Belief & Willpower

This can be a very deep one here...

This post is about 'What is willpower and determination' and how does that relate to the whole conscious/subconscious concept.
And in addition, what does that mean in terms of dreaming, lucid dreaming, hypnosis, habits, flaws, motivation and nightmares

So yes.. this is quite broad, and is going to get long. Its going to be a pain to read. So pick a moment when you have a bit of time. And then mull it over ;)

To start out with, please read this link. Its long, but important that you do. Its what started this all in my mind...
http://www.bcx.net/hypnosis/mythwill.htm

Its fairly enlightening, but I'm not sold on all 100% of the article. Still considering it from all sides myself ;)

To summarise what I think about this though.. I believe that your subconscious has dominance, but that both need agreement in anything you do. In the event that there is a complete 100% difference of opinion, then your subconscious will win the battle.

However... by using eg. hypnosis or self hypnosis... you *can* reason and alter your subconscious inhibitions.

hypnosis
By being hypnotised in the conventional sense, for example, you are effectively removing your conscious mind from the equation. This allows the person doing hypnosis to question and probe the subconscious.

dreams?
In terms of 'normal' dreams, we all know it is the realm of the subconscious. The subconscious is 'playing' without interference. Thus by nature the conscious is usually removed from the equation. Sound similar to hypnosis yet? The only difference is the lack of third party...

self-hypnosis?
Hehe..starting to get interesting now... With self hypnosis, you have quietened your conscious inhibitions, but are still awake ! ??!
You are able to speak to your subconscious inhibitions without going through the usual conscious ones... Amazing actually...

lucid dreams?
This is where it gets interesting. You are introducing your conscious mind to the playground of your subconscious mind, but not entirely to the equation ?!? Why? Because part of your logical conscious mind is still asleep....
You are now able to alter your fears, inhibitions and habits - by interacting with those dreams. Instant self-hypnotic 3D therapy, with entertainment to boot...

I'm still considering all this, but Im not far from the truth IMO

Please comment.. I beg!

*Swearword omitted*... I just realised something... a little theory occurred to me.. :shock: :idea:

Its not 'part of your subconscious' that enters your lucid dreams... its a layer of awareness all of its own.... call it super conscious if you want...

This is the layer ABOVE the conscious, that is aware of all thoughts....
What tibetan monks strive all their lives to develop in their pretty zen gardens ! :D

After all.. think about this... why would there be 2 'hardcoded' levels of consciousness?
We're layered - thats how our brain was created in any case...
That third layer is the least developed, but the most high-minded in the chain...

Sheesh... interesting subject, think you not?...

Sorry to do this (triple post)... but I just had another thought...
What about the problem of 'what is the difference between animals and humans'?

How about - they find it much harder to develop that high up in their chain/layers of consciousness.
Thus their super conscious is much more primitive - due to physical brain makeup perhaps?

They are simply not aware of their conscious thoughts at the same relative 'ease' that we do.

Thoughts?

Wow dude....you never cease to blow me away. I read all your posts, but I'm gonna have to go get a coffee before I attempt that "Will Power" essay.

That's one hell of a mind you got on your shoulders man! ;)

I'm sitting here and just blinking after reading all that, and yawning a little.

(Perhaps I should stop reading things at 1 in the morning.)

the Edit button is your friend...

Also, sorry but... what are you asking??

First off that person who wrote that site is a moron. I looked up willpower, first try - The strength of will to carry out one's decisions, wishes, or plans. Short and clear, I don't know what his half page rant about how its not in a dictionary and then when you find one its really confusing was about. When he learns to look up words in a dictionary I might go back and read his post.

I skimmed over the rest of it and it was just more stuff showing he had no idea what he was talking about.

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Originally posted by Placebo
*Swearword omitted*... I just realised something... a little theory occurred to me.. *:shock: *:idea: *

Its not 'part of your subconscious' that enters your lucid dreams... its a layer of awareness all of its own.... call it super conscious if you want...

This is the layer ABOVE the conscious, that is aware of all thoughts....
What tibetan monks strive all their lives to develop in their pretty zen gardens ! :D

After all.. think about this... why would there be 2 'hardcoded' levels of consciousness?
We're layered - thats how our brain was created in any case...
That third layer is the least developed, but the most high-minded in the chain...

Sheesh... *interesting subject, think you not?...

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That does make a lot of sense!

I've experienced it in 2 separate but close things: trips and LDs

how can your mind be crystal clear, yet totally fuckked up during a drug

trip? Only now I'm starting to question it.

Same with LDs. Superconsciousness is active...


I dont have enough time now and will comment more later :D

I just finished reading the "subconscious" thread...and the essay...and this thread.

It's weird that not until Placebo's "layers" post did anyone question the categories of "conscious" and "subconscious," which are after all just ideas invented by a guy named Sigmund about 100 years ago. They're useful for thinking about some things, not that useful for others. I agree they're not at all "hardcoded." My main problem with that dichotomy is that it puts too much emphasis on conscious thought, which is only one of many things you're doing at any given time, and ghettoizes the majority of mental activity in the "subconscious" category, supporting the illusion that your ego is you and everything else is not.

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Originally posted by Placebo
Its not 'part of your subconscious' that enters your lucid dreams... its a layer of awareness all of its own.... call it super conscious if you want...

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Are you saying that this superconscious creates the obstacles or clues in the dream? I used to think of the superconcious as a kind of organizing principle, keeping my subconscious and conscious in line. It was also tied up with reincarnation--as a kid I thought of "me" as the consciousness between lives, digesting information from the past life and choosing the next. When I thought of the superconscious later on, it was partly a way of referring to the same thing in psychologese.

Now, I kind of think of everthing as being equally me and not-me...but in dreams especially, I definitely assume anything that happens, I'm doing it. When I look back on LDs, I treat the temptations and distractions that pop up as useful information about how my mind is working.

I think all of this was on topic, if a little disjointed :roll:

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Originally posted by wasup+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wasup)</div>

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Also, sorry but... what are you asking??[/b]

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Nothing actually. Its simply a collection of thoughts with direction. Thought I would share it and see if anyone has anything to add to it. I would appreciate that a lot in fact.

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Originally posted by Alric+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric)</div>

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First off that person who wrote that site is a moron[/b]

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Perhaps. He seemed a few sticks short of a beating... but if you overlook his possibly lacking research, he has an interesting point of view.
I don't believe he's entirely right, but he did provoke a few thoughts from me.

<!--QuoteBegin-Ev@
That does make a lot of sense! . .. . I dont have enough time now and will comment more later

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Thanks Ev... I look forward to it ;)

<!--QuoteBegin-Taosaur
It's weird that not until Placebo's \"layers\" post did anyone question the categories of \"conscious\" and \"subconscious

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In all honesty, I wasn't sure if this was the case when I posted this thread. I'm glad to have helped if thats what I have done.
However isnt the concept of a 'higher consciousness' a similar thing?
This has affected me quite deeply actually...

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Originally posted by Taosaur+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Taosaur)</div>

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Are you saying that this superconscious creates the obstacles or clues in the dream[/b]

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I believe its the subconscious that causes the dream, but the superconscious (although this term might cause confusion) that 'drives' the lucidity. For example.. when in hypnosis, the conscious inhibitions are replaced by the person performing the hypnosis.
Like I said.. the term may be confusing. Lets perhaps refer to it as 'higher layer of awareness' or 'higher layer of consciousness'

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Originally posted by Taosaur@
I treat the temptations and distractions that pop up as useful information about how my mind is working. *

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Interesting technique - thanks for that ;)]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ophelia
Wow dude....you never cease to blow me away.

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I never got to blow you in the first place :D hehe

Hey man, Placebo, you raise some really good points. You've really thought about this, and it's always good to see someone who has a credible opinion :D

Ive talked to you about this elsewhere, just thought I should say this here anyway....

Since I am not really a lucid dreamer, I propose to myself that I will practice self-hypnosis, which is under lucid dreaming, to gain more awareness and communication with my subconscious.

Enlightenment... does this mean the practice of using the super-conscious?

Thanks Lewis ;)

Enlightenment.. hmm.. quite a topic.
Perhaps it is simply a collection of insights gained - the ultimate being somewhere in the clouds - eclipsing anything we know thus far.

In addition, those insights are far easier to be gained through contemplation and awareness of oneself and one's thoughts?

I disagree with the author and his article. Arrogance and "I know it all

attitude". This is a "science to it's worst",

such kind of "pseudo science" deserves the beating :D

(I would not go deep into details, as I may start ranting :) )

Quote:

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Originally posted by Placebo
Its not 'part of your subconscious' that enters your lucid dreams... its a layer of awareness all of its own.... call it super conscious if you want...

This is the layer ABOVE the conscious, that is aware of all thoughts....

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The concept of "superconsciousness" is fascinating. It really explains a lot

of things. "superconsciousness" may be the core of your thinking mind.

It is you without the junk of thoughts/ideas you accumulated through life.

Also, it may be your "soul" or whatever.


Thinking about it, why this thing is so independent, why it remains clear

when the rest of your mind/memory is screwed? An example are a

drug "trips". While everything is leaving you (memories/knowledge, etc),

this part stays and remains crystal clear, analyzing your state, trying to

make sense of visions and so on?

Thanks for all the posts so far... okay, so we're agreed that the author was a prick :D
However I give him credit for sparking my interest in the subject, albeit with dodgy information.

And yeah... I agree.. the concept of how our conscious layers work, with the higher level of 'super consciousness'... very intriguing !