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    1. #1
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      "What The Bleep Do We Know?"

      After being introduced to a clip of this movie in another thread, I watched almost the whole thing 10 minutes at a time.

      Today I read some criticisms of the film. I noticed one subject left untouched. That is effecting random number generators with a mental intention.

      Does this mean that it is a phenomina that can't be explained?

      I rember when I would listen to my favorite band on a cd player set to shuffle. I knew all of the songs on the album and would think of a song I wanted to hear while the player was selecting. I never kept statistical data of how many times the song I was thinking of started playing, but I know I was amazed.

      So, I guess consciousness can effect matter.

    2. #2
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stupified View Post
      So, I guess consciousness can effect matter.

      Sorry, where does your justification for this come from other than "a few times i thought of a song before it came on my mp3 player".

      Conduct a controlled experiment; or else find one.

    3. #3
      Worst title ever Grod's Avatar
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      I concur.

      That's no proof at all.

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      One of the experiments they talk about in the film is people being asked to effect a random number generator. When they press the button they have an intention of creating more 0s or 1s. It seems like critics pick apart every aspect of the film but they don't talk about this one. Maybe I didn't read enough reviews, I bet someone could argue the merits of the experiment.

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      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Carôusoul View Post
      Sorry, where does your justification for this come from other than "a few times i thought of a song before it came on my mp3 player".

      Conduct a controlled experiment; or else find one.

      All you do is dispose members material. As if you are attempting to discredit any or all information.
      Why don't you put your efforts into thinking about some of the material as opposed to such a cynical disposition?

      BTW - great documentary Stupified! I have watched it several times and have gotten something new each time.
      Last edited by Howie; 12-12-2007 at 03:10 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      All you do is dispose members material. As if you are attempting to discredit any or all information.
      Why don't you put your efforts into thinking about some of the material as opposed to such a cynical disposition?

      Showing where documentation and justification is needed is not disposing or cynical.

      I have nowhere said I don't believe it, or even made a negative impression.


      I am right in saying a more detailed experiment is needed rather than just the word that it works. This is how we learn new things about the world; and avoid superstition.

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      Legend Jeff777's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stupified View Post
      After being introduced to a clip of this movie in another thread, I watched almost the whole thing 10 minutes at a time.

      Today I read some criticisms of the film. I noticed one subject left untouched. That is effecting random number generators with a mental intention.

      Does this mean that it is a phenomina that can't be explained?

      I rember when I would listen to my favorite band on a cd player set to shuffle. I knew all of the songs on the album and would think of a song I wanted to hear while the player was selecting. I never kept statistical data of how many times the song I was thinking of started playing, but I know I was amazed.

      So, I guess consciousness can effect matter.
      You're right, continue on your path of self/all-realization.
      Things are not as they seem

    8. #8
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      I just typed "intention and random number generators" into a google search and the first site was a princeton.edu study that is trying to understand the results they are getting from thier experiments.

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      I'll check that out then stupefied.

      I'm not trying to be a negative influence.. just looking for documentation.. now it's provided. Am a happy cat.

    10. #10
      Truth Seeker <span class='glow_9400D3'>LucidDreamGod</span>'s Avatar
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      I'm seen the film, and read alot of the criticisms on it, over all I think most of the things on it were just way out there ideas, it's been along time since I have seen it, and I have heard of reports about mental will on random number, and it has no real evident results, it's like the 11:11 thing, ever since I thought about that I seem to notice the time a whole lot more, the humen mind is trained to notice and take in things at high conscious levels when something they have been looking for is seen.

      Though don't get me wrong, I'd like to know more about the evidence.
      Last edited by LucidDreamGod; 12-12-2007 at 03:06 AM.



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    11. #11
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      It's increasingly difficult to find convincing figures.. if any..

      Just methods of testing.. in multitude and references to "significant results".

    12. #12
      Legend Jeff777's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stupified View Post
      After being introduced to a clip of this movie in another thread, I watched almost the whole thing 10 minutes at a time.

      Today I read some criticisms of the film. I noticed one subject left untouched. That is effecting random number generators with a mental intention.

      Does this mean that it is a phenomina that can't be explained?

      I rember when I would listen to my favorite band on a cd player set to shuffle. I knew all of the songs on the album and would think of a song I wanted to hear while the player was selecting. I never kept statistical data of how many times the song I was thinking of started playing, but I know I was amazed.

      So, I guess consciousness can effect matter.



      (The photos below were taken by a zen buddhist monk, they exhibit before and after high def shots of water molecules, not snowflakes, jewelry or glass carvings...water molecules. The captions below the pictures show what thoughts/feelings the monk was projecting at the current time and the effect they had on the water molecule.)

      Things are not as they seem

    13. #13
      Your cat ate my baby Pyrofan1's Avatar
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      The photos below were taken by a zen buddhist monk, they exhibit before and after high def shots of water molecules, not snowflakes, jewelry or glass carvings...water molecules. The captions below the pictures show what thoughts/feelings the monk was projecting at the current time and the effect they had on the water molecule
      [citation needed]

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stupified View Post
      So, I guess consciousness can effect matter.
      Consciousness, as far as we know, IS matter. Of course it affects other matter. You want conclusive proof? Move your arm. There we go

      Quote Originally Posted by Jeff777 View Post
      [CENTER]
      (The photos below were taken by a zen buddhist monk, they exhibit before and after high def shots of water molecules, not snowflakes, jewelry or glass carvings...water molecules. The captions below the pictures show what thoughts/feelings the monk was projecting at the current time and the effect they had on the water molecule.)
      I admittedly have no sources, but I've read more than a few articles on research which failed to replicate these results. This is a notoriously unreproducible experiment.

      *edit* Oh, and those are definitely not "water molecules" (singular). They're obviously ice crystals, also known as 'snow flakes'.

    15. #15
      Dreaming up music skysaw's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jeff777 View Post
      (The photos below were taken by a zen buddhist monk, they exhibit before and after high def shots of water molecules, not snowflakes, jewelry or glass carvings...water molecules. The captions below the pictures show what thoughts/feelings the monk was projecting at the current time and the effect they had on the water molecule.)
      The photos were taken by author Masaru Emoto, not a "zen buddhist monk." They are offered as commercial art, and as casual experiment. They in no way were controlled experiments. The photos are indeed of ice crystals, as you can clearly read from Emoto's own materials. He "projected his thoughts" towards the water, then froze it.

      Here's some information on the author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoto
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    16. #16
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/

      This is a link to thousands of experiments that princeton did on the subject of altering the outputs of random number generators with thought.

      The problem with these experiments is not that we have no idea how they work, but that it is extremely difficult to isolate all of the variables involved when attempting to do something as vague as effect the world with your thoughts. Its an area of study that is still in its infant stages, but there is a lot of promising data that suggests it is indeed possible.

      One of the most interesting questions that these types of experiments brings up is, is science as rational and straight forward as we thought now that the possibility for the experimenter to effect the outcome with their ideas and beliefs has been discovered?

      Edit: Now that PEAR has run its course, I guess they have moved on to form the International Conscious Research Laboratories
      Last edited by Xaqaria; 12-13-2007 at 06:12 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      The problem with these experiments is not that we have no idea how they work, but that it is extremely difficult to isolate all of the variables involved when attempting to do something as vague as effect the world with your thoughts. Its an area of study that is still in its infant stages, but there is a lot of promising data that suggests it is indeed possible.
      The main question that bothers me with this stuff is the causality. Even if we suppose that human consciousness is capable of affecting matter directly, without any sort of contact, there needs to be some translation of intent. How does the number generator know what you mean by 'zeroes' and 'ones'? The computer doesn't have zeroes and ones, it has gates that are either conductive or not conductive. The concept of 'zero' is very loosely connected with the concept of 'closed gate', physically speaking. The two are only linked closely in the human brain.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      One of the most interesting questions that these types of experiments brings up is, is science as rational and straight forward as we thought now that the possibility for the experimenter to effect the outcome with their ideas and beliefs has been discovered?
      Maybe we can invent a process wherein the experimenters are not aware of which subject they are administering treatment to during the course of the experiment - we could call it 'blinding' or something

      This sort of prejudice has long been known, and any barely-detectable effects that our consciousness supposedly has on the matter involved in the experiment are undoubtedly overshadowed by our biased interpretations and actions - blinding should cover both already, though.

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      Quote Originally Posted by thegnome54 View Post
      Consciousness, as far as we know, IS matter. Of course it affects other matter. You want conclusive proof? Move your arm. There we go
      Oh gosh... you're making me giddy now.
      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ClouD View Post
      Oh gosh... you're making me giddy now.
      Erection time.

    20. #20
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by thegnome54 View Post
      The main question that bothers me with this stuff is the causality. Even if we suppose that human consciousness is capable of affecting matter directly, without any sort of contact, there needs to be some translation of intent. How does the number generator know what you mean by 'zeroes' and 'ones'? The computer doesn't have zeroes and ones, it has gates that are either conductive or not conductive. The concept of 'zero' is very loosely connected with the concept of 'closed gate', physically speaking. The two are only linked closely in the human brain.



      Maybe we can invent a process wherein the experimenters are not aware of which subject they are administering treatment to during the course of the experiment - we could call it 'blinding' or something

      This sort of prejudice has long been known, and any barely-detectable effects that our consciousness supposedly has on the matter involved in the experiment are undoubtedly overshadowed by our biased interpretations and actions - blinding should cover both already, though.
      Did you read about any of the experiments that they have done? I ask because it seems as though you haven't. Most of the experiments were done with the controller sitting in their home hundreds or thousands of miles away from the actual equipment. I think this is about as blind as it can get.
      Last edited by Xaqaria; 12-14-2007 at 10:10 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      Did you read about any of the experiments that they have done? I ask because it seems as though you haven't. Most of the experiments were done with the controller sitting in their home hundreds or thousands of miles away from the actual equipment. I think this is about as blind as it can get.
      No, I was referring to this:

      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      One of the most interesting questions that these types of experiments brings up is, is science as rational and straight forward as we thought now that the possibility for the experimenter to effect the outcome with their ideas and beliefs has been discovered?
      I wasn't talking about their experiments, I was talking about all experiments in general and how they would (not) be affected by consciousness affecting physical objects without physical contact.

      But anyways, these experiments aren't strictly blinded:
      In these studies human operators attempt to bias the output of a variety of mechanical, electronic, optical, acoustical, and fluid devices to conform to pre-stated intentions, without recourse to any known physical influences.
      If the person assessing the data knows what they are looking for, there is a risk of bias entering the results - perhaps a non-statistically-significant shift towards the stated intention of the subject could be interpreted as significant by someone who is aware of the subject's intentions, for example.

    22. #22
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by thegnome54 View Post
      If the person assessing the data knows what they are looking for, there is a risk of bias entering the results - perhaps a non-statistically-significant shift towards the stated intention of the subject could be interpreted as significant by someone who is aware of the subject's intentions, for example.
      Like I said, read some of their reports and look at some of their data.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      Like I said, read some of their reports and look at some of their data.
      There is no way to tell if a data set is skewed just by looking at it.

      I'm just pointing out that their experimental design is inherently flawed.

    24. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by thegnome54 View Post
      There is no way to tell if a data set is skewed just by looking at it.
      Yes there is.



      Oh look everyone! What The Bleep Do We Know?

      Haha; just had to do that.

    25. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Yes there is.
      No, there really isn't

      How would you go about doing this?

      It is impossible to tell the difference between a truly positive result and a falsely positive result generated by bias inherent in the evaluation of the experimental results.

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