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    1. #176
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      Sorry I never meant to not respond or elaborate on that Xagaria.

      We conventionally think of the term (product of our environment) to mean our predisposed mental state correct? That and our actual current surroundings. Both can and do have a great impact on our state of well-being. Which imo is the case to which oleander had responded to. An atmosphere of friends, family, and employees.
      In her other examples, are these states we have that much control over? The person might think so. But consider naturally occurring states of sadness, happiness etc. But more importantly I think some have existing conditions of the brain such as depression or anxiety that does not portray an accurate portrait of our surrounding environment. This making the product itself misguided from our natural surroundings and input.
      Depending on how you look at environment it could be conditioning at any given point in time, which makes this a little hard to interpret or understand.
      Depression is a natural response to an irrational situation. However our minds do not think rationally in many cases, further misguiding us from what is true and what is not.
      Okay, I'm not really sure that answers my question. Let me put it another way; how are other choices different so that they can't be considered just a response to your environment? Is it merely a difference between rational and irrational? The physical act of smiling releases endorphins in the brain. Can't one rationally decide to smile and be happy?

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
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    2. #177
      Member really's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      really, you're not understanding my point at all.

      Firstly, if you can only talk to those that have experienced what you have experienced and believe it to be true, this is a bias. You cannot have a persuasive discussion about it, you can only share the experience.

      And so this is the point - you cannot express the experience, demonstrate it, or persuade anyone else to believe in what you have experienced. You can do this for other things of utility, but not phenomenological experiences.

      ~
      As I said, it is pragmatic for spiritual practice and purpose. There is no bias. If you're not interested or hold any related belief, it is not my problem.

    3. #178
      ex-redhat ClouD's Avatar
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      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

    4. #179
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      rofl...

      Just as I thought about semantics...

    5. #180
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      Okay, I'm not really sure that answers my question. Let me put it another way; how are other choices different so that they can't be considered just a response to your environment? Is it merely a difference between rational and irrational? The physical act of smiling releases endorphins in the brain. Can't one rationally decide to smile and be happy?
      I think my case against it is that I feel it often misrepresents the truth because there are so many other variables that tag along with it. By saying a product of the environment we tend to categorize our outcomes too simplistically. Sure one could consciously decide to smile. The end result would not always be happy. If you consider hard wiring of the brain (preexisting conditions) as a a part of the product of our environment then simply put, that would be true. As I sat here to consider what we have said, I think you can say that every situation is a product of the environment in some form or another right? I just feel it is so far removed............I guess I am trying to convey that saying that some people have no choice to how they perceive what would otherwise be a representation of the "product", that this makes the statement so vague it is almost meaningless. That is unless it is greatly expanded upon and examined. Does that make any sense?

    6. #181
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      As I said, it is pragmatic for spiritual practice and purpose. There is no bias. If you're not interested or hold any related belief, it is not my problem.
      There is a bias, now you're just being dumb. You said yourself that it is a subjective experience that you can only share with others - what is the difference between that and bias? None, because that is what a bias is. If you can only talk to those that believe the samething as you, for whatever reason, then it is a bias because you cannot speak of it to anyone else.

      I am interested in it, obviously, why else would I be speaking of it so much? The point I am trying to make to you is that you try so hard to preach your spirituality to others while simultaneously holding that you can only share it to those that already know of it. So why are you trying to have any discussion at all when you feel you can only speak to those that already know of it?

      Can you define what your spritual practice is? So far, it has been a plethora of pseudo-science, irrationability, and dependent on a bias while ostensibly holding that it is logical and rational regardless of the fact that you say you need to have experienced it in order to believe or know of it.

      I see little difference between you and a fundamentalist of any religion. Even if I have experienced what you said you are, and I hope you understand that I am aware of what you are speaking of, you cannot give any incentive for anyone else to believe what you are believing.

      But like you said, that's not your problem.

      So why the hell are you talking at all?

      ~

    7. #182
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      There is a bias, now you're just being dumb. You said yourself that it is a subjective experience that you can only share with others - what is the difference between that and bias? None, because that is what a bias is. If you can only talk to those that believe the samething as you, for whatever reason, then it is a bias because you cannot speak of it to anyone else.
      Gee, I thought this was obvious, and irrelevant. It's a subject. You can talk about subjects, you know??

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      So why are you trying to have any discussion at all when you feel you can only speak to those that already know of it?
      I don't. You seem to be strongly assuming that I do.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      Can you define what your spritual practice is?
      My spiritual practice follows the essential understandings from Buddhism and Hinduism, and but especially the various "mystics" (spiritual teachers of non-duality). There really is no hatred or ignorance for the messages of most major religions either; I could say I prefer to believe in "God" rather than religion itself.

      About Perennial Philosophy

      Non-duality essay

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      I see little difference between you and a fundamentalist of any religion. Even if I have experienced what you said you are, and I hope you understand that I am aware of what you are speaking of, you cannot give any incentive for anyone else to believe what you are believing.
      I'm not a fundamentalist, I just study what matters the most to me. The incentive, is obviously for someone who is interested in spiritual/religious practice, a dedication to truth and therefore ultimate happiness. If this is not motivational/interesting for you, there is no error in neither the script(s)/practice nor the seeker. It merely means you are not interested.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      So why the hell are you talking at all?
      You've got to be joking...

    8. #183
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Seriously really, can you at all explain what my point is? I am starting to doubt you can.

      ~

    9. #184
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      Seriously really, can you at all explain what my point is? I am starting to doubt you can.

      ~
      I can't see what you're saying very clearly yet, perhaps you can show some more examples.
      Last edited by really; 10-30-2008 at 07:51 AM.

    10. #185
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      I can't see what you're saying very clearly yet, perhaps you can show some more examples.
      + The only thing you can be certain of is subjective knowledge
      + Although everything else in the world is questionable, we can find use out of things through their utility
      + The utility of these things allow us to grow our individual awareness
      + Although we have subjective spurts of self-awareness, we cannot properly express this to anyone
      + Thus, speaking directly of self-enlightenment is impossible
      + Thus, while we cannot truly speak of subjective means, we ought to only speak of those things that offer utility as it propels mutual growth.

      There, this is a simple run-through. What do you think..?

      ~

    11. #186
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      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      + The only thing you can be certain of is subjective knowledge
      + Although everything else in the world is questionable, we can find use out of things through their utility
      + The utility of these things allow us to grow our individual awareness
      + Although we have subjective spurts of self-awareness, we cannot properly express this to anyone
      + Thus, speaking directly of self-enlightenment is impossible
      + Thus, while we cannot truly speak of subjective means, we ought to only speak of those things that offer utility as it propels mutual growth.

      There, this is a simple run-through. What do you think..?

      ~
      I see ignorance, because it assumes nobody else can understand or "utilize" information by precluding communication of important, essential truths. But, this may be useful for some people rather than others. In the context of a forum, often there is no way to tell.

      What do you think?
      Last edited by really; 10-30-2008 at 08:17 AM.

    12. #187
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      I see ignorance, because it assumes nobody else can understand or "utilize" information by precluding communication of important, essential truths. But, this may be useful for some people rather than others. In the context of a forum, often there is no way to tell.
      Firstly, I agree with you on the severe problems of forum communication - there are many more ways than just text to communicate.

      Furthermore, there are simply somethings that cannot be spoken of at all. For example, "I". I can tell you that "I like blue" but you will never know, no matter how hard I try, what "I". This is why there is such a dichotomy between minds to begin with. We struggle to communicate ideas and how we feel and there are some things which can never be even spoken of.

      Most importantly, you could never truly speak of an epiphany and how it affected you. You may have learned something new, but if others havn't shared this same learning, then you cannot speak of it.

      I can prove this to, very easily; you can never speak to someone who has not learned your language. It is necessary for others to have some experience to learn and communicate with others. We mostly learn from a bottom-up analogical fashion, but we can never learn or communicate from a top-down direct propositional fashion.

      Do you agree..??

      ~

    13. #188
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      Quote Originally Posted by Howie View Post
      What is happiness. I have seen some people that are always cheerful and great to be around. Sure everyone experiences some depression from time to time. But is true happiness a dream for some? Some having it and some don't?

      What is happiness in your eyes?
      What do you think the quality of life should be?

      If you are happy, what are you like. That is my question.
      I think happiness is completely relative and that no one is happier than anyone else. The measurements of happiness can come in different quantities at different times and different places and ways. To measure it is impossible, but as a scientist, philosopher and dreamer there is only one answer. If you consider it another part of Karma, then there is no other side to choose.

    14. #189
      Member really's Avatar
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      lol dylanshmai, thanks for reminding me that I am off-topic.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      Furthermore, there are simply somethings that cannot be spoken of at all. For example, "I". I can tell you that "I like blue" but you will never know, no matter how hard I try, what "I". This is why there is such a dichotomy between minds to begin with. We struggle to communicate ideas and how we feel and there are some things which can never be even spoken of.

      Most importantly, you could never truly speak of an epiphany and how it affected you. You may have learned something new, but if others havn't shared this same learning, then you cannot speak of it.

      I can prove this to, very easily; you can never speak to someone who has not learned your language. It is necessary for others to have some experience to learn and communicate with others. We mostly learn from a bottom-up analogical fashion, but we can never learn or communicate from a top-down direct propositional fashion.

      Do you agree..??
      Well I don't think an unfamiliar "epiphany" can be compared with someone who speaks a different language. Being extreme, that is like saying "That was amazing, it revealed this to me..." is essentially the same as "vixq&pghs-extrospip".

      You can share everything, exclude only what you deem to be private or inappropriate. Thus, you essentially share what you think others can draw good use from, even if it's for yourself. If there is the possibility to express something, one should take advantage of the benefits of this and use them at best.

    15. #190
      ex-redhat ClouD's Avatar
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      Really, wherever you draw the line on the page, there is still a line.

      I suppose there's still a page too though. Bahahaha
      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

    16. #191
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      Quote Originally Posted by ClouD View Post
      Really, wherever you draw the line on the page, there is still a line.

      I suppose there's still a page too though. Bahahaha
      I guess you suggest I leave it blank.

    17. #192
      ex-redhat ClouD's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      I guess you suggest I leave it blank.
      I'd be hypocritical if so, hmm?
      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

    18. #193
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      Quote Originally Posted by ClouD View Post
      I'd be hypocritical if so, hmm?
      Aha! lol

    19. #194
      Bio-Turing Machine O'nus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Well I don't think an unfamiliar "epiphany" can be compared with someone who speaks a different language. Being extreme, that is like saying "That was amazing, it revealed this to me..." is essentially the same as "vixq&pghs-extrospip".
      In regards to experience, they are the same. When you have an epiphany, only you have the epiphany. Also, if it is a necessary learning stage, then others must have that same learning stage in order to understand what you're talking about (eg. math).

      You can share everything, exclude only what you deem to be private or inappropriate. Thus, you essentially share what you think others can draw good use from, even if it's for yourself. If there is the possibility to express something, one should take advantage of the benefits of this and use them at best.
      You can share everything. However, I think we can both agree that somethings can never be properly expressed unless we have either empirical evidenc of it or if the other person has experienced it themselves. This being the holy foundation of communication... lol

      ~

    20. #195
      Eltit Resu Motsuc Achievements:
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      *Yawn*
      Current projects:
      -Acquire the Aurora
      -Test galatamine, huperzine and choline
      -Find smartwatch app for RC reminders at certain intervals
      -Ressurect my dream log here, and become more active

    21. #196
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      Happy (adj):

      Fitter, happier, more productive,
      comfortable,
      not drinking too much,
      regular exercise at the gym
      (3 days a week),
      getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries,
      at ease,
      eating well,
      (no more microwave dinners and saturated fats),
      a patient better driver,
      a safer car,
      (baby smiling in back seat),
      sleeping well
      (no bad dreams),
      no paranoia,
      careful to all animals,
      (never washing spiders down the plughole),
      keep in contact with old friends,
      (enjoy a drink now and then),
      will frequently check credit at
      (moral) bank (hole in the wall),
      favors for favors,
      fond but not in love,
      charity standing orders,
      on Sundays ring road supermarket,
      (no killing moths or putting boiling water on the ants),
      car wash
      (also on Sundays),
      no longer afraid of the dark or midday shadows,
      nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate,
      nothing so childish - at a better pace,
      slower and more calculated,
      no chance of escape,
      now self-employed,
      concerned (but powerless),
      an empowered and informed member of society,
      (pragmatism not idealism),
      will not cry in public,
      less chance of illness,
      tires that grip in the wet,
      (shot of baby strapped in back seat),
      a good memory,
      still cries at a good film,
      still kisses with saliva,
      no longer empty and frantic
      like a cat
      tied to a stick,
      that's driven into
      frozen winter shit
      (the ability to laugh at weakness),
      calm,
      fitter,
      healthier and more productive
      a pig
      in a cage
      on antibiotics.

      Or so I heard? :V

    22. #197
      Eltit Resu Motsuc Achievements:
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      Timothy Paradox's Avatar
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      Best definition so far. Eat that O'nus and Really!
      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Happy (adj):

      Fitter, happier, more productive,
      comfortable,
      not drinking too much,
      regular exercise at the gym
      (3 days a week),
      getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries,
      at ease,
      eating well,
      (no more microwave dinners and saturated fats),
      a patient better driver,
      a safer car,
      (baby smiling in back seat),
      sleeping well
      (no bad dreams),
      no paranoia,
      careful to all animals,
      (never washing spiders down the plughole),
      keep in contact with old friends,
      (enjoy a drink now and then),
      will frequently check credit at
      (moral) bank (hole in the wall),
      favors for favors,
      fond but not in love,
      charity standing orders,
      on Sundays ring road supermarket,
      (no killing moths or putting boiling water on the ants),
      car wash
      (also on Sundays),
      no longer afraid of the dark or midday shadows,
      nothing so ridiculously teenage and desperate,
      nothing so childish - at a better pace,
      slower and more calculated,
      no chance of escape,
      now self-employed,
      concerned (but powerless),
      an empowered and informed member of society,
      (pragmatism not idealism),
      will not cry in public,
      less chance of illness,
      tires that grip in the wet,
      (shot of baby strapped in back seat),
      a good memory,
      still cries at a good film,
      still kisses with saliva,
      no longer empty and frantic
      like a cat
      tied to a stick,
      that's driven into
      frozen winter shit
      (the ability to laugh at weakness),
      calm,
      fitter,
      healthier and more productive
      a pig
      in a cage
      on antibiotics.

      Or so I heard? :V
      Current projects:
      -Acquire the Aurora
      -Test galatamine, huperzine and choline
      -Find smartwatch app for RC reminders at certain intervals
      -Ressurect my dream log here, and become more active

    23. #198
      Member really's Avatar
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      Timothy Paradox, I will eat it. I am happy, whatever the case.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post
      In regards to experience, they are the same. When you have an epiphany, only you have the epiphany. Also, if it is a necessary learning stage, then others must have that same learning stage in order to understand what you're talking about (eg. math).
      I understand your point... But I disagree that the experiences you have compared are equally blind.

      Still, use, purpose and understanding is up to you to pursue. Utilize what you will, risk; sacrifice what you will. I have passed the threshold of what the world would call rational, but I am not regretting anything.

    24. #199
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      I've been thinking about this subject too, and my view on it is simple. Happiness is not a goal, but a reward for achieving our goals. If you try to achieve happiness directly you will fail, because happinesss is a reward, not a goal. Happiness is a tool that drives us to creation and evolution. The scientific explanation of happiness would be the reward pathways in the brains.

      Being happy is not important at all! It is important you try to live out your dreams, and by doing so you will be rewarded by happiness.

      Or if you're too lazy to get up and work on your dreams, you can just meditate/lucid dream and experience happiness any time you want. But then again, the ability to meditate/luciddream takes work too, so if you're lazy, you're fucked and basicly destined to be unhappy. And by being unhappy you will turn lazy and unmotivated, completing the vicious circle.
      "Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina

    25. #200
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      I've been thinking about this subject too, and my view on it is simple. Happiness is not a goal, but a reward for achieving our goals. If you try to achieve happiness directly you will fail, because happinesss is a reward, not a goal. Happiness is a tool that drives us to creation and evolution. The scientific explanation of happiness would be the reward pathways in the brains.

      Being happy is not important at all! It is important you try to live out your dreams, and by doing so you will be rewarded by happiness.

      Or if you're too lazy to get up and work on your dreams, you can just meditate/lucid dream and experience happiness any time you want. But then again, the ability to meditate/luciddream takes work too, so if you're lazy, you're fucked and basicly destined to be unhappy. And by being unhappy you will turn lazy and unmotivated, completing the vicious circle.
      I don't fully agree with ya ChaybaChayba. Although I do agree that you have a great point that it is more directly often a feeling we arrive at after we achieve our goals. Similar to what I have been pondering in my last several posts, I feel that this omits waaay to many variables. It is just not that simple. In fact I have achieved goals only to feel empty.
      Some people do not seem hardwired or driven by "goals" - that in itself is so subjective we can throw that in with trying to define "happy"
      Also what is directly trying to achieve happiness? It is unattainable unless it is indirectly pursued?
      Isn't happy just there.... just as unhappiness is?

      Xaqaria
      I have not seen a response from you.

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