Thread: The problem of heaven.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

That's contradictory in nature then. If you have so much of A then you can't get B... but that doesn't mean A is bad, even though it prevents you from getting to B.

So make up your mind. FUCK, this is frustrating.

That doesn't mean A is all good either. Nuclear bomb -v- medical science that saves lives.

Originally Posted by Semja

That doesn't mean A is all good either. Nuclear bomb -v- medical science that saves lives.

And yet, considering how much we are reliant on A for the world around us, the very computers and internet we are on, I don't think one can simply dismiss it for something which may or may not exist. You say "Oh but nuclear bombs!" I say:

• Anaesthetics
• Hygiene
• Vaccinations & Medicine
• Electricity
• Electronics
• and on, and on..

And that is just to name a few. To be honest, Good and Bad are completely subjective terms, because objectively, there is no Good or Bad, only profit and loss. And we have certainly profited from all this knowledge.

I didn't make myself clear as you appear to agree with the point I was trying to put across. Not a bad thing, but perhaps it would make more sense if I worded it 'medical science that saves lives -v- nuclear bomb'.

By no means did I mean to imply that all that should be dismissed.

Originally Posted by Semja

I didn't make myself clear as you appear to agree with the point I was trying to put across. Not a bad thing, but perhaps it would make more sense if I worded it 'medical science that saves lives -v- nuclear bomb'.

By no means did I mean to imply that all that should be dismissed.

Okay fine, but my earlier point on the whole point against "Knowledge keeps you out of heaven" put forward by a couple of others remains. I mean, it is just illogical.

I have to admit I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat anyone. Whether "knowledge keeps you out of heaven" depends what your concept of heaven is.

If heaven is an actual place were the good guys deserve to go by rights then yes it is illogical. They are the good guys, they deserve to go there. It doesn't matter how clever they are.

If heaven is not an actual place but rather the ultimate stage of a spiritual evolution which is reached through consistent and long practice then could it reasonably be said that "knowledge keeps you out of heaven"?

Originally Posted by Semja

I have to admit I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat anyone. Whether "knowledge keeps you out of heaven" depends what your concept of heaven is.

If heaven is an actual place were the good guys deserve to go by rights then yes it is illogical. They are the good guys, they deserve to go there. It doesn't matter how clever they are.

If heaven is not an actual place but rather the ultimate stage of a spiritual evolution which is reached through consistent and long practice then could it reasonably be said that "knowledge keeps you out of heaven"?

First of all, why would someone spend so much time gaining knowledge (whatever the kind) in order to further his understanding of the universe and himself, and then have to throw that all away in order to reach heaven? Regardless of whether it is a place or state.

It is illogical in either case.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Just to note, on the issues on the whole dream-analogy, did you see me have a go at it? No, because the issue here is not me being able to think creatively enough, but on what a few keep asserting to me on how I must forgo logic and reason.

I hope this at least clarifies a couple of things.

LOL, I figured you had me on ignore.

Originally Posted by The Enterer

LOL, I figured you had me on ignore.

Not ignoring you or the argument, simply concentrating on the things that were being directed at me.

ETA: Also, it kind of shares the same sentiment I have on the matter, of which I'll quote Shakespeare for this:

Originally Posted by Shakespeare

To die; to sleep,
To sleep; perchance to dream, aye there's the rub
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Originally Posted by bluefinger

First of all, why would someone spend so much time gaining knowledge (whatever the kind) in order to further his understanding of the universe and himself, and then have to throw that all away in order to reach heaven? Regardless of whether it is a place or state.

It is illogical in either case.

Well, I'm not talking from experience, but I don't think one would have to throw it all away. Its the being stubborn and stuck in rigid ways of thinking about things, being so attached to those views whatever they are, the fear of letting them go and losing them forever, that blocks the way to heaven.

You might think of it as holding a coin, i.e. your knowledge, in your hand and letting it go. It falls to the floor.

I suggest that a better analogy would be if turn your hand over and then open your palm. You haven't thrown it away, you still have the coin, but you no longer hold on to it so tightly.

Originally Posted by Semja

Well, I'm not talking from experience, but I don't think one would have to throw it all away. Its the being stubborn and stuck in rigid ways of thinking about things, being so attached to those views whatever they are, the fear of letting them go and losing them forever, that blocks the way to heaven.

You might think of it as holding a coin, i.e. your knowledge, in your hand and letting it go. It falls to the floor.

I suggest that a better analogy would be if turn your hand over and then open your palm. You haven't thrown it away, you still have the coin, but you no longer hold on to it so tightly.

Then with the last analogy, it isn't really letting go and you don't really lose it, so it isn't really equivalent of throwing it away or letting go.

Originally Posted by bcomp

Oh sure... dark can't exist without light, a space can't be empty unless it can be full, something can't be dry unless it can be wet. Obviously. But this reasoning is derived from your observation of reality. All these examples come from inside "existence" as it were... how do you know the same thing applies outside of existence?

Existence is.

Non-existence is.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Then with the last analogy, it isn't really letting go and you don't really lose it, so it isn't really equivalent of throwing it away or letting go.

You have let go, but yes you keep hold of it, its still yours.

In the same way when dreaming we are certain that our dreams are real. We hang on stubbornly to that idea. Until the realisation dawns on us that we are in fact dreaming. We let go of the belief that we are awake and instead of losing something we actually gain increased awareness becoming lucid.

Originally Posted by Semja

You have let go, but yes you keep hold of it, its still yours.

In the same way when dreaming we are certain that our dreams are real. We hang on stubbornly to that idea. Until the realisation dawns on us that we are in fact dreaming. We let go of the belief that we are awake and instead of losing something we actually gain increased awareness becoming lucid.

It also can be done through objective reasoning though. In order to find out whether you are dreaming or not, you do a reality check where you test the reality to see if it is stable or not. If the test happens and the result is normal, then you are awake; if the result is wierd or not normal, then you can conclude that you are not awake. Knowledge is still key in order to determine whether you are dreaming or not. This also includes techniques for inducing the lucid dreams in the first.

I would say that you just temporarily let go of knowledge, you can't just forget everything you've learned. It's just another way of thinking about stuff that's not scientifically based. You can always think scientifically again after thinking non-scientifically. Just don't limit yourself to just scientific reasoning.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

It also can be done through objective reasoning though. In order to find out whether you are dreaming or not, you do a reality check where you test the reality to see if it is stable or not. If the test happens and the result is normal, then you are awake; if the result is wierd or not normal, then you can conclude that you are not awake. Knowledge is still key in order to determine whether you are dreaming or not. This also includes techniques for inducing the lucid dreams in the first.

Absolutely, methods and techniques are extremely useful on the journey to your goal. In fact they are necessary for most of us. But, to use another analogy, if I stayed with the plane and didn't leave it behind me once I had reached my destination I wouldn't be able to enjoy my holiday I had worked hard for. I'd miss out on cheap beer, cheap cigarettes, and cheap wo...

Those methods, that knowledge, help you to let go of misguided concepts and see things for what they are. Ultimately they too need to be let go of. At the risk of repeating myself, letting go isn't losing something but seeing it, in a new light, as it really is.

Coming back to the original point, thats what I understand to be the reason why a camel would more easily fit through the eye of a needle than would a rich [with worldy knowledge] man enter heaven. He has learnt to see things in a very particular way and has a lot of things to let go.

Originally Posted by Semja

Absolutely, methods and techniques are extremely useful on the journey to your goal. In fact they are necessary for most of us. But, to use another analogy, if I stayed with the plane and didn't leave it behind me once I had reached my destination I wouldn't be able to enjoy my holiday I had worked hard for. I'd miss out on cheap beer, cheap cigarettes, and cheap wo...

Those methods, that knowledge, help you to let go of misguided concepts and see things for what they are. Ultimately they too need to be let go of. At the risk of repeating myself, letting go isn't losing something but seeing it, in a new light, as it really is.

Coming back to the original point, thats what I understand to be the reason why a camel would more easily fit through the eye of a needle than would a rich [with worldy knowledge] man enter heaven. He has learnt to see things in a very particular way and has a lot of things to let go.

To be honest, in order for one to see whether a concept is misguided or not, one must use scepticism and analysis.

Also, your analogy of getting to the destination is not entirely correct, because a holiday itself is a journey, albeit a relaxing or adventurous one. Besides, like I've said much earlier in the thread, regardless of whether heaven exists or not, there is one destination all will come to is death. It shouldn't matter about what lies after that, because we have no way of knowing, subjectively or objectively.

What matters is not reaching the destination, but the journey itself. Why? Even if the destination is heaven, you might never reach that destination, so focusing on the journey is far better than focusing solely on the destination.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Besides, like I've said much earlier in the thread, regardless of whether heaven exists or not, there is one destination all will come to is death. It shouldn't matter about what lies after that, because we have no way of knowing, subjectively or objectively.

I admit, I am heavily influenced by Buddhism. I do therefore believe, and it is only a belief, in life after death. I also believe that there is a way of knowing that heaven, or whatever it is named, exists before death and that way is what we have been discussing. My belief is that it is completely normal but we are blinded to that reality. The only way to find out is by taking, as you say, scepticism and analysis all the way. Two people who blindly believed in one or the other without testing it out and finding out for themselves would be just as bad as each other right?

I just remembered a Bruce Lee quote relating to techniques etc. and letting go:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lee

It's like a finger pointing to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory.

Do you believe that heaven is a place where your soul actually travels to, out of your body, or just a state of mind that you enter once you die? (assuming it exists)

Originally Posted by MysticFate

Do you believe that heaven is a place where your soul actually travels to, out of your body, or just a state of mind that you enter once you die? (assuming it exists)

I would say its both at the same time.

let's imagine the spiritual world, and let's imagine its more amazing than anything we can imagine - thus we humans call this amazing spiritual reality, heaven. but its really a human concept and a human label.

when in reality, the spiritual world is a part of the universe and expands like the universe, and in its expansion another layer was added onto the spiritual reality. the physical reality. the physical reality stems from the spiritual, it is apart of the spiritual reality. they are NOT separate.

humans have labeled that spiritual reality - heaven. however, in 'heaven', you can look down at earth and see that the earth is just as much apart of 'heaven' as everything else in the universe. heaven is no longer this magical place in the sky. it is just the greater reality - a reality where you recognize and are one with the whole

and in the whole, you can see that there are places you can call paradise, and places you can call a disaster. but both places are connected, so you can not ignore the disaster zone. those disaster areas are like infected with a disease, and really, the whole is in danger if these infected areas are not cured. we can look at the earth as an example. now today we can understand how if we don't watch our actions, we can affect the entire world. I mean, if we wanted, we could destroy earth.

the balance of good and evil is a concept created by the human ego

the reality is there is a balance of the feminine and masculine that drives the universe and its forces, the expanding and contracting. both are naturally good.

so these infected areas, spiritually speaking, are not apart of the balance of the universe. if they are not cured - they will be wiped out of existence. This is not the wrath of God, but self preservation of a living conscious universe. you can not leave a wound unattended and infected and think nothing will happen.

earth is one of those places - its infected

major religions have talked about earth being a fallen place, a place of sins, evil or illusions and unreality. and that the goal of the human is to either buy your way into heaven or escape it

well, thats not the entire picture

the real goal of humanity is to bring 'heaven' to earth, by curing the earth of its infection. So that earth can always exist, so that humanity can always live on, otherwise, its really doomsday if we continue to become more and more of a disease.

this is a difficult task because, well, lets be honest, we are the ones infecting the earth. We can't point our fingers at some monster. To bring heaven to earth is to ask us to change who we are, change our ways, abandon our hopelessness and apathy, and become a compassionate race. what one can do, everyone can do. and there are amazing humans out there who have proven, that yes a human can be a completely compassionate creature. Jesus and Buddha alike. Its not impossible. We can do what they have done.

but what about diseases and natural disasters on earth? don't these things cause suffering and aren't these things out of our control?

my story, imaginary if you like, is about to get stranger. how can humanity manifest heaven on earth if we are not in control of the natural forces?

well, according to this story, we are. we do control the weather, and natural disasters. here is where the mental state comes in. the mental state is really the spiritual. they are one and the same. the physical - stems from the spiritual. what this means is - every physical thing is first created on the spiritual or mental realm.

the mass of human consciousness, which is a spiritual power, manifests itself as physical conditions in the world. if the mass of human consciousness reaches a critical, something critical and catastrophic will happen.all human suffering, is created by the mass of human consciousness. we have created our own suffering, with our own thoughts. bad things happen because we have bad thoughts.

for humanity to change and to create heaven on earth - its our mental state of being that has to change. this is a state of being that is best taught by Buddhism. in this mental state, you can say you are in 'heaven', because you have achieved a level of oneness. one with the universe or God, you can now experience a joy and a bliss that the majority of the universe is experiencing.

it is necessary for humanity to be in this state to experience heaven, and to create heaven on earth. if everyone was as compassionate as Buddha or Jesus, the world really would be a different place. An alien visiting earth, who's planet is at war would even go so far as to call earth paradise. This is why heaven is more of a mental state than a physical place.

But when you understand places are created by conscious beings, than conscious beings who are in the state of heaven, create a paradise. It's important to remember, that the mental state comes before the physical place can manifest.

what happens then in this story, to people who die and were not in that state of being? well, they don't exactly reach heaven by its truest definition, oneness with the universe - or oneness with God. Christians may think they have bought their way into heaven. But Jesus himself says that only through the Christ can you come onto God, be one with God. What does Jesus say Christ is? It is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

is the Way, the Truth and the Life something you place on a pedestal to worship? or something you accept, do and become? Christ is a mental state of being, not a person to be placed on a pedestal. Thats why it is said, let the mind that is in Jesus be in you. And this mind, this state of being is also a state of which Buddha taught.

this is why heaven is first a mental state, but in this mental state, you do and will visit amazing places.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Existence is.

Non-existence is.

"Is" implies existence. Unless maybe you looked it up in the dictionary of fail...

Non-existence cannot be, because if it were, it would not be.

Oh Blue, what I was saying about you being to scientifically concerned is sort of like what Semja's saying... except he's saying it better, really. You seem too focused on the logical proof of heaven than the grand idea. You're not really a naturalist as much as a "physicalist" (if that's an actual -ism...) which is totally fine... but the supernatural doesn't fit in the physical realm, which is why it's so easily disproved.

Let's say I'm a caveman in 9000 B.C. and I just invented a ruler and the concept of length. Now I go around measuring everything with all the other smart cavemen, then someone asks me "what is the temperature on the moon?" Well how should I know? What's a "temperature" anyway? The idea of temperature, let alone that of the moon, is baffling to me and my measuring friends. We hold our rulers up to the moon for a few minutes and determine that the moon is 3 inches long.

Since my people haven't progressed to a technological age where we can launch probes to the moon to test the temperature, I'm at a loss to discover how hot or cold it is on the surface of that inconsistent orb. Hell... I don't even know it is an orb; I think it's a circle pasted to the big blue bowl of the sky (along with all those fireflies ). If I'm simply thinking in the realm of my meter stick... I can never understand the problem.

From here I can take two roads:
1.) Say that "temperature" is bunk because it can't be measured - it's just a subjective feeling after all - and say that it couldn't even be measure on the moon because the moon is just a circle in the sky we'll never reach so the whole ordeal is pointless... we cavemen should just enjoy our lives and not appease the idea of moons with temperatures.
2.) Ponder the concept of a moon that has a surface like our own, though it is far away, and that it is possibly different. There definitely is temperature, I feel it (though perhaps differently from other people) and if the moon has a surface, surely it has temperature. Beyond that I have to wonder... what is the moon? What will it feel like? Is anyone else there? Does it exist at all? But I get to wonder.

It's natural for man to be curious... and I don't think it's fair to yourself to constrain yourself with science. But hey... whatever floats your boat.

I'm just saying... if you're going to discuss heaven, you should put down your ruler, because it's really not applicable. IMO 'course.

Originally Posted by bcomp

Oh Blue, what I was saying about you being to scientifically concerned is sort of like what Semja's saying... except he's saying it better, really. You seem too focused on the logical proof of heaven than the grand idea. You're not really a naturalist as much as a "physicalist" (if that's an actual -ism...) which is totally fine... but the supernatural doesn't fit in the physical realm, which is why it's so easily disproved.

Let's say I'm a caveman in 9000 B.C. and I just invented a ruler and the concept of length. Now I go around measuring everything with all the other smart cavemen, then someone asks me "what is the temperature on the moon?" Well how should I know? What's a "temperature" anyway? The idea of temperature, let alone that of the moon, is baffling to me and my measuring friends. We hold our rulers up to the moon for a few minutes and determine that the moon is 3 inches long.

Since my people haven't progressed to a technological age where we can launch probes to the moon to test the temperature, I'm at a loss to discover how hot or cold it is on the surface of that inconsistent orb. Hell... I don't even know it is an orb; I think it's a circle pasted to the big blue bowl of the sky (along with all those fireflies ). If I'm simply thinking in the realm of my meter stick... I can never understand the problem.

From here I can take two roads:
1.) Say that "temperature" is bunk because it can't be measured - it's just a subjective feeling after all - and say that it couldn't even be measure on the moon because the moon is just a circle in the sky we'll never reach so the whole ordeal is pointless... we cavemen should just enjoy our lives and not appease the idea of moons with temperatures.
2.) Ponder the concept of a moon that has a surface like our own, though it is far away, and that it is possibly different. There definitely is temperature, I feel it (though perhaps differently from other people) and if the moon has a surface, surely it has temperature. Beyond that I have to wonder... what is the moon? What will it feel like? Is anyone else there? Does it exist at all? But I get to wonder.

It's natural for man to be curious... and I don't think it's fair to yourself to constrain yourself with science. But hey... whatever floats your boat.

I'm just saying... if you're going to discuss heaven, you should put down your ruler, because it's really not applicable. IMO 'course.

Constrain myself with Science? Oh for fuck's sake... this is infuriating. Fuck this shit, seriously. "Oh don't limit yourself" or "You must let go of the ego" or whatever bullshit is shoved down my throat.

I fucking explained my position many times before in this thread, and yet the analytical approach is dismissed because it doesn't quite fit into your view. Let it go? Err no. I am fully capable of discussing heaven, I just took a different approach to the rest of you, and it is just as valid as the rest of your arguments.

Bah... fuck this, I'm just gonna go onto Age of Conan and brutally murder some mobs. At least on there I can see my effort being worth something...

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Constrain myself with Science? Oh for fuck's sake... this is infuriating. Fuck this shit, seriously. "Oh don't limit yourself" or "You must let go of the ego" or whatever bullshit is shoved down my throat.

I fucking explained my position many times before in this thread, and yet the analytical approach is dismissed because it doesn't quite fit into your view. Let it go? Err no. I am fully capable of discussing heaven, I just took a different approach to the rest of you, and it is just as valid as the rest of your arguments.

Bah... fuck this, I'm just gonna go onto Age of Conan and brutally murder some mobs. At least on there I can see my effort being worth something...

Ah man. I'm not saying it's limiting or it's bad or whatever... I'm just saying that it can't explain heaven. Plain and simple. It's not just a different ballgame, it's not even a fuckin' sport. You're bringing a baseball bat to a political debate... you'll shut the other guy up, but you won't get any votes.

Science has it's place, as does everything in the natural world, but it's not "all-encompassing." It's easy to stick to because it's totally objective and you can't really argue with it... but it still fails to explain many things. Like heaven. And art. And true love. Subjectivity is part of being human, and to deny it's existence is to loose a part of what makes us... us.

Your effort isn't worthless. I'd hate to get in a scientific debate over something, because you'd totally slaughter me I'm sure. I just think you're trying to hard to prove a trivial point of view. This isn't any of that "let go of your ego" bull shit because I think having a big ego is great (as long as it's not TOO big of course ha). Just don't see this as a personal attack or anything... I mean it as advice.

Originally Posted by bcomp

Ah man. I'm not saying it's limiting or it's bad or whatever... I'm just saying that it can't explain heaven. Plain and simple. It's not just a different ballgame, it's not even a fuckin' sport. You're bringing a baseball bat to a political debate... you'll shut the other guy up, but you won't get any votes.

Science has it's place, as does everything in the natural world, but it's not "all-encompassing." It's easy to stick to because it's totally objective and you can't really argue with it... but it still fails to explain many things. Like heaven. And art. And true love. Subjectivity is part of being human, and to deny it's existence is to loose a part of what makes us... us.

Your effort isn't worthless. I'd hate to get in a scientific debate over something, because you'd totally slaughter me I'm sure. I just think you're trying to hard to prove a trivial point of view. This isn't any of that "let go of your ego" bull shit because I think having a big ego is great (as long as it's not TOO big of course ha). Just don't see this as a personal attack or anything... I mean it as advice.

For goodness sake though... I said I like to keep the subjective separate from the objective, as I have said before. Two different things, yes, but one I cannot trust for answers and the other I can. I can still enjoy both; I simply don't rely on the subjective to form all the knowledge I possess.

You give me this 'advice', but it's like my earlier posts clarifying my position has been forgotten, which is why I was disheartened. It may not be a personal attack, but it still annoyed the fuck out of me.

I mean I enjoy music, art, a good book, etc. I understand the subjective, but I also understand the objective. Hell, I even have plenty of moments when reality itself seems surreal and fuzzy around the edges. I just don't attribute these experiences to anything more than a somewhat buzzed out mind or me being in a contemplative state.

Like I said to syzygy, one may have all these similar experiences, except because of their subjective nature, will come to their own conclusions about them, and these conclusions might not even include the whole spirituality thing. A concept of heaven would be in the exact same situation. Some will embrace it, some like me will reject it, for all sorts of reasons on both sides. And yet, all will be correct in their assumptions, and also all would be wrong. The subjective is not reliable for anything concrete in definition.

Anyways, I have mobs to murder in Age of Conan... gotta loot their bodies for coin and gain experience from slaughtering hundreds. And then when I can't carry more, I shall to the nearest town, hand in all the loot for more coin and any completed quests for rewards... only to repeat the process again so I can officially become awesome. Pics only posted on request.