In your world view, what constitutes the 'Real'?
Are ideas real?
Are dreams real?
Are physical objects real?
Where does this 'Reality' exist?
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In your world view, what constitutes the 'Real'?
Are ideas real?
Are dreams real?
Are physical objects real?
Where does this 'Reality' exist?
All of it is reality, one layer or another, one aspect or anotherQuote:
Originally Posted by syzygy
Ideas register on the mind....whos mind?
Dreams register on the mind......whos mind?
Physical objects register on the mind......whos mind?
Reality registers on the mind....again, whos mind?
My mind......who is this me behind the my?
Your mind......who is this you behind the your?
Both relate back to an "I"
Each is an "I", each must ask the questions:
Who am I ?
What am I?
Am I this witness? or that which is being witnessed?
Neither seems likely
Both arise on the mind
The mind draws them together into the oneness of the doing
The witnessing itself
Without the subject or the object to define the doing, what is this?
Undefined infinite potential
Such is that I am
Such is reality
It doesn't matter inside the gates of Eden.
The word "real" is used to communicate a lot of ideas in a lot of different conceptual contexts. Everything exists in some context, whether it's just an idea or an actual object so in some sense everything is real. "Real" is usually used to distinguish between a given object and some ideal object or class of objects. For example, there is a real self-portrait of Vincent van Gogh in a museum in Amsterdam. It was painted by van Gogh himself, it actually exists in space and time, it is actually a self-portrait, etc... As opposed print of the original, a copy by another artist, or the mental image of the painting. These other things exist, but they aren't real van Gogh self-portraits.
What's real is what the brain shows us what is real, is everyone seeing the same real? who knows. I can say "today i went to work" and i see you respond to me saying "today i went to work", yet you see me say "i had soup for lunch", and i see you responding to me saying "i had soup for lunch".
Who knows, everyone see's reality differently and they say nobody see's the same thing as everyone else.
I ask these questions because I feel that we live in a time where many people are (for the most part unknowingly) affected by a trend in thought that forces us to separate the world into 'reality' or 'illusion', 'history' or 'myth'. This is the consent to the divorce between 'thought' and 'being' - an isolation of the consciousness and its object, which leads to what can be called the 'agnostic reflex'. By requiring empirical, sensory evidence for something to be deemed 'real' or 'existent', we inevitably reduce all spiritual, subtle phenomena to the title of 'illusory' or 'non-existent'. Everything created by our Imagination then becomes 'imaginary' in the sense that it is opposed to 'real', physical objects.
Most people take for granted that this is how people have always thought - a common modern misconception. This decline in the Imagination can be traced back to when Averroism rejected Avicennian cosmology, and with it the intermediary angelic world that once bridged what is now the void separating the world of Intelligence with the world of the senses. This angelic realm, the world of the Soul, is the Imagination in its pure state. It is the place where the pure Intellect is clothed in an Image and where the information from the physical senses is 'taken back to its source'. The active Imagination is what is able to give meaning to our dreams and visions, and perceive the hidden meaning of symbols - both in the dream state and the waking state.
Without this world of the Soul, our imaginative function becomes unbalanced and devalued. Is it any surprise then that our modern culture is obsessed with the imaginary? We constantly surround ourselves with magazines, movies, television, internet... But we do not hold the Image to its rightful place as a symbolic function leading to an internal meaning, but rather degrade the image to level of sensory perception. The more we do this, the more we cut ourselves off from this internal world, and I only see this trend growing.
This problem cannot be solved by blindly putting faith in a dogmatic religion, nor can it be solved by reason and logic, as the scientific world thinks all problems can be solved by. This world must be experienced by one's self, because it is the Self imagined for itself. We are denying ourselves of our true Reality, and the more we do this the farther we get from it.
Like traveling into a maze and forgetting your way back to the starting point, only worse, one does not even recall starting nor its point.Quote:
Originally Posted by syzygy
If the trend continues, what in your view, will be required to set things on an even keel again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by syzygy
What problem? Maybe if we move ever deeper into absurdity, we'll all wise up at once. Maybe clinging to caricatures of experience is symptomatic of living in a wave of compounding novelty, ever-denser connectivity making dogma increasingly untenable, even among the dogmatic. Maybe reality is pregnant. Maybe every truth is equally accessible here and now and nothing's happening at all.
You know, it's fun to talk this way, but when someone's view is really different, say fundamentalist-authoritarian or adhering to a narrow materialist notion of reason, it's pure babel. I just ran through a long thread on more or less this subject, and I was agape at the sheer disconnect--I might as well have been speaking coded Navajo.
Where you are now is reality.
If you are awake then you are in reality and the dreaming world is a dream.
If you are dreaming then you are in reality and the waking world is a dream.
Everything that I experience is reality to me. Everything that is percieved by me is.
Dreams, thoughts, vision, feel, audio, taste, emotions, etc.
Your thoughts are not reality to me, but they are real to you... unless there becomes a way for your thoughts, ideas, and dreams to be percieved by me firsthand. Then they would be reality.
The movie is a reality to me, but all of the behind the scenes stuff isn't until I hear about it. Then the memory of hearing of it is a reality, but it actually happening isn't, but still any unknown things aren't realities to me.
Now that I think about it though, I know that I don't know things that are realities because I learn things every day, so they become realities. This means that anything and everything is a limitless reality that is uncessant?
I don't know. So it is reality.
Everything that is 'now' is real, and 'now' is the peak of a wave on a flat sea of non-existence.
That means the whole sea is the peak, so everything is now.
So it goes. ;)
Real would be like seeing everything from a completely objective and perfectly flawless viewpoint. Since this is impossible, we as humans cannot experience true reality.
Actually, I would agree; as long as you have the right perspective; the 'peak' being whatever one is currently perceiving. I realize this is sort of a circular explanation, although I can offer no better substitute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephent91
Everything is real. It's a stupid stupid term.
More useful are "physical" "non-physical" "illusory" etc.
Knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by syzygy
Matter exists, because every living thing can perceive it. We all agree that there is such a thing as matter, no matter (pun) if you are a bacterium or a plant or a turtle or a human. When every living thing agrees on a point, it is the most truthful of truths.
Everything is real to a degree. The words you are reading right now are pixels. Formations of photons, which are forms of energy. Energy differs from matter, but evidence of its existence is omnipresent. Once artificial intellegence improves, computer programs will argue forms of energy as truth as well. Energy effects matter, so energy must exist, too.
Thought, until expressed through a transmittable means (language) remains real only to the thinker of said thought. Unlike matter and energy, thought is (currently) completely exclusive to the mind of an individual until expressed through matter or energy. Once mind reading technology comes into being, I bet thought will be considered apart of reality, too. At least to us humans.
Conclusion: reality is all that is shared.
Heh, I don't accept your arguments but I like your conclusion :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Abra
If you accept matter and energy then how is thought, which interpenetrates matter and energy (I would not presume to say one is "made of" the other), at least in the human brain, excluded? Is matter and energy only real if observed by two or more entities?Quote:
Originally Posted by Abra
Even taking thought in the abstract of ideas or memes, how many of your thoughts and ideas are truly unique to your own head? Thoughts don't arise independent of causes, or discontinuous with things and events. I would say they're as inextricably embedded in what's going on here as any physical aggregation.
For my purposes, yes. If reality is based upon a single individual, that person can manipulate reality however he/she perceives and interprets it. For reality to be applicable on a large scale, its definition must cover most organisms.Quote:
Is matter and energy only real if observed by two or more entities?
Thought is the hard part of the argument. Unlike matter and energy, thoughts are the least constant, the least measurable, and, until expressed, the most exclusive. Thought differs from being to being. Unlike matter and energy, there is (currently) no way to detect what another is thinking. My thought is reality only to myself, your thought is reality only to yourself. We cannot impose our thoughts on the reality of matter and energy until thought is transferred out of the brain and into the "shareable" realm of reality.
Thought is an individual reality, for now.
I agree that thoughts do not occur randomly. But the brain is complex. It's not as simple as cause and effect. We each interpret things differently, and it's virtually impossible to predict another person's interpretations due to the sheer number of possible outcomes. And so, thought remains an individual experience, separate from matter and energy.
reality is in your mind. it is what you perceive to be real. you make your own reality. it's individualized....aww, cool word drop right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by syzygy
Is it possible what i'm seeing right now as my reality is not reality all? like i can just snap outa whatever i'm in and still rmemember everything but DV does not exist, it was all a figment of my imagination. The people i know i don't know at all, they don't work where i work. As lucid as RL is this can be all a figment of my imagination? Doctors say you can live lifetimes in your head.