Any Sceptics here annoyed...

[m-mischief]

by the fact we aren't allowed to post in the paranormal section? surely people should be able to share their views on all topics. And give their own alternative views on certain things. Looks like the woo artists cant take it when people disagree with them or criticize their theories.

[Oneironaut Zero]

Actually, skeptics are allowed to post in Beyond Dreaming (however unofficially) The warning that they are not has been there since the section opened but, since then, we have become a little more lenient on it. The thing is, it is strictly moderated, and we only allow civil discussion to go on in there. It is not like the Religion/Spirituality forum, which is practically a free-for-all. We do not allow insults and the like to be slung around in there. For the record, your final sentence is a pretty good example of why skeptics were, at the time, not allowed in there. It seems that some people have a hard time just "sharing their views on all topics," without slipping the inevitable insult into their text. [Edit: Although, to be precise, if you do feel the need to debate the existence of the supernatural, you are more than welcome to do so in Extended Discussion. It is much more open to debate than Beyond Dreaming, and you're welcome to discuss the same sorts of topics there.]

[nina]

It's obvious to me you miss the point entirely. I'm very thankful that skeptics aren't allowed to destroy every thread in that forum.

[m-mischief]

Criticism is not destroying the forum. You don't even have to read it. Its the fact that i thought people were not allowed to give their opinions if they disagreed. Thats why i got all on the offensive in my post. I wouldn't intend to insult anyone. Just be all civilized and debate the posts. Having said that, being the free speech fanatic that i am, i think people should be allowed to go all crazy and offensive if they wish. Which again, wouldn't ruin the forum at all, because you have the choice to ignore any comments left. My point being you shouldn't censor anyone unless they are dishing out serious threats.

[ThePhobiaViewed]

The point of that forum is to discuss things and share sites and knowledge with people on those topics. People are usually just looking for more information and when people come and start bashing their beliefs then the threads turn into flame wars and no one learns anything. If a thread is made to debate the existence of a phenomenom then there is no problem with doing so but if a person is looking for experiences or something like that then sceptics can make the threads messy.

[Mes Tarrant]

Yeah I don't see anything much wrong with having a forum which is exclusively for people who share in those beliefs. You could just as easily have one exclusively for people who don't share their beliefs. If you want to debate paranormal things, you have free reign to do so in other forums. I can understand the need for groups to have like a mini "oasis" somewhere. And like Phobia said, it really messes things up for people who are just looking for some info but have no interest in debating the matter.

[NonDualistic]

The free speech notion is all fine and dandy, but theres a thing called common sense used to govern jumping in on a existing active thread and throwing out criticism. Alot of threads deal with general commentary and discusion clearly open to all views, then there are threads that are dealing with people who are like minded trying to discuss a common subject. When someone else, sceptics and critics, jumps in and throws in thier antithetical view it takes the topic completely off subject for the rest who are trying to have a productive discussion among themselves. You must realize that when there are a group of believers talking they are not discussing whether someting is or is not, they are discussing more so how, not if. When another jumps in and takes up the subject of if, then that skews the discussion for the rest. This is just a generalization of the idea. Free speech does not trumpet the necesity of actually saying something all of the time. Though there are some who are not well practiced in the art of discretion who do feel such need.

[m-mischief]

The free speech notion is all fine and dandy, but theres a thing called common sense used to govern jumping in on a existing active thread and throwing out criticism. Alot of threads deal with general commentary and discusion clearly open to all views, then there are threads that are dealing with people who are like minded trying to discuss a common subject. When someone else, sceptics and critics, jumps in and throws in thier antithetical view it takes the topic completely off subject for the rest who are trying to have a productive discussion among themselves. You must realize that when there are a group of believers talking they are not discussing whether someting is or is not, they are discussing more so how, not if. When another jumps in and takes up the subject of if, then that skews the discussion for the rest. This is just a generalization of the idea. Free speech does not trumpet the necesity of actually saying something all of the time. Though there are some who are not well practiced in the art of discretion who do feel such need. It doesn't trumpet the necessity, but that is not what i was arguing. I'm saying if someone wants to criticize they should be allowed in any circumstance. I also realize that the admins of this forum have the right to kick you out for any reason whatsoever. And have the right to say "this thread is only for believers" just in case anyone thinks im unaware of that. But if someone's post is to send a thread off topic then so be it. But it takes more than one person to throw a thread off topic. People don't have to respond to criticism. The can ignore the person and carry on with their conversation. But i think its just wrong to say "you cant make your voice heard on this particular forum". Haha I'm the lone nut on this one.

[m-mischief]

The point of that forum is to discuss things and share sites and knowledge with people on those topics. People are usually just looking for more information and when people come and start bashing their beliefs then the threads turn into flame wars and no one learns anything. If a thread is made to debate the existence of a phenomenom then there is no problem with doing so but if a person is looking for experiences or something like that then sceptics can make the threads messy. Yes. And Knowledge should be able to come from everyone. if a person is looking for experiences or something like that then sceptics can make the threads messy Well, if a person is looking for an experience then people should give advice whatever their views. Weather that advice is "keep trying to astrally project" or "there is no evidence to say astral projection works so you should don't waste your LDs"

[Xaqaria]

Yes. And Knowledge should be able to come from everyone. Well, if a person is looking for an experience then people should give advice whatever their views. Weather that advice is "keep trying to astrally project" or "there is no evidence to say astral projection works so you should don't waste your LDs" Damn fool brits don't know how to use their own effing language.

[Universal Mind]

Criticism is not destroying the forum. You don't even have to read it. Its the fact that i thought people were not allowed to give their opinions if they disagreed. Thats why i got all on the offensive in my post. I wouldn't intend to insult anyone. Just be all civilized and debate the posts. Having said that, being the free speech fanatic that i am, i think people should be allowed to go all crazy and offensive if they wish. Which again, wouldn't ruin the forum at all, because you have the choice to ignore any comments left. My point being you shouldn't censor anyone unless they are dishing out serious threats. It's nice to have some forums to go to and know that I am in peaceful territory. It's a good break from the open fire zones Extended Discussion and Religion/Spirituality are, which are a lot of fun when I am in the mood for that kind of stuff, which is a whole lot of the time. In the dreaming forums, it's especially nice to talk about really off the wall stuff and know that the conversations are going to be peaceful. It's a good escape and stress reliever. Constant verbal onslaughts would destroy that atmosphere, so argument is not much a part of those forums. That is how the owner of the site wants it, and we are on his property right now.

[Moonbeam]

^^^^Exactly.

[m-mischief]

That is how the owner of the site wants it, and we are on his property right now. Exactly what i said in the comment i left above. And i have no intention of flaming anyone. I don't do that sort of thing unless someone is being offensive because i know it archives nothing. I just think we all should be allowed to say "your paranormal experience could be explained like this....." rather than not being able to participate. Having said that Oneironaut did say we were allowed post criticism as long as we are not flaming. Which, in that case. I don't actually have a problem anymore. And here is me flaming someone: Quote: Originally Posted by m-mischief View Post Yes. And Knowledge should be able to come from everyone. Well, if a person is looking for an experience then people should give advice whatever their views. Weather that advice is "keep trying to astrally project" or "there is no evidence to say astral projection works so you should don't waste your LDs" Damn fool brits don't know how to use their own effing language. Im dyslexic you pedantic CUNT.

[Placebo]

You're not a skeptic. You're a critic. Personally, I feel skeptics are fine in that forum. Cynics and critics on the other hand tend to get out of hand

[m-mischief]

You're not a skeptic. You're a critic. Personally, I feel skeptics are fine in that forum. Cynics and critics on the other hand tend to get out of hand Cynic? I don't think so. Where are these accusations coming from. I am genuinely offended. Critic, yes. So what? Criticism is important. Actually, your pretty hypocritical, your criticizing my by calling me a critic. Edit: I realize you weren't specifically calling me a cynic.

[Placebo]

I feel confident to call you a critic as opposed to skeptic based on the last line in your opening post And as you realized, I'm not calling you a cynic specifically Anyway, as mentioned, the problem is the insults and animosity that tends to come out of those forums when they aren't watched carefully

[m-mischief]

I feel confident to call you a critic as opposed to skeptic based on the last line in your opening post And as you realized, I'm not calling you a cynic specifically Anyway, as mentioned, the problem is the insults and animosity that tends to come out of those forums when they aren't watched carefully isn't everyone a critic? isn't every sceptic who posts on the forum going to criticize. Well as I said in my above posts i don't wish to insult people. However i did say that people should be allowed to speak their mind on any forum. However stupid their mind is. So if they want to insult anyone, so be it, you can easily ignore insults. Edit: I had good reason to use that sentence. The whole idea that sceptics aren't allowed to criticize grinded my gears. But now i am informed that its only flamers that arent allowed to comment i take it back.

[Universal Mind]

isn't everyone a critic? isn't every sceptic who posts on the forum going to criticize. Well as I said in my above posts i don't wish to insult people. However i did say that people should be allowed to speak their mind on any forum. However stupid their mind is. So if they want to insult anyone, so be it, you can easily ignore insults. Edit: I had good reason to use that sentence. The whole idea that sceptics aren't allowed to criticize grinded my gears. But now i am informed that its only flamers that arent allowed to comment i take it back. You might be able to handle a debate or giving a critique without ever getting rude, but the problem is that a lot of people don't tend to handle disagreement that way. I also think Beyond Dreaming is a fantasy forum, and skepticism/criticism messes up the idea. I don't believe in a lot of the things talked about in there, but sometimes it's fun to suppose it's true while I'm there. Arguing against the stuff would be like going up to a group of kids playing cops and robbers and telling them that they have not been through the police academy and that their guns are not real. Beyond Dreaming is a fun place for imagination. But the lucid dreaming forums are different. I think they are good for educational purposes, so people should get to the truth there. However, I am sometimes guilty of expressing skepticism there, particularly when people talk about evil spirits. That stuff freaked me out so bad when I was a Christian that I have a major tendency to try to convince people that evil spirits do not exist. I need to stop doing that in Beyond Dreaming.

[LucidFlanders]

Beyond dreaming is for the believrs ONLY, it even says Here OBEs, dream precognition, sharing dreams, and other freaky paranormal things can be discussed. Note that this particular forum is ONLY for members who BELIEVE in the aforementioned topics. People just ignore the rules of the forums for what they believe in.

[♥Mark]

What annoys me is that people want to hide from the truth to begin with. It annoys me that people seek to sheild their beliefs from criticism in case they're wrong. It's disgusting, really. It sickens me to know that so many actually seek ignorance, and that so many others find it such a crime to point out something is wrong when we see that it is. It's a problem with people, not this forum. If you're one of these people who hides, let me tell you right now, there is something very, very wrong with you. You are a coward and intellectually bankrupt. You are the scum of this world and thought patterns such as yours are the cause of basically every problem humans face and also why it's hard to solve those problems. Stop hiding. For my sake, for yours.

[Oneironaut Zero]

What annoys me is that people want to hide from the truth to begin with. It annoys me that people seek to sheild their beliefs from criticism in case they're wrong. It's disgusting, really. It sickens me to know that so many actually seek ignorance, and that so many others find it such a crime to point out something is wrong when we see that it is. It's a problem with people, not this forum. If you're one of these people who hides, let me tell you right now, there is something very, very wrong with you. You are a coward and intellectually bankrupt. You are the scum of this world and thought patterns such as yours are the cause of basically every problem humans face and also why it's hard to solve those problems. Stop hiding. For my sake, for yours. ...says the man with the "Guaranteed to Satisfy" custom title. (I'm joking, Mark. )

[♥Mark]

Or your money back!

[Cyclic13]

The more experience one gains as they go forward in life, the more one would realize things in this world aren't as simply clean cut as labeling someone 'hiding from the truth', or 'seeking shield behind beliefs and ignorance' or not. What do you mean exactly? Considering all truth is subjective anyway, why the hell do you care so much? And, how does your version of the so-called 'truth' ring true across the board for all ears? THAT, is where the heart of all real problems lie-- in pressuring people to believe what you believe. Thinking yourself infallible and never humbling yourself into realizing you know absolutely nothing about anything...EVER. Words are inert symbols of vagueness of a culture's futile attempts at self-expression. Attempts at communication which always inevitably fall short of their mark and amount to absolutely nothing in the end. NO words can ever hold or carry any intrinsic meaning forward through time. The experience which is carried in those words or any label given through the process of scientific observation does next to nothing towards answering anything. They are just markers. Sure, a scientist can label something until they are blue in the face... the individual parts to a cell... the individual parts to a molecule... an atom... an electron cloud... quarks... etc...etc... ALL of it means nothing to me. Those words they ignorantly assign to observation don't do anything to explain it's purpose... it's intent... the why behind experience. If they think there is no why, that's their own leap of faith by jumping to conclusions... Not mine. Words just serve as markers of someone whose observed it before. That's it. Nothing more. Like man leaving a flag on the moon. Completely pointless and useless in describing the why of the moon, wouldn't you say? Think about it.

[♥Mark]

The more experience one gains as they go forward in life, the more one would realize things in this world aren't as simply clean cut as labeling someone 'hiding from the truth', or 'seeking shield behind beliefs and ignorance' or not. Actually, most of the time it is that easy. When someone says "plz respect my buleefs i wil baleev wut i want 2" it sends a very clear message. It is telling me they "believe" it because it seems like it'd be nice if it were true, rather than because they have actually got a valid, rational reason to believe it. What exactly do you mean exactly? Considering all truth is subjective anyway, why the hell do you care so much? And, how does your version of the so-called 'truth' ring true across the board for all ears? THAT, is where the heart of all real problems lie-- in pressuring people to believe what you believe. Thinking yourself infallible and never humbling yourself into realizing you know absolutely nothing about anything...EVER. If anyone talks as though they are infallible and never humble themselves, it's you and your condescending posts and endless elitism. I care because idiots are ruining my planet. There's nothing in your post to think about. Your rant on words was nonsense and your analogy with the moon borderlines insanity.

[LucidFlanders]

What annoys me is that people want to hide from the truth to begin with. It annoys me that people seek to sheild their beliefs from criticism in case they're wrong. It's disgusting, really. It sickens me to know that so many actually seek ignorance, and that so many others find it such a crime to point out something is wrong when we see that it is. It's a problem with people, not this forum. If you're one of these people who hides, let me tell you right now, there is something very, very wrong with you. You are a coward and intellectually bankrupt. You are the scum of this world and thought patterns such as yours are the cause of basically every problem humans face and also why it's hard to solve those problems. Stop hiding. For my sake, for yours. What's the truth? what you say the truth is? seems the truth is what atheists believe, so not believing an atheist and becoming one would be pretty much non cowardness? btw i don't hide, i just get annoyed when things go like this Me: I believe in this You: Then your belief is wrong, this proves you wrong Also when people seem to ignore other things, and go back to whatever their belief system is like science, religion, whatever, and they still don't got answers but their right because the other parts connect like 1+1=2.