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    1. #51
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      I despise murder. That is because I am emotionally set up that way. However, what decides that murder is objectively "bad"? Is there some law of physics, mathematical equation, or laboratory demonstration you can use to prove the conclusiveness of the assertion? All you can ever prove is that we don't like it. That's it.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    2. #52
      Eltit Resu Motsuc Achievements:
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      True. And think about this: Even though we can prove something by using a complicated equation or something we can never be sure that this will still work in another part of the universe...
      What if the laws of physics we know don't apply 999.999.999.999 billion light years from here? (or in another dimension, whatever)

      We cannot be sure about anything. Socrates was right.
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    3. #53
      Xei
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      Descartes was the great doubter, wasn't he..?

      I disagree that we should think the laws of physics are any different anywhere else though. For one thing, there's no evidence that would make us think that. For another thing, as an example, there is a lot of evidence that Einstein was right when he said that the speed of light is constant no matter what your velocity, and that would mean it is constant wherever you are.

      I despise murder. That is because I am emotionally set up that way. However, what decides that murder is objectively "bad"? Is there some law of physics, mathematical equation, or laboratory demonstration you can use to prove the conclusiveness of the assertion? All you can ever prove is that we don't like it. That's it.
      I'm not talking in terms of emotion, or inherent revulsion at certain acts, or so forth.

      Don't think of it in terms of murder, think of it in terms of there being two options, one in which the conscious being does exist, one in which he doesn't. Which one would you chose?

      Because I am aware, I can tell that awareness is good, and therefore I know that more awareness, ie the first option, is the answer.

    4. #54
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      Ok I'll use an example to clarify what I mean.
      Let's say that there is a race of sentient bacteria that crawl over the ground.
      These bacteria have a theory, that the earth is infinite in size (it's so big so they can't even see that it is round and finite) and gravity is equal no matter where you are. If I'd tell them that if you fly high enough you'd reach a place where there is no matter, no gravity and no air...they would react the same way you do. But that's just a hypothesis. The uni(multi?)verse is so immense that we can never be sure, right?

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      I disagree that we should think the laws of physics are any different anywhere else though. For one thing, there's no evidence that would make us think that. For another thing, as an example, there is a lot of evidence that Einstein was right when he said that the speed of light is constant no matter what your velocity, and that would mean it is constant wherever you are.
      Current projects:
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    5. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Because I am aware, I can tell that awareness is good, and therefore I know that more awareness, ie the first option, is the answer.
      You're REALLY not getting this, are you?

      "GOOD" is subjective. GOOD is an opinion. You can't tell that awareness IS good you can tell that YOU THINK it's good.

      Get it?

    6. #56
      Xei
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      Um yes I 'get it', and in fact I spent most of the last page adressing that issue..?

      And to repeat what I said, I believe that all truly true truths are objective, hence if I believe something is true I believe it is universally true.

      You seem to have lost track of the argument because what you're saying makes no impact upon it. Okay, so 'good' and 'bad' are only ideas that have meaning to conscious beings. We as conscious beings agree that awareness is 'good'. Against huge odds, the universe is 'good'. Why is the universe 'good' instead of 'bad'? If good and bad only have meaning to conscious beings, then the universe itself must have been created with a conscious being which willed the 'good' to become reality. If the creator were not conscious, but a natural event with no contemplation of 'good' or 'bad', the vast likelihood is that reality would be 'bad'.

    7. #57
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Um yes I 'get it', and in fact I spent most of the last page adressing that issue..?

      And to repeat what I said, I believe that all truly true truths are objective, hence if I believe something is true I believe it is universally true.

      You seem to have lost track of the argument because what you're saying makes no impact upon it. Okay, so 'good' and 'bad' are only ideas that have meaning to conscious beings. We as conscious beings agree that awareness is 'good'. Against huge odds, the universe is 'good'. Why is the universe 'good' instead of 'bad'? If good and bad only have meaning to conscious beings, then the universe itself must have been created with a conscious being which willed the 'good' to become reality. If the creator were not conscious, but a natural event with no contemplation of 'good' or 'bad', the vast likelihood is that reality would be 'bad'.
      How is the universe "good"?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    8. #58
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      In the end, everyone's opinion is based in their subjective reality in an objective reality, that is still subjective. EVERY belief, thought, be it logic, etc. is how you percieve the Absolute reality. Your thoughts on whether conciousness is insignificant or significant, even this statement and the understanding of different realities are subjective. Does it matter?
      I stomp on your ideas.

    9. #59
      Xei
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      How is the universe "good"?
      Well that point follows directly from the context of the previous, good means what we believe is moral, and right.

    10. #60
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Well that point follows directly from the context of the previous, good means what we believe is moral, and right.
      You took a subjective view and treated it as an objective fact.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    11. #61
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      Morals are subjective; without humanity there would be no morals; we create them; it doesn't make them any less important, but they are entirely subjective to us.

    12. #62
      Xei
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      You took a subjective view and treated it as an objective fact.
      I was treating morals as subjective that time, but showing that it doesn't have any implications for the argument as a whole.

    13. #63
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      I was treating morals as subjective that time, but showing that it doesn't have any implications for the argument as a whole.
      I thought you were saying that it does have impliciations for the argument as a whole. You seemed to be saying that the existence of "good" (subjective) proves that consciousness must be significant and at the root of the objective universe.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    14. #64
      Below are Some Random Schmaven's Avatar
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      I believe that although there seems to be incredible odds against sentient life existing, there are too many stars with their own planets in the universe for sentient life to not exist. Although many planets are inhospitable to us, another form of life could adapt to those conditions and evolve. What we know about the universe is limited to our own observations, and we have only been on this planet for a small fraction of the time that universe has existed.

    15. #65
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      Fun fact:

      If you were to represent one year by a millimeter across a table, and attempted to represent the Age of the earth; if you started in New York City, in order to map out the age of the earth in its entirety, it would span all the way across the Country to Los Angeles.

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