Thread: Religion holding back?

There is much substance in what is on your mind.

The worlds spiritual teachings allude to what you have just said in one way or another


Your belief in the construct of your self, your own existant psyche, is being once removed from your true Self


Your belief in constructs of that psyche is being twice removed from your true Self

Your belief in religion , and thus a external seprate god is being thrice removed from your true Self


One just keeps extending their perception away from that which they already are

Self is Self within all existant beings, one must learn to see past the existant self to the Self

Faith in "God" could be no different than willpower and belief in yourself.

I also feel the same way about faith. I do not like how people put faith in a non-intervening (if free will the case) higher power. But in another way I could see faith as something like trust. The person does have belief in themselves, and they might just think "well God, whatever happens and whatever I do, I'm trusting you the outcome is either the best outcome or was meant to be, and that it will benefit me in the long run".

That kind of faith, is more like an extreme case of hope in my opinion. Hope that the final outcome will be worth it. Which is the kind of faith I believe the average (not hardcore) religious person has. You can hope something will happen, but when you have faith in something, its a bigger let down if things don't go your way.

To me real faith is not depedant on external physical circumstances surrounding ones existant life.

To me what is labeled as God is part of oneself, the internal Self, hidden behind the existant psyche one believes themselves to be.

This Self responds to "prayers" made in real faith concerning matters non existential in the physical world. The circumstances in our existential lives arrange in a pattern in which to fascilitate the fulfillment of those prayers.


People get too causght up in the "good" and "bad" perceptions of what is going on around them to realize where all these Good and Bad things are taking them overall in the end picture. Attachment, aversion, and desire for these things creates ones own sense of suffering. Best to sit back, enjoy the ride and be in a mindset of allowing. No judgement and therefore no suffering.

When one thinks in terms of a seperate god and focuses on the material circumstances surrounding their existential lives, it kind of like driving a car blind.

Well thanks for the replies!! They have me even more so question what we are told about religion/spirituality

Originally Posted by mindwanderer

what you will to be done will be done.

That's pretty much the "Law of Attraction", and it's complete bullshit. If wills/wishes/prayers actually worked, why the hell would people ever die of starvation?

It's wishful thinking.

"That's pretty much the "Law of Attraction", and it's complete bullshit."
HAHA...blunt and to the point

Originally Posted by thegnome54

That's pretty much the "Law of Attraction", and it's complete bullshit. If wills/wishes/prayers actually worked, why the hell would people ever die of starvation?

It's wishful thinking.

Your am my discussion on energy and consciousness has me going Hmmmmmm on the law of attraction and the way it is implied to work.

I think there is something substantial to the idea behind it, but the manner in which it is laid out is just not right in my view. I am aware of spiritual teachings that insinuate something along the lines of Law of attraction, but , as I said, not in that way really.

There to me seems to be some subtle key therein that most are missing, something relating back to the nature of energy and consciousenss as we are delving into. I have modified my stance some since my posts in the law of attraction topic due to our discussions, and I am going to leave the door open to the idea behind it. i want to see where our discussion and the ideas from it go.

religion most definitely holds God back in the sense that it has held us back for so long.

but thats why we have the spiritual path. spirituality sets people free

my take on this is that it's easier to believe in a god who will make sure life works out ok for you than it is to believe in yourself. perhaps i never won the lottery because i didn't honestly believe i was going to, sure i'd like to but wanting something would be very different to having enough strength of will and conviction to alter reality and make it happen.

i see spells and prayers as the same thing, putting your desires into a form where you believe they will happen strongly enough that they do.

to the question of why do people starve i'd suggest (purely within the context of this discussion!) that while they WANT food, they don't believe it will come to them or believe in their own ability to make that happen.

so religions, interesting thoughts here, what if the leaders of the religions want the world to work a certain way. perhaps it's very rare that someone believes in the ability to change reality strongly enough to make it actually happen but if you can get a few followers, or a few hundred, or a few thousand, or a few million to believe that the world works a certain way, perhaps that collective belief will steer things your way or perhaps one of them will posess such total faith that that one person will change reality. such faith in isolation could be hard to maintain, "blind faith" from one person within a crowd of followers might be easier to achieve.

here's a thought. what about alternative realities? the concept that every decision taken splites reality into two new paths, one where the decision is taken, one where it isn't. every roll of the lottery would theoretically split reality into what, 14 million realities? could we, through force of will, make sure we were in the reality that suited us? getting the right one out of 14 million for a lottery win or just the right one out of 2 for a coin toss? if i could look at all the ways my life goes over the years like a huge tree diagram of choices taken or not, could i steer myself in a direction where i end up happy, or rich, or living to a ripe old age? i'm sure lots of those threads end up with those eventualities, just as many of them don't. could i steer myself in a vague direction instead of down one specific thread out of the millions?

food for thought...

Originally Posted by mindwanderer

In most all religions you pray to a god or several gods. Now some people aren't religious and simply believe that thru practice and sheer will power anything can be achieved. Today I was thinking assuming that is true could religion be holding people back. And that "god" is yourself.

once upon a time when people prayed to a terrifying old man in the sky ready to strike with a bloody vengeance and fury, there were very few people who dared to say something different.

one crazy man over 2000 years ago, not only said the he was one with God. but also said that the God that is in him, is in you. then he even goes on to say, that through God you can do anything. that is to say, God through you.

he then went out and performed miracles, but there was always a catch. you had to have absolute faith in the miracle, or else it will not happen. No one could be healed if they did not believe they could be healed. will power is what created the miracle, not a magical God in the sky.

its a damn tragedy that religion got a hold of this mans teaching and transformed it into the dogmatic Christian religion we have today. religion is going to hold many people back, because it denies a true spiritual path.

congrats on taking your first spiritual step! its a path no one can walk for you.

some people come to this path, such as myself, from a religious Christian background. the Christian then realizes in this thing called the Christ Consciousness, which is God manifesting in you.

It also recognizes that you co-created your own life and reality - there is no God in the sky or devil to blame for how shitty your life is. You need only to look at yourself to see how you created or attracted all the problems in your life.

Some people come to this spiritual path from a pagan background, very similar to the Christian - they recognize a God in them - normally the Divine Feminine, rather than a masculine figure. Having a yin-yang relationship with Christianity, the female can then see herself as a Goddess, or recognize that she is God.

Buddhism is an obvious one, but not all Buddhists have recognized how they could be God.

Others come to this path purely from a scientific outlook. Thanks to the advances of science, we can see now more than ever how humans really do create their own reality. And how important, consciousness is to reality.

I find spirituality amazing and true because of all the different backgrounds that walk into it. and regardless of the background, how similar the truths are each person is holding.

Normally the biggest difference in spirituality is whether they recognize if there is a creator for reality before mankind came into the picture. But that difference in the belief of a creator is superficial for now, in that all the different groups can still get along in a way that religious groups can't.

Originally Posted by juroara

we can see now more than ever how humans really do create their own reality.
.

Do you mean we create our own reality in its entirety? Or just te situation we're in?

Originally Posted by thegnome54

That's pretty much the "Law of Attraction", and it's complete bullshit. If wills/wishes/prayers actually worked, why the hell would people ever die of starvation?

It's wishful thinking.

the law of attraction states that wishful thinking doesn't work. the law of attraction states that hopes and desires for the future do not manifest in the present, nor do they necessarily will. because thoughts about the future remain in the future.

you have to think in terms of RIGHT NOW

when a person suffers, all they see and know is their present condition. that they are suffering. all their thoughts are on how hungry they are, and how far away food is. they can hope and pray *begging in this case of prayer* for food to come, but in the law of attraction this doesn't work. why? because they are sending out thoughts to the universe that they are suffering. thus, it is these thoughts that manifest. suffering.

that is the law of attraction.

saying a prayer "please please, send me food" will not work. because this kind of prayer shows that deep down inside this person doesn't really believe they will receive food. begging shows doubt.

the law of attraction says you have to think of what you want for the future, as if it is happening RIGHT NOW. therefore, if someone who is suffering from starvation wants to end their starvation, they have to think

"I am not starving. I have lots of yummy food right now and I am satisfied."

this is nearly impossible to do for someone who is suffering so much, all they can see is their outer condition. help from someone else is still important in these cases.

its easy to say the law of attraction doesn't work, WHEN YOU HAVE NEVER TRIED IT.

Originally Posted by Omega Weapon

Do you mean we create our own reality in its entirety? Or just te situation we're in?

I believe human beings are co-creators. we do not create reality in its entirety. I don't think human beings for example, created the laws of the universe.

rather we are in the framework of reality, and we decide whether our personal reality will be of one of suffering or joy.

we don't live in closed off little boxes. who created the situation you are in? not you yourself alone. but certainly, through your thoughts, through your karma you attract certain situations to yourself.

you also have to keep in mind most of the time we think passively. we aren't thinking about what we want to manifest in our lives right now. because our thoughts are more passive, the conditions of the world can manifest in our lives easier.

if you are tired of the conditions of the world manifesting in your life, then your thoughts need to become more aggressive, more clear and determined.

but I think this is only half the picture if you don't believe in reincarnation. I do believe in reincarnation, and in past lives. and I believe it is your past life that attracts your first situation in this life time - namely - where you are born, and what family you are born into.

the law of attraction, which I call karma, I believe can attract an outer condition in your life based on thoughts from a previous life time. some of the tragedies that happen in your life time, did not happen because you created them from thought forms in this life time, but rather from a past life time.

gurus tell us that through meditation you can raise above the thought forms of past life times, and prevent the law of attraction attracting bad things based on our past.

Originally Posted by juroara

because they are sending out thoughts to the universe that they are suffering. thus, it is these thoughts that manifest. suffering.

that is the law of attraction.

... snip...

the law of attraction says you have to think of what you want for the future, as if it is happening RIGHT NOW. therefore, if someone who is suffering from starvation wants to end their starvation, they have to think

"I am not starving. I have lots of yummy food right now and I am satisfied."

i'm curious about these aspects. what you appear to be saying is that if you believe you are well fed, the law of attraction will make that become true. if this is the case, is there then no such thing as delusion? anyone who is truly deluded has a belief that things are not as they are. by what i understand of what you are saying, a truly deluded person will, in fact, become whatever they believe themselves to be?

did that make any sense at all?

Originally Posted by franki

i'm curious about these aspects. what you appear to be saying is that if you believe you are well fed, the law of attraction will make that become true. if this is the case, is there then no such thing as delusion? anyone who is truly deluded has a belief that things are not as they are. by what i understand of what you are saying, a truly deluded person will, in fact, become whatever they believe themselves to be?

did that make any sense at all?

now, the law of attraction is about attracting an outer condition, being attracted because of an inner condition. you think *inner* and therefore you attract something *outer*.

there has to be two things, two objects, two actions, for attraction. for cause and effect to take place.

so why can't the crazy person turn into a banana if he thinks hes a banana? can the law of attraction be applied to a condition that is also an inner condition as well?

I think because in this scenario, as a co-creator, there are some things you can not un-create. You can not for example, un-create something your ability as a co-creator can not influence. For example, as a co-creator you can not influence the matrix of creating. Therefore you can not un-create the laws of creation itself. Is the same true for your being? Did you create your being? And can your thoughts un-create it? I don't know what the fine line is when the law of attraction doesn't work, but I think there is a fine line.

I would say, we did not create ourselves, nor did we create the blue print of ourselves. Therefore, our thoughts can not influence the blue print of ourselves because it is ourselves.

In this way, the crazy person can not un-create their humanity and transform into a banana.

You may not have a say as to what you are. But your thoughts certainly create, WHO you are. You are WHO you think you are.

You can for example, become a better person just by believing you are. Or, become a crazy person if you think you are crazy.

A mentally unstable person, is mentally unstable because their thoughts conflict each other. For example, the crazy person may say that he thinks hes a banana. But the next moment eat steak. And knows, some where in the back in his mind, bananas don't eat steak.

The law of attraction is not biased. It will NOT ignore some of your thoughts to make sense of others. Rather, conflicting thoughts will cancel each other out - like noise. Nothing is 'heard' by the universe to bring back to you as an outer condition. Since bananas don't eat, don't move, don't talk, don't think, it would be impossible for a human to become a banana.

The more mentally unstable a person is, the more their thoughts conflict. The more thought noise is created. It is only in a more stable mind, that thoughts are clearer, and do not conflict. The less 'noise' the stronger and faster the law of attraction can work.

The Law of Attraction fails because thoughts are no different than actions; they are things that exist.

By that logic I could say that by waving my arm a whole lot, it would somehow "affect" the weather on Mars and create life there.

Very illogical, and has no proof or thought behind it.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

The Law of Attraction fails because thoughts are no different than actions; they are things that exist.

By that logic I could say that by waving my arm a whole lot, it would somehow "affect" the weather on Mars and create life there.

Very illogical, and has no proof or thought behind it.

how is that even a logical analogy o_O thoughts and actions are two different things

how can you say it is illogical, and has no proof or thought behind it? when myself and many others have already used the law of attraction to better our lives? ITS WORKED FOR MANY ALREADY! why not try it for yourself before speaking, or thinking for that matter.

when everything is energy. when energy can never be destroyed, how can you view, thoughts, a form of energy so little? when energy is positive or negative, have you ever given any thought what type of energy you are?

have you not given any thought as to science showing the placebo affect and that it WORKS? why can a sugar pill do the same job as real medicine when the person believed it was medicine?

have you given any thought as to HOW the thought can affect the body on a biological level.

don't take the physics of consciousness so lightly.

Because you cannot disprove my analogy (Orpoint out how it doesn't make sense(I feel I should also point out that TLOA mainly plays off of people's misconception of "thought" and "mind". Nothing mystical or supernatural aobut it. But the play is the fact that people think thoughts can somehow "change the universe" or some other bullshit packaged with TLOA) I shall retain it.

Now, I will explain this once, so pay attention.

Are you paying attention?

There is a *monumental* difference between saying:

"If you think about, and really would like a bike-- The universe will give you a bike"

and saying

"If you set a goal such as attaining a bicycle, and push yourself toward that goal, given favorable circumnstance coupled with a good attitude-- You will be able to recieve the bicycle".

The first being the wishful-thought style presented in TLOA, the latter being simple goal setting and Karma (See Newton's... Third law? Yes, third law. Not anything "mystical" or out there, just energy and actions.).

So therefore TLOA fails.


Oh and I would LOVE to hear (Or see and/or hear) about these people's lives being changed through What is set down by TLOA verbatum.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Because you cannot disprove my analogy (Orpoint out how it doesn't make sense(I feel I should also point out that TLOA mainly plays off of people's misconception of "thought" and "mind". Nothing mystical or supernatural aobut it. But the play is the fact that people think thoughts can somehow "change the universe" or some other bullshit packaged with TLOA) I shall retain it.

Now, I will explain this once, so pay attention.

Are you paying attention?

There is a *monumental* difference between saying:

"If you think about, and really would like a bike-- The universe will give you a bike"

and saying

"If you set a goal such as attaining a bicycle, and push yourself toward that goal, given favorable circumnstance coupled with a good attitude-- You will be able to recieve the bicycle".

The first being the wishful-thought style presented in TLOA, the latter being simple goal setting and Karma (See Newton's... Third law? Yes, third law. Not anything "mystical" or out there, just energy and actions.).

So therefore TLOA fails.


Oh and I would LOVE to hear (Or see and/or hear) about these people's lives being changed through What is set down by TLOA verbatum.

Well this year I read that book the secret. I guided my ambition through it, and it seemed "super natural". My GPA went up from my freshman 2nd semester 3.2, to my sophomore 4.45. It was weird though because all I did was believe I could. In 9th grade I was a.. gangsta wanna be... but I studied several quantuam physics books, and started meditating. My life was transformed.

Its just the fact that you bow down to your superego. I wonder if its your sub-con?

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Because you cannot disprove my analogy (Orpoint out how it doesn't make sense(I feel I should also point out that TLOA mainly plays off of people's misconception of "thought" and "mind". Nothing mystical or supernatural aobut it. But the play is the fact that people think thoughts can somehow "change the universe" or some other bullshit packaged with TLOA) I shall retain it.

Now, I will explain this once, so pay attention.

Are you paying attention?

There is a *monumental* difference between saying:

"If you think about, and really would like a bike-- The universe will give you a bike"

and saying

"If you set a goal such as attaining a bicycle, and push yourself toward that goal, given favorable circumnstance coupled with a good attitude-- You will be able to recieve the bicycle".

The first being the wishful-thought style presented in TLOA, the latter being simple goal setting and Karma (See Newton's... Third law? Yes, third law. Not anything "mystical" or out there, just energy and actions.).

So therefore TLOA fails.


Oh and I would LOVE to hear (Or see and/or hear) about these people's lives being changed through What is set down by TLOA verbatum.

the problem is you are coming with this idea, that the universe magically sends you a bike in the first scenario. that one day you wake up, and POOF, theres a bike outside your bedroom.

the problem with the second scenario is, we are not always in a favorable circumstance to attain what we want. it doesn't matter how hard you try to achieve something, life can get in the way of hard work.

the law of attraction is not about magical things happening. its about attracting a reality towards yourself. now, heres the thing. reality isn't going to do anything magically for you either, not if you don't accept it.

imagine that in the first scenario the kid uses the law of attraction to get a bike. except he doesn't have money or parents to buy him a bike.

then one day, after using the law of attraction, some random guy offers the kid a job. a small job. the job gives him just enough money for a bike.

and what does the kid do? he says "no thanks"

so no bike.

he continues to do the law of attraction to attract a bike. and cycle repeats. new opportunities appear every week that lead towards - bike. each time, he denies each opportunity. until eventually, YEARS later, someone dies and he inherits a bike.

the law of attraction is complicated. it is very similar to your goal setting. the big difference is, the FAVORABLE CIRCUMSTANCE.

if your circumstance is unfavorable for attaining something you want, the LOA works around it. it negates it. it creates it.

************************

I used the LOA to help me get a particular job, a career job. The thing about this career job is, you gotta first start at the bottom, then work your way up. But you can only work your way up, if there is an opportunity to. And lately, those opportunities were slim.

After about a week, people I barely knew working in the field, had lunch with a manger from a different company. And they spoke on my behalf. Not only was the manager willing to hire me, but guaranteed that I will be allowed to work my way up. Everything was set. All I had to do, was fill out the paper work. And in a couple of months, my income would have more than tripled.

Sad thing was, the very same day I decided I didn't want to go into this career anymore. And told my acquaintances, "thanks! but no thanks.." they were really confused. I felt kinda bad too, that they took the time out to do this for me

the time it took the LOA to nearly land me a job with me doing virtually nothing *a career paying job* - two weeks. The time it took me without the LOA to land a job while struggling, sending applications, going from interview and interview, even breaking down and crying in tears at how miserable and poor I was with no job - eight months. for a job that drove me up the wall.

the day I said thanks but no thanks, I walked away from two jobs. my current crappier job, and the career paying job. instead, I felt it was time to focus on my artwork. so my thoughts were only on my artwork, and being an artist. so later on the day, I go to my art store, which I shop at every month. and the boss was like "whats up!" and I was like "just left my old job but im excited!"

so the boss hands me an application and hes like "well if you want a job just bring it back. 40% off all art supplies for employees!!"

I didn't come to him asking him for a job, he gave me a choice of whether or not I wanted to work for him. ps. they were already fully staffed, he did not need another employee.

that day I recognized I had all my thoughts on being an artist. and what do I get? a job where I get art supplies for dirt cheap. I didn't ask for this job. I accepted the job because I felt, this is one of those unpredictable conditions that the LOA brings to you. Go with it, see where it takes you.

I used the LOA to get me a car. I wanted that car so badly. I said it was mine. I imagined it and envisioned it as mine. The next day it was. My family was in shock that I bought a new car, or rather that I qualified. The dealers told me with my income level it was 'not likely' that I would get the car. My sister didn't understand how I got the new car, when she was making double the income and couldn't afford even half the car that I have today.

But thats only the tip of the ice-burg. That hardly explains the ten year struggle my family has had with cars. My struggle..well..what struggle. After a single day of saying "me want car" I got car.

I took the LOA to the next step. I started to envision a desirable future, as happening right now. And that was moving out and living with my friends in an awesome house. My friends live in another city however, several hours away. And were we to combine our incomes, we can't even afford an apartment. Thats why I thought it was a 'future'.

Within the week me and my friends were playing WoW and out of the blue while battling some monster she was like "btw my parents talked to me last night and they want to buy me a house. would you like to move in?"

..what?? what you'd say? @_@. and I realized, I wasn't ready to move to another city. it was supposed to be my future, not...now.

My friend was shocked as well. She said her parents popped the question so randomnly. They have never spoken to her about buying her a house before.

My thoughts IMMEDIATELY changed, and I no longer desired to move to another city right this second. And, well, her parents haven't seemed to bring up this house business again. But the point was, I had a very REAL opportunity, to live in a house, in another city with my friends. An opportunity, that is impossible were I to try to do it myself. the LOA doesn't need that desirable condition, it makes it happen one way or the other.

A little word of advice for all LOA newbs, use it for what you are ready to accept in your life. I backed off the LOA a bit until I understood fully why moving out right now was so shocking. And it helped me realize, I don't feel I should move out and leave my family when they are not the best of situations right now.

the LOA has another nice affect. it helps expose things in your psyche that are getting in the way of your desires. And keeps you focused, very focused on what is most important to you.

the "magic" is HOW it happens, not that it does happen. You don't have to wait for the desirable condition to make those goals come true. It's not about hard work. Its about accepting something into your life.

I see.

So then you admit that I am right.

Kthxbai

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

I see.

So then you admit that I am right.

Kthxbai

no..


yours is one of hard work

mine is not of physical hard work. but only mental hard work of believing and then ACCEPTING something into your life

very different

Oh okay.

So wait, the FSM exists? Fo' Reelz?

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Oh okay.

So wait, the FSM exists? Fo' Reelz?

1. no one believes in the FSM, its a joke to make fun of religion

2. law of attraction is about attracting a reality to you - the reality is already there for you to claim

3. it is not thought manifestation, that is something slightly different though very similar to LOA. but even in thought manifestation thinking about something that you know isn't real only creates it as something that, isn't real. and if someone thinks the FSM isn't real, that cancels with thoughts that it is because no one lives in their own little box