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    1. #151
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      This kind of knowledge? "Now I know you are not reading anything I am saying"

      I don't know what you know, and how should I know this...

      Everything you say and do is a beautiful work of art, don't get me wrong.



      I'm pretty sure I've mentioned a lot more than simply my personal experiences, even if they are controversial and seem out-of-place. I cannot please everybody.
      So far you have said that rationality cannot describe what you are talking about and that it takes unreason to comprehend your universal truth and your knowledge. How can we understand what you are trying to convey to us when you also say that rationality and reason cannot speak of it?

      Is this not the very basis of the problem of subjective representation in language? Stop talking about this.. move on to topics that we can talk about.

      You might as well be saying nothing.

      Please see my post in Synchromysticism.

      ~

    2. #152
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      You might as well be saying nothing.
      ~
      I came to that conclusion too.
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    3. #153
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
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      Icecream = Happy

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    4. #154
      Member really's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      So far you have said that rationality cannot describe what you are talking about and that it takes unreason to comprehend your universal truth and your knowledge. How can we understand what you are trying to convey to us when you also say that rationality and reason cannot speak of it?
      So far I have said that spiritual truth is beyond rationalization, because it is beyond the intellect and its conceptualizations relating to tangible form. Nowhere did I say "it takes unreason" - whatever that is. Since this is a spiritual path, what is involved is surrender of the traps of the ego, such as opinions and assumed knowledge. To reveal Truth, dismiss the false.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      Is this not the very basis of the problem of subjective representation in language? Stop talking about this.. move on to topics that we can talk about.

      You might as well be saying nothing.

      Please see my post in Synchromysticism.

      ~
      I'll stop writing about it when people stop asking me questions about it (or when I have had enough ).

    5. #155
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      So far I have said that spiritual truth is beyond rationalization, because it is beyond the intellect and its conceptualizations relating to tangible form. Nowhere did I say "it takes unreason" - whatever that is. Since this is a spiritual path, what is involved is surrender of the traps of the ego, such as opinions and assumed knowledge. To reveal Truth, dismiss the false.
      In order to come to this conclusion, you had to employ rationality.
      If you originated in rationality, then all sequential conclusions are derived from rationality.
      Thus, any conclusion must be rational.

      You say you have come to your conclusion through rationality, but that it is beyond rationality. In order to have made that statement, you had to employ rationality.

      Thus, you have contradicted yourself. You have no grounds, no evidence, nothing but subjective belief of what you are speaking of. There is no reason for anyone but yourself to ever believe anything you are saying because you employ no logic that can be mutually interactive.

      On the same page, this is the same logic that follows with the flying spaghetti monster.

      I'll stop writing about it when people stop asking me questions about it (or when I have had enough ).
      I agree with you on the idea of the intangible plane. I have stated this in another thread. I can imagine an intangible plane devoid of time, but I don't think we can ever grasp its true properties because we are subjects to linear time and tangibility.

      Whatever you think of this world as, you will never be able to properly represent even in your imagination because the properties it shares are radically different than even our own existance.

      ~

    6. #156
      Member really's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      In order to come to this conclusion, you had to employ rationality.
      If you originated in rationality, then all sequential conclusions are derived from rationality.
      Thus, any conclusion must be rational.

      You say you have come to your conclusion through rationality, but that it is beyond rationality. In order to have made that statement, you had to employ rationality.

      Thus, you have contradicted yourself. You have no grounds, no evidence, nothing but subjective belief of what you are speaking of.
      I disagree; I don't see the relevance at all of this. What I am speaking of is non-linear, and hence cannot be accuratly described via linear expression. While this itself is a rational understanding, there's no point arguing. Humans can be rational about everything, even the irrational - which is the relative subject. The subject is the point, not how I rationalize rationalizing it.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      There is no reason for anyone but yourself to ever believe anything you are saying because you employ no logic that can be mutually interactive.

      On the same page, this is the same logic that follows with the flying spaghetti monster.
      The logic that I follow is the science of the ego, and I go about reducing it by understading what it really is.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      I agree with you on the idea of the intangible plane. I have stated this in another thread. I can imagine an intangible plane devoid of time, but I don't think we can ever grasp its true properties because we are subjects to linear time and tangibility.

      Whatever you think of this world as, you will never be able to properly represent even in your imagination because the properties it shares are radically different than even our own existance.

      ~
      There, you have identified a defect, the defect of limited perception; a defect through the ego.

    7. #157
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      I disagree; I don't see the relevance at all of this. What I am speaking of is non-linear, and hence cannot be accuratly described via linear expression. While this itself is a rational understanding, there's no point arguing. Humans can be rational about everything, even the irrational - which is the relative subject. The subject is the point, not how I rationalize rationalizing it.

      The logic that I follow is the science of the ego, and I go about reducing it by understading what it really is.

      There, you have identified a defect, the defect of limited perception; a defect through the ego.
      And therefore.. the discussion cannot continue.

      ~

    8. #158
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      And therefore.. the discussion cannot continue.

      ~
      No problem, no need.

    9. #159
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Waite....................I want the last word!

    10. #160
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      The last word was "need", and you wanted it.

      But what if you did not want it, and needed nothing?

      What happiness could be expressed then!?

    11. #161
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      The last word was "need", and you wanted it.

      But what if you did not want it, and needed nothing?

      What happiness could be expressed then!?

      Tranquility?
      That would be a great place to be. Having the perspective to want nothing and be blessed to need nothing too.

      Curious;
      Quote Originally Posted by "really
      No problem, no need.
      No need as you agree or no need because you feel it would be fruitless?
      It does not seem that you and O'nus truly are in agreeance here. So I get and underlying affect that this statement was meant arbitrarily on your part.

      As I have had many discussions with O'nus his premises can't really be refuted. However based on many of those premises it seems that it would cast any conversation into a vat of why ask? Which I suppose in many cases it's valid on paper. As humans some concepts don't transfer over well from paper.

    12. #162
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      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      Tranquility?
      That would be a great place to be. Having the perspective to want nothing and be blessed to need nothing too.
      Yes, infinite peace, and there is no place it would not be.

      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      No need as you agree or no need because you feel it would be fruitless?
      It does not seem that you and O'nus truly are in agreeance here. So I get and underlying affect that this statement was meant arbitrarily on your part..
      Both, really. I've said enough, and I can never say enough. This is because I am literally referencing the irreducible, absolute...

      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      As I have had many discussions with O'nus his premises can't really be refuted. However based on many of those premises it seems that it would cast any conversation into a vat of why ask? Which I suppose in many cases it's valid on paper. As humans some concepts don't transfer over well from paper.
      Yes, "concepts" of undeniable spiritual truth are hard enough to comprehend on their own (with the intellect, however many). Curiosity I guess, in the end, it is always up to you, how you understand/direct/control your life.

    13. #163
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      really, you are the most selfish person I have met in the most unique way.

      You look at the subjectivity of knowledge and yet say then that no one else can know about it nor speak of it? However, you then continue on to discuss it and try to teach it..? How is that possible based on your grounds that it is an unteachable, undiscussable thing?

      Here's how it's going so far:
      + Subjective knowledge is the only thing certain
      + Subjective knowledge cannot be expressed
      + Subjective knowledge cannot be taught or discussed

      Yet you keep doing it. Why?

      ~

    14. #164
      Eltit Resu Motsuc Achievements:
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      Timothy Paradox's Avatar
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      Can we please stop this philosophical vendetta?
      The question was: "What does happy mean to you? Or how do you get that feeling".
      Current projects:
      -Acquire the Aurora
      -Test galatamine, huperzine and choline
      -Find smartwatch app for RC reminders at certain intervals
      -Ressurect my dream log here, and become more active

    15. #165
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
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      Feed = Happy?

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    16. #166
      wishful thinking
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      i think that to be happy, you have to have once been unhappy.
      to fully understand happiness, you'd have to know what it's like to know nothing about happiness at all.

      i agree with the statement that happiness is a choice. because it really is, you can always find something to be unhappy about.. whether it's the fact that there's a hole in your new favorite shirt, that your car got a flat tire, that your hair won't fix right today.. they're all meaningless little things that certain people let ruin their day. You can try as much as you want to perfect every little thing about the world, but there's always going to be something lurking in the shadows just waiting to upset you or throw you off balance. That's the way the world works. And you need to understand you can't change everything, no matter how hard you try, you could never get the sun to rise in the west and set in the east. There are impossibilities in this world. You just basically have to learn how to accept them in order to be happy. If you simply decide you just want to be a happy person, you can be.

      I also think it has to do with finding where you belong in the world. I was never completely content with my life up until this year.. i didn't know who i wanted to be or where i fit in or exactly what type of person i was.. but then i figured it out. The people you surround yourself with have a lot to do with your happiness. If you find those people you fit with, that make you happy, you'll be content. I promise.

    17. #167
      The Reluctant Minion Brainchild's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      What is happiness. I have seen some people that are always cheerful and great to be around. Sure everyone experiences some depression from time to time. But is true happiness a dream for some? Some having it and some don't?

      What is happiness in your eyes?
      What do you think the quality of life should be?

      If you are happy, what are you like. That is my question.
      Happiness is completely subjective which is why I suspect that those who seem perpetually content have only realized how to cope with their circumstances more effectively.
      Tat Tvam Asi.

      Check out my B.O.D.

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    18. #168
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox View Post
      Can we please stop this philosophical vendetta?
      The question was: "What does happy mean to you? Or how do you get that feeling".
      Thanks
      Quote Originally Posted by nicki
      i think that to be happy, you have to have once been unhappy.
      to fully understand happiness, you'd have to know what it's like to know nothing about happiness at all.
      I can certainly see that. In order to understand one perspective it would seem that you would have to know the other.

      There are just so many variables to this entire thing. Environment, family peers, beliefs, circumstance, history, will power, perspective, etc.

      Is happiness a choice? The happy people seem to think so.
      It's an easy one for them. A no brainer.

      Quote Originally Posted by Brainchild View Post
      Happiness is completely subjective which is why I suspect that those who seem perpetually content have only realized how to cope with their circumstances more effectively.
      That is why I like the choice of wording - "cope." Not choice, fate, but an response after the outcome. That could range anywhere in a spectrum from horrrible to blisss and everything inbetween, but our coping mechanisms is what would give us the end result.

    19. #169
      Member really's Avatar
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      Great thread, Howie!

      It is these gems that last well.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      really, you are the most selfish person I have met in the most unique way.

      You look at the subjectivity of knowledge and yet say then that no one else can know about it nor speak of it? However, you then continue on to discuss it and try to teach it..? How is that possible based on your grounds that it is an unteachable, undiscussable thing?

      Here's how it's going so far:
      + Subjective knowledge is the only thing certain
      + Subjective knowledge cannot be expressed
      + Subjective knowledge cannot be taught or discussed

      Yet you keep doing it. Why?

      ~
      Keep doing what?

      I express what I know, as anyone. I am passionate about this, as you are passionate about that.

      I'm just passing a hint that we are asleep, and we keep finding excuses to dream...

    20. #170
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Keep doing what?

      I express what I know, as anyone. I am passionate about this, as you are passionate about that.

      I'm just passing a hint that we are asleep, and we keep finding excuses to dream...
      Why bother expressing or discussing things you believe cannot be expressed or discussed about?

      Here's a demonstration:
      + I believe only I can discuss and know of X
      + I discuss X with Y
      + Y does not understand X

      See the problem? Why do you keep doing it?

      Hope you have fun being lonely.

      ~

    21. #171
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      It seems common to feel that things that cannot be experienced first hand, that it cannot be discussed.
      It would be like trying to describe what the color green looks like to a blind person.
      Many claim that enlightenment or "awake" is a state in which cannot be truly described so all you have left are guideposts, references and analogies. But you can still discuss the unimaginable. More over if one in the conversation has truly experienced the topic.

    22. #172
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by oleander View Post
      Happiness - Not that hard to define really. I have felt all these emotions and it feels like this: Excitement, laughter, euphoric, intangible, infectious, warm, priceless, belly aching, silly and priceless.

      When: I have felt it with friends, family, employees. Never planned.

      How: I chose to feel that.

      Just a thought: Try smiling when you are mad and say in your head "I never did mind the little things."
      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      Chose?
      You don't think that it was a response or product of the environment you were in?
      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      Aren't all choices a response or product of the environment you are in?
      I never got a response to this, but I'd still like to see one.

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
      Art
      Dream Journal Shaman Apprentice Chronicles

    23. #173
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally Posted by Xaqaria
      Aren't all choices a response or product of the environment you are in?
      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      I never got a response to this, but I'd still like to see one.
      Sorry I never meant to not respond or elaborate on that Xagaria.

      We conventionally think of the term (product of our environment) to mean our predisposed mental state correct? That and our actual current surroundings. Both can and do have a great impact on our state of well-being. Which imo is the case to which oleander had responded to. An atmosphere of friends, family, and employees.
      In her other examples, are these states we have that much control over? The person might think so. But consider naturally occurring states of sadness, happiness etc. But more importantly I think some have existing conditions of the brain such as depression or anxiety that does not portray an accurate portrait of our surrounding environment. This making the product itself misguided from our natural surroundings and input.
      Depending on how you look at environment it could be conditioning at any given point in time, which makes this a little hard to interpret or understand.
      Depression is a natural response to an irrational situation. However our minds do not think rationally in many cases, further misguiding us from what is true and what is not.

    24. #174
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      Why bother expressing or discussing things you believe cannot be expressed or discussed about?

      Here's a demonstration:
      + I believe only I can discuss and know of X
      + I discuss X with Y
      + Y does not understand X

      See the problem? Why do you keep doing it?

      Hope you have fun being lonely.

      ~
      O'nus, read Howies reply, he got it straight away. It's so simple.

      We've been over this already. I can talk about this all I want, provided the audience and myself are aware of the restrictions and limitations of expression. I can rationalize concepts, but the concepts are limited, spiritually pragmatic and they too, in practice, will eventually be replaced with more profound awareness...

      You have said (but I will recontextualise it):

      + I believe only I can discuss and know of X An assumption. I believe it is rare to know about X, but I am definately not alone in this.
      + I discuss X with Y all that may be involved; no privacy; no exclusion.
      + Y does not understand X So is this "Y" means you? Have you just admitted that you do not understand?

      I don't see any problems. If somebody else doesn't understand, so what? It's not a matter of speaking so that it makes sense for everyone, because that cannot happen. The Hawkins' scale of consciousness also illustrates this. What you have illustrated can occur in many areas of life. Neither the perceiver nor the perceived are "wrong". It is relative, but with increased awareness, the message simply becomes "illuminated" or understood in its context. This entails accuracy in communication, but "inaccuracy" is not wrong, it is the consequence of a limited perception; this is another topic... blah blah.
      Last edited by really; 10-28-2008 at 04:36 AM.

    25. #175
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      really, you're not understanding my point at all.

      Firstly, if you can only talk to those that have experienced what you have experienced and believe it to be true, this is a bias. You cannot have a persuasive discussion about it, you can only share the experience.

      And so this is the point - you cannot express the experience, demonstrate it, or persuade anyone else to believe in what you have experienced. You can do this for other things of utility, but not phenomenological experiences.

      ~

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