? I'll have to look tomorrow, kinda tired. By saying that you've improved heaps have you been on medication or something? or psychologist/iatrist? Peace all, Sweet LD's

[Cyclic13]

I'm not a schizophrenic, at least I hope I'm not. I'm what you would call eccentric.

[tommo]

Oh woops it was O'nus that said that lol

[O'nus]

Oh woops it was O'nus that said that lol Just look in "Dream View Favorites" for "Hi, I'm new please read". It was my first post. ~