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    1. #301
      Nicotine Connoisseur bcomp's Avatar
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      Minervas. I'm not criticizing your English skills, purely to attack you. I'm pointing out that your confusing sentence structure make it extremely hard to figure out just what you're talking about. Though I speak and write decently in french, I would never post on a french philosophy board, simply because I don't feel I would be able to properly convey my ideas.

      At first is seemed like you were talking about the correlation of cause and effect. Now you say you're talking about "truth." I'm really not sure what you mean by that. Please be more clear.

      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      There can be no first cause of reality. If there was a first cause. It could only be every cause existing in an infinite chain of causes and effects. The effect would have to be the cause. And all those causes and effects would not be able to differ from the original cause. That is because nothing could be taken away or added to the original cause as it would be the only thing that could possibly exist. This means that you cannot define or conclude a cause or effect for anything as it will continually elude your intelligence.
      The underlined portion of your original statement is what I was discussing in my previous post.

      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      That's amature to understand more than this you need to know why it is just a correlation and not a ultimate cause of it.
      This is what I was talking about.

      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I never EVER stated that the effect of the first cause is the first cause. There is a major difference between the infinite original cause and then a finite first cause. I have already stated it does not exist as finite only. I was only talking about original cause which is that which sustains everything from beginning to end as the one and only within all causes and effects.
      When I was referring to "first cause" I was talking about the "infinite original cause."

      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      The finite first cause you have described as a beginning has a cause that must have initiated it. You cannot say it's a first cause. Besides this does not show anything other than the force which pushed the dominoes is correlated to the effect of the movement of the other dominoes. I am going the extra mile in clarifying this as I'm sure it's clear to all you have mistaken what I've written.
      This domino thought experiment is only a model to describe the first cause. To clarify, I do not assume that there is a force that pushes over the first domino, but that domino_1 falls on it's own accord, which makes it a first cause.

      Also thanks for insulting my intelligence.

      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      Numbers are an entirely different separate issue than the dimension of time and space in which the causes and effects interact with each other in a seamlessly connected way. We arn't talking about numbers but something which causes them. By introducing numbers as the main theme this eliminates the original theme and depth of the meaning reducing it to something more limited in a dimension below that which created it.
      Not really. They're a way of labeling amounts of space and time, so they're actually quite relevant in any dimension of space and time.

      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      Even though it is the one thing you have understood fairly you assume that I didn't know about it. A very serious underestimating assumption since everyone knows an effect is different from a cause.
      Please don't put words in my mouth. From your previous posts, it seemed like you were saying that the "original cause" effects itself in an infinite series, so I thereby assumed that, at least in this case, you were making the claim that the "original cause" is both cause and effect. I was only trying to point out that such a statement is quite paradoxical and ends up condensing to a single event. I really don't doubt your intelligence.

      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I cannot handle any more of this irrelevance. That is enough. It was a discussion between me and roller I was waiting for his next reply.

      Lastly I don't need you to tell me I am confusing or that my English is bad and I need to learn this and that better etc. I didn't ask you what you thought about me it's rude.

      I would normally thank you for your response except in this case it wasn't intended to help me so I'm not sure what to say to you other than please don't approach me with that attitude. You don't want to be like those others that post troll pictures in a juvenile stupor do you? Remain focused on the importance of listening carefully with respectful relevant feedback and you will do fine.
      Please... my argument is not irrelevant. Simply claiming it is proves nothing.

      When I told you your language skills were lacking, my intent was not malevolent or mocking. I was simply pointing out that it is very difficult to understand... I was not attempting to belittle you.

      If English isn't your first language, you might be picking up attitudes that aren't really there. I'm not sure why you brought up or insulted those previous posters.

      And lighten up a bit!

    2. #302
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      Bcomp this is the only way to deal with your latest responses other than ignoring it which is what I would normally do. Now and then it's nice to have an example of what happens when you don't ignore it. What does this say about what you have done with the genuine discussion when I have to quote simple stuff that I've already written to your responses again and again? Don't answer.


      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp View Post
      Minervas. I'm not criticizing your English skills, purely to attack you. I'm pointing out that your confusing sentence structure make it extremely hard to figure out just what you're talking about.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I don't need you to tell me I am confusing or that my English is bad and I need to learn this and that better etc. I didn't ask you what you thought about me it's rude.
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      Now you say you're talking about "truth." I'm really not sure what you mean by that
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      The topic is the truth
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      I'm not criticizing your English skills, purely to attack you.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I don't need you to tell me I am confusing or that my English is bad and I need to learn this and that better etc. I didn't ask you what you thought about me it's rude.
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      When I was referring to "first cause" I was talking about the "infinite original cause."
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      There is a major difference between the infinite original cause and then a finite first cause
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      When I told you your language skills were lacking, my intent was not malevolent or mocking.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I don't need you to tell me I am confusing or that my English is bad and I need to learn this and that better etc. I didn't ask you what you thought about me it's rude.
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      I do not assume that there is a force that pushes over the first domino, but that domino_1 falls on it's own accord, which makes it a first cause.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      The finite first cause you have described as a beginning has a cause that must have initiated it. You cannot say it's a first cause. Besides this does not show anything other than the force which pushed the dominoes is correlated to the effect of the movement of the other dominoes. I am going the extra mile in clarifying this as I'm sure it's clear to all you have mistaken what I've written.
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      They're a way of labeling amounts of space and time, so they're actually quite relevant in any dimension of space and time.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      Numbers are an entirely different separate issue than the dimension of time and space in which the causes and effects interact with each other in a seamlessly connected way. We arn't talking about numbers but something which causes them. By introducing numbers as the main theme this eliminates the original theme and depth of the meaning reducing it to something more limited in a dimension below that which created it. This is like me talking about a cube and you suggesting the dimensions make the square as the creator of the cube. No the 3 dimensional space is what I am involved with not the 2 dimensional field with the square. In the same way numbers are not the cause of what I am referring to. The could be said to be a dimension below cause and effect.

      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      I thereby assumed that, at least in this case, you were making the claim that the "original cause" is both cause and effect.
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      When I was referring to "first cause" I was talking about the "infinite original cause."
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      There is a major difference between the infinite original cause and then a finite first cause
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      I was simply pointing out that it is very difficult to understand... I was not attempting to belittle you.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I don't need you to tell me I am confusing or that my English is bad and I need to learn this and that better etc. I didn't ask you what you thought about me it's rude.

      I would normally thank you for your response except in this case it wasn't intended to help me so I'm not sure what to say to you other than please don't approach me with that attitude. You don't want to be like those others that post troll pictures in a juvenile stupor do you? Remain focused on the importance of listening carefully with respectful relevant feedback and you will do fine.
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      you might be picking up attitudes that aren't really there.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I don't need you to tell me I am confusing or that my English is bad and I need to learn this and that better etc. I didn't ask you what you thought about me it's rude.
      Quote Originally Posted by bcomp
      I'm not sure why you brought up or insulted those previous posters.
      Quote Originally Posted by MP
      I'm not sure what to say to you other than please don't approach me with that attitude. You don't want to be like those others that post troll pictures in a juvenile stupor do you? Remain focused on the importance of listening carefully with respectful relevant feedback and you will do fine.
      WOW. Notice how this person insists so heavily on the words attack, insult, mock, belittle, etc over and over. There is a real problem there and since I had to repeat myself so many times for something so clear it begs the question why? Why is there a need for having to clarify again and again the same simple thing to someone? Are they that incapable? What kind of person genuinely initiates such a need for clarification? Something is terribly wrong there. I'm not going to respond to this kind of nonsense anymore where I have to repeat myself. Now that I've given an example we know what to avoid.

    3. #303
      Nicotine Connoisseur bcomp's Avatar
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      Now you're just being offensive. Bye.

    4. #304
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      No the proof is in the pudding. Nice try and bye. I think you have offended me more than anything but lets leave that up to the readers and keep our opinions.

    5. #305
      Nicotine Connoisseur bcomp's Avatar
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      OMG WAIT. Are you a computer??? Is this just a giant Turing Test?!?!?!?! It would make SO MUCH SENSE!!! amiright?
      Last edited by bcomp; 06-26-2008 at 09:56 PM.

    6. #306
      Dream Worm Croneus's Avatar
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      For the universe to exist there must be at the core of things the simplest thought ever. To exist, or not. The universe as you percieve and as I percieve are two different ones. At times they may interact or collide in some way, they may mirror for much of their time. But they can never be the same except at the one brief moment where something, somewhere, somewhen, somehow said yes.
      Everyone knows what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, however, few are familiar with the North Vegas slogan: What happens in North Vegas will haunt your dreams forever.

    7. #307
      Member Crumbs's Avatar
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      Causality is trick of the mind to help us to make sense of the world. There are no causes or effects.

    8. #308
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      Quote Originally Posted by Croneus View Post
      For the universe to exist there must be at the core of things the simplest thought ever. To exist, or not. The universe as you percieve and as I percieve are two different ones. At times they may interact or collide in some way, they may mirror for much of their time. But they can never be the same except at the one brief moment where something, somewhere, somewhen, somehow said yes.
      yes.

      To be, or not to be: that is the question:
      Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
      The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
      Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
      And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
      No more; and by a sleep to say we end
      The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
      That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
      Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
      To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
      For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
      When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
      Must give us pause: there's the respect
      That makes calamity of so long life;
      For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
      The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
      The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
      The insolence of office and the spurns
      That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
      When he himself might his quietus make
      With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
      To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
      But that the dread of something after death,
      The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
      No traveller returns, puzzles the will
      And makes us rather bear those ills we have
      Than fly to others that we know not of?
      Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
      And thus the native hue of resolution
      Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
      And enterprises of great pith and moment
      With this regard their currents turn awry,
      And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
      The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
      Be all my sins remember'd.

      Actually, it's all just effect-lemniscate_cause-moebiusstrip.
      Haha; what did the 0 say to the 8?
      Last edited by InvisibleWoman; 07-01-2008 at 08:24 PM.

    9. #309
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      Quote Originally Posted by Crumbs View Post
      Causality is trick of the mind to help us to make sense of the world. There are no causes or effects.
      I think that there is causality, and that it is possible to determine seperate events on a macro-level. I think the essence of causality is necessity: A causes B because a is neccessary and sufficient for the instantiation of B.

      For instance take the example of a person holding a metal ball in the air, and letting go of it. The result is that the ball falls to the ground. Let's call letting go A, and falling to the ground B.

      Now, I think that it is safe to say that in every possible world in which the physical constraints and laws are the same, if A instantiates then B will also instantiate irrespective of past or present events.

      So, lets consider possible world W1, in which a twin of me, T, drops a metal ball in the same physical environment and governed by the same physical laws. Let us also consider that in this world events or history has unfolded differently: perhaps the twin of me, T had toast for breakfast that day whereas I had cereal - the difference can be as small as that, or as big as you want. In this scenario it is still intuitive to say that any instantiation of A would be followed by B: any time my twin drops the ball it would still fall to the ground.

      Now, if there were no such thing as causality, and if causality were simply a human perception of a 'set' determined happening there would be no guarantee that the ball would still fall to the ground after being dropped, because my twin ate toast for breakfast and I didn't, making the sum of all 'events' in the causal chain (or the 'happening' if you like) different.

      There are such things as seperate, distinct events, and these can be linked causally, allowing B to follow A even in worlds in which the causal history is different.

    10. #310
      THE anime nub :D What??Me??'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix View Post
      You can't get to the No part. As soon as you think that rubber is not a wheel. It must be something else. But then you have to ask if it isn't that. It must be something else. You are going around in a infinite circle telling me about the original cause.

      Ever herd of the divine proportion?

      You know i've seen that image before.... Can't for the life of me remember where. And all i can say about this thread is what it does to my head.... OWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWWWWWWWWWWW!
      By The way did you make this to confuse the cripe out of everyone? Everytime i think i get close I get more of the above (see the OW comment.)

      Ok Ok wait double edit I think i get it now. You mean to think outside the box and consider every dang thing possible even the ones that don't look possible at first. Am I right or am i right?
      Last edited by What??Me??; 07-09-2008 at 01:19 AM. Reason: Cause I iz unconfused!!!!!!!

      Quote Originally Posted by Portalboat View Post
      So, that means you'll have boobs bigger then all of theirs combined? Because all of them have pretty big boobs
      Quote Originally Posted by Mario92 View Post
      Now that I'm done shrieking like a little girl, this sounds like fun.

    11. #311
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    12. #312
      THE anime nub :D What??Me??'s Avatar
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      I liked the weird golf vid betterz! lolz



      Hey everyone! Now we know im right!!!!!!!! If I wasn't Minerva here would have slammed it in her post above. Lemme hear me say WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!! Oh yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh, I rock, go me, do the random man. (new dance move)
      Last edited by What??Me??; 07-10-2008 at 12:26 AM.

      Quote Originally Posted by Portalboat View Post
      So, that means you'll have boobs bigger then all of theirs combined? Because all of them have pretty big boobs
      Quote Originally Posted by Mario92 View Post
      Now that I'm done shrieking like a little girl, this sounds like fun.

    13. #313
      Nicotine Connoisseur bcomp's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix View Post
      Sort of like a second Babel, really. Interesting...

    14. #314
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      Hey everyone! Now we know im right!!!!!!!! If I wasn't Minerva here would have slammed it in her post above. Lemme hear me say WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!! Oh yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh, I rock, go me, do the random man. (new dance move)
      That's the spirit.








    15. #315
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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