Collective Consciousness- take off topic
This has been split away fron Xaqarias "Collective Consciousness" topic, rather than further deviate from his intended path of discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InvisibleWoman
Awareness, collective unconscious/conscious, Brahman; what preceedes self is what unites all entites and comes before the individual.
Consciousness (ego, self) nontheless exists.
Is the ultimate goal to abandon self, to deny that it is?
Yes ...and No... I will explain shortly
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xaqaria
I don't understand your question, partly because I don't agree with your premise and partly because I can't see how it pertains to the topic. I don't see how any of the concepts we are discussing can preceed any of the others since they do not exist in terms of a timeline in relation to each other, and also no one is currently arguing that one should abandon self or that it is an ultimate goal of anything.
I understand it without the slightest hesitation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xaqaria
The thing is, I've studied many of the same texts that you are referencing, and yet I still do not interpret them, or the world in the ways that you are. Personally, I would say Atman corresponds to our current understanding of awareness, and is the inner witness that we all have that experiences the world of appearances, where as Brahman is the collective consciousness that gives us the ability to consider that which we are aware of once we accept our ideas of the world through individual awareness as fabrication.
Studying them, sifting through them with the conceptual mind, is quite different than living them, seeing what they are talking about at work within yourself.
Quote:
Honestly, I would think by your name that you would believe that awareness and consciousness are two aspects of the same thing, based on the texts that you list.
True, everything is interconnected. Everything is all one, non dualistic in nature. However everything does work together with a certain degree of "mechanics" involved.
Just like a car, you can lose yourself in individual systems. Not being aware of the rest of the car you would not really get the picture of how the components themselves function in relationship to the whole of the car.
As you expand your awareness and then your conscious understanding of the whole car, you begin to see just how each sytem interacts and functions within the whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InvisibleWoman
Awareness, collective unconscious/conscious, Brahman; what preceedes self is what unites all entites and comes before the individual.
Consciousness (ego, self) nontheless exists.
This is directed towards both InvisibleWoman and Xaqaria...it is how I see all of this within my own experience , within my own Self.
Xaqaria, you may not be disposed to what I am about to say, but nonetheless..
Self and the individual always are, always were, and always will be. Such is beyond the confines of time. Time itself is contained within this One.
Self as such, has no opposite, no other. There is no need for consciousness to breakdown the view as such as all is One within the view, within the awareness. Therefore there is no thought of "I", no thought of "me" , no thought of "mine.
All there is , is a subtle feeling to the tune of Self, as if everything seen within the view is yourself without any driving need or urge to recognize as such. Nothing compelling to split up or differentiate.
As the existant universe expands and grows, as living things begin to take shape, the capacity for consciousness to arise grows. As physical life takes shape and evolves, the single pointed awareness is split off into the senses of the body, much like light is divided into individual colors when it goes through a prism.
The awareness shines through the living body, and as consciousness develops into higher and higher capacities for recognition, a certain self awareness takes shape. Such is an individualistic identifacation set apart from the whole, no longer recognizing the whole through its now limited view, or limited, divided, separated, perception. The newly formed consciousness merges with the awareness into a "seemingly" single structure. "Seemingly" , because the consciousness "hides" the truly independant nature of the awareness.
This totally cut off from the whole, individualistic perception, this individualistic indentity is what I call self(lower case s). It is the basis of the ego manifestation. It is an unavoidable by product of consciousness arising in living things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InvisibleWoman
Is the ultimate goal to abandon self, to deny that it is?
It is not to deny that it is, but rather to recognize it for what it is and see its limitations. See that it has its beginning and its ending. To recognize that consciousness is not what it( self) is, but that consciousness is the prize, the "spoils of war" that go to the victor.( Seismosaur inadvertantly pointed this out to me a while back)
"self" is born and self dies. If consciousness is left in control of the self, is left grounded in self, then consciousness also "dies" with the self. However, if Self ( uppercase s) reaches Self -awareness through the consciousness, ie becomes consciously aware of Self as Self, then there is the opportunity to re-ground the consciousness in Self rather than in the self. This is the heart of "enlightenment". To give consciousness continuance above and beyond the ego sense, that the consciousness can be allowed to continue to expand and grow. To reach higher and higher levels , gradually intertwining with the one pointed awareness. To Realize that every indiviudal consciousness as such will ultimately, in its yet own unique way find the same ONE destination in the end.
This is where it comes close to a "collective" consciousness. The point at which the consciousness merges or intertwines with the "collective awareness". But even then the consciousness is not truly collective as it is itself still uniquely individual in a way. Very difficult to put to words. What I have said thus far does not even begin to adequately or thoroughly communicate what is sitting in front of me in this view, in the moment.
