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    1. #26
      ... Michael's Avatar
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      perfect is like a synonym for impossible... even though the words are also kind of opposite. but yea, that's why I think the world isn't perfect.

      perfect isn't just being complete. My car is complete, but it has a messed up cv boot so it isn't perfect.

      ran outta ideas

    2. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by RooJ View Post
      Ah, well I see little to support the assumption that such a perfection, somehow surviving independent of consciousness, and conveniently unguessable and beyond conceptualization, exists.
      It is not an assumption.

      What do you mean by "somehow surviving independent of consciousness"? Does the Universe need to survive? What's stopping it?

      Quote Originally Posted by RooJ View Post
      I wonder what convinces you such a divine perfection exists? Bearing in mind I speak English and not riddle or poem like some on here
      Perfection is the revelation of abandoning the ego's illusions. The ego/mind distorts the reality it was created with, as a survival mechanism. Surrendering (dropping) the ego's hold on your life brings True happiness, which has always been true.

      Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
      perfect is like a synonym for impossible... even though the words are also kind of opposite. but yea, that's why I think the world isn't perfect.

      perfect isn't just being complete. My car is complete, but it has a messed up cv boot so it isn't perfect.

      ran outta ideas
      The ego cannot understand Perfection; it is the very mechanism which "creates" imperfections (which are illusions).

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Yes, what Is - just that. As it Is.

      Is.


      A seed is a Perfect seed; a sprout is a Perfect sprout; a flower blooming is a Perfect bloom; a dead, shriveled flower is a Perfect dead shriveled flower. All objects and things are Perfect sculptures. That wardrobe is Perfect; Perfect woodcut; Perfect nails; inside it are Perfect clothes... A trash can is Perfect; Perfectly dirty; filled with Perfectly half eaten food; Perfectly growing bacteria. A Perfect weed has Perfectly died or been nibbled on by a caterpillar etc. "Flaws" were products of the mind; hence all the opinions were different...

    3. #28
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by RooJ View Post
      Ah, well I see little to support the assumption that such a perfection, somehow surviving independent of consciousness, and conveniently unguessable and beyond conceptualization, exists.

      I wonder what convinces you such a divine perfection exists? Bearing in mind I speak English and not riddle or poem like some on here
      If you change yourself, your concept of perfection will change too. You might disagree now, but after changing yourself enough, you will agree that the world is perfect.

      I agree perfection doesn't really exist, but at the same time it is very real and does exist in your mind. We will not reach ultimate happiness until we reach this perfection, this is how your mind works. Think about that.. how your own mind limits you from experiencing ultimate happiness. Are you just gonna let your mind do that to you?!

      Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds. -Bob Marley

      If you want to know how to gain mastery over your mind, read the link in my signature. It's not written in riddles, but in plain understandable english. It's the most interesting philosophical work I've read in my life.. you need to read it all in order to understand the whole tho.
      "Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina

    4. #29
      FreeSpirit RooJ's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really
      Perfection is the revelation of abandoning the ego's illusions. The ego/mind distorts the reality it was created with, as a survival mechanism. Surrendering (dropping) the ego's hold on your life brings True happiness, which has always been true.
      ....
      The ego cannot understand Perfection; it is the very mechanism which "creates" imperfections (which are illusions).
      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba
      I agree perfection doesn't really exist, but at the same time it is very real and does exist in your mind. We will not reach ultimate happiness until we reach this perfection, this is how your mind works. Think about that.. how your own mind limits you from experiencing ultimate happiness. Are you just gonna let your mind do that to you?!
      I understand exactly where you're coming from as far as the mind is concerned, i take somewhat of a buddhist view on the mind myself, i tend to practice acceptance and mindfullness etc, and through these understand the workings of the ego fairly well.

      But the difference is I practice acceptance of a world that isnt perfect, the goal for me isnt to convince myself that everything is perfect, but to accept that the world isnt perfect and remain happy anyway. In this state you can actively change things that need changing, such as world poverty, murder and the like because you understand that such things as child rape, cruelty to animals and other suffering isnt perfection. But at the same time you accept that these things exist and through acceptance find that they dont influence the calmness of your mind.
      Essentially you're not taking the imperfections of life onboard like mental baggage, or striving to change the world around you to your own views of perfection, because you realise that everyones views of perfection are different, instead you realise true perfection doesnt exist, and simply accept what does without striving to label it.

    5. #30
      Strate up Gaysta
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      "This world is perfect. How the world is now is the only way it could have been."

      This very well one of the most unfounded, baseless statements I have heard.

    6. #31
      ex-redhat ClouD's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by TransientOcclusion View Post
      "This world is perfect. How the world is now is the only way it could have been."

      This very well one of the most unfounded, baseless statements I have heard.
      This world is perfect. How the world is now is how the world is now.

      Chance is an illusion.

      Nothing is determined, existence is change.
      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by ClouD View Post
      This world is perfect. How the world is now is how the world is now.

      Chance is an illusion.

      Nothing is determined, existence is change.
      Define the paramaters of "perfect".

    8. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by TransientOcclusion View Post
      Define the paramaters of "perfect".
      This Perfection is beyond definition, and the limitations of parameters.

      Is.

    9. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      This Perfection is beyond definition, and the limitations of parameters.

      Is.
      Then make up another word for it. Don't plaguarize other people's words because you aren't creative enough to think of a new word.

    10. #35
      ex-redhat ClouD's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by TransientOcclusion View Post
      Then make up another word for it. Don't plaguarize other people's words because you aren't creative enough to think of a new word.
      Rather, stop speaking.

      Hypocrisy 1.01 - Learn When to Spot It!
      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

    11. #36
      Member Scatterbrain's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by RooJ View Post
      Perfection is a man made concept, it's subjective and doesn't exist outside of the mind. There's no such thing as universal perfection, only our individual, and very likely differing, opinions on it. Therefore you can't claim the universe is perfect for everyone, only for yourself.
      Win, I award you 1439 experience points and 500 gold.
      - Are you an idiot?
      - No sir, I'm a dreamer.

    12. #37
      The Reluctant Minion Brainchild's Avatar
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      Nothing's wrong with the world. It's the inner-worlds of most folks that need power-washing and a new coat of paint. I think too many people are way too hard on themselves. They try as much as possible to destroy the real-person (Atman, soul, essence, true-self, innate power; take your pick) out of nurtured shame and disgust. That's how you end up with people who are religious but not spiritual (not caressing and loving the inner-world). That's like being on a rigorous workout plan to lose weight while eating three double-cheeseburger meals a day. You'll feel sick inside and get fed-up with following the plan you've chosen to better yourself.

      Oh and please don't get me wrong. Essentially, my views are agnostic. I don't know if the supernatural stuff holds any water. I'm actually leaning toward the idea that the stuff is bogus. But what isn't bogus, however, is that we're all looking for something or someway to fulfill ourselves. Gods and angels and demons are all archetypes of each of our personalities and cultivation of aspects of yourself is easier when you have a model to go off of.
      Last edited by Brainchild; 08-22-2008 at 01:02 AM.
      Tat Tvam Asi.

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    13. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by TransientOcclusion View Post
      Then make up another word for it. Don't plaguarize other people's words because you aren't creative enough to think of a new word.
      lol

      (ineffable)

      Quote Originally Posted by ClouD View Post
      Rather, stop speaking.

    14. #39
      D.V. Editor-in-Chief Original Poster's Avatar
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      I forget who sai it original but it went like this: This is the best of all possible worlds.

      Think about that.

      Everything works out in the end, sometimes even badly.


    15. #40
      ex-redhat ClouD's Avatar
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      This is. Consider that.

      Then drop it so that you may just be.

      Just
      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

    16. #41
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omnius Deus View Post
      I forget who sai it original but it went like this: This is the best of all possible worlds.

      Think about that.
      Lets say This exact same world, minus scissors in that plastic packaging that you can only open with scissors? That would be a better world, in just about every definition.

      Then again, definitions of 'perfect' are vague, and at most nothing but a definition, a man-made concept. It's the same as the words good, nice, beautiful, sweet, cold and wack. Some people like to repeat the word 'perfect' as a mantra, a magical word explaining everything you apply it to. They never bother to define the word. The world isn't any more as 'perfect' as possible as it is as 'nice' as possible or as 'wack' as possible.

      Also, the whole confusing determinism with the ambiguous word 'perfect'... it's just to silly for words. - Gosh, everything is determined, lets call the world 'solid', yeaaaa, it's one solid world. And 'solid', man, that sounds cool, doesn't it? I should totally say that, man, just let go of your ego, 'coz the world is solid, yeaaaaaa. It doens't matter it's a nonsensical word I never reflect on, it just feels good to live in a world of pseudo-scientific theories I made up stoned. /end impression/
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    17. #42
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Neruo View Post
      Lets say This exact same world, minus scissors in that plastic packaging that you can only open with scissors? That would be a better world, in just about every definition.
      Hahaha.. I bet those really exist, but scissors without plastic packaging exist too

      Then again, definitions of 'perfect' are vague, and at most nothing but a definition, a man-made concept. It's the same as the words good, nice, beautiful, sweet, cold and wack. Some people like to repeat the word 'perfect' as a mantra, a magical word explaining everything you apply it to. They never bother to define the word. The world isn't any more as 'perfect' as possible as it is as 'nice' as possible or as 'wack' as possible.

      Also, the whole confusing determinism with the ambiguous word 'perfect'... it's just to silly for words. - Gosh, everything is determined, lets call the world 'solid', yeaaaa, it's one solid world. And 'solid', man, that sounds cool, doesn't it? I should totally say that, man, just let go of your ego, 'coz the world is solid, yeaaaaaa. It doens't matter it's a nonsensical word I never reflect on, it just feels good to live in a world of pseudo-scientific theories I made up stoned. /end impression/
      I understand what you mean, but my point was, if you believe in evolution, then the ways how things went, were the only possible way they could have gone. So what's the point in feeling sad or be angry about this world not being perfect, because this is the only possible world we can have on the way to perfect? So in every definition, this world is already perfect.

      We evolve from animals to humans to God. We don't instantly became humans from apes. People who don't realize this are the people who complain about the world. Have patience, you can't expect apes to instantly magicly turn into true human beings. Evolution takes time. Evolution is not magic.

      Everyone who claims the world isn't perfect, expects that evolution happens in a fingersnap... be realistic.. evolution takes time.

      There's always a better way to do things, the definition of perfection includes perfection to the infinite. If you can see this, you can see this world is already perfect, it just gets more and more perfect each day, to the infinite. The only reason why we think this world is not perfect, is because we can come up with a better way to do things. But this better way to do things WILL manifest itself over time, no matter what. This is called evolution... denying perfection is denying evolution.
      Last edited by ChaybaChayba; 08-25-2008 at 08:26 AM.
      "Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina

    18. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      This Perfection is beyond definition, and the limitations of parameters.
      Stop talking about it then.

    19. #44
      ex-redhat ClouD's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omicron View Post
      Stop talking about it then.
      Bzzzz

      Listen to the man boy fly, really,
      or swat it and watch it bleed.

      Either way, perfection is described every single moment.
      We are living, breathing, talking and expressing perfection.

      What else can possibly exist but perfection.
      You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light.

    20. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Omicron View Post
      Stop talking about it then.
      You must have missed what I have said in this thread. Such irony; we can only talk about things.

      Quote Originally Posted by ClouD View Post
      Bzzzz

      Listen to the man boy fly, really,
      or swat it and watch it bleed.

      Either way, perfection is described every single moment.
      We are living, breathing, talking and expressing perfection.

      What else can possibly exist but perfection.
      Yes... it's stunning...

      Chaos is what the Cosmos looks like to a confused mind...

      Perhaps if we run out into the world with no shoes on and a bucket on our head, we will then suddenly think Perfection is not real?

    21. #46
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      Hahaha.. I bet those really exist, but scissors without plastic packaging exist too
      They do, and it a perfect world they shouldn't. Why couldn't there be a world, for instance in a parallel universe of some sort, or just a different universe that might occur after this one 'crunches' and bangs again with different parameters (some physics theory).

      I understand what you mean, but my point was, if you believe in evolution, then the ways how things went, were the only possible way they could have gone. So what's the point in feeling sad or be angry about this world not being perfect, because this is the only possible world we can have on the way to perfect? So in every definition, this world is already perfect.
      No, not really. There is a difference between determinism and perfection. I myself am deterministic: I say everything has but one way of happening, and my choices and actions, as everyone else's, are illusions. I still call your perfection-theory bullshit. Perfection is still a word. Words are in our minds. When I think of a perfect world, I think of one where there for one is no world hunger (and no blatantly stupid people plz). That is what perfection means. It doesn't mean "the way it is now and the way it will be". Just because our world is in a way unchangeable in it's course does in no way mean you have to apply a positive connotation to it. Positive connotations, our evolution reserved for puppies, candy and children's laughter. Dying children in Africa with flies on them arn't perfect. They are bound to be there. A thousand years ago there was no other way for events to happen than to cause this thousand years later, so? What does perfection has to do with that? Why not chance "perfect" with "set". Or like I said, solid. REALLY, why not?

      Doesn't sound so much fun? Is that it? You want to say 'Oooowwww, the world is so peeeerfect' ^_______^ that's just delusional.

      We evolve from animals to humans to God. We don't instantly became humans from apes. People who don't realize this are the people who complain about the world. Have patience, you can't expect apes to instantly magicly turn into true human beings. Evolution takes time. Evolution is not magic.
      What? Did I accidentally brought my wizard hat and wand to my previous post? When did anyone say evolution was magic?

      Also, if you think evolution is a 'ladder only up' to a 'clear, defined or at least certain but unknow, goal' you really don't understand evolution. We are not going to evolve to 'god'. Evolution is no concious process with a goal. Evolution is the process were stuff that survives keeps on surviving. That's all. No godly stuff there, just matter crawling around. (Awesomely hilarious matter sometimes, but nothing devine.)

      edit: Oh yeah, read up on how evolution really works. Read some Dawkins or something. Also read the God Delusion. Just cross out "god" and put "new age evolving-to-gods/perfection-theory" in those gaps

      Everyone who claims the world isn't perfect, expects that evolution happens in a fingersnap... be realistic.. evolution takes time.

      There's always a better way to do things, the definition of perfection includes perfection to the infinite. If you can see this, you can see this world is already perfect, it just gets more and more perfect each day, to the infinite. The only reason why we think this world is not perfect, is because we can come up with a better way to do things. But this better way to do things WILL manifest itself over time, no matter what. This is called evolution... denying perfection is denying evolution.
      Big fat lol at contradiction. It's perfect! And getting perfecter every day! There is a reason 'perfecter' doesn't exist, it is self-refuting. Especially in your seemingly metaphysical nonsense theory.

      Jesus, you are really waiting for the 'time till we evolve into gods'. As the religious nuts waiting for their saviour, the alien-conspiracy nuts to be taken to Pluto, and the astrology nuts waiting for their divine faith to unwind as big fat balls of flaming gas billions of miles away 'told them so'.
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    22. #47
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      What the hell is up with you douches. Seriously half the people in this thread should be shipped off to Zimbabwe.

    23. #48
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Neruo View Post
      Jesus, you are really waiting for the 'time till we evolve into gods'.
      No, I'm waiting for the rest of the humans to evolve into God, or better said, to realize they are God.. I'm already there. So was Jesus..

      Btw Xei, you already posted those pics. Those pics are a direct result of our free will. You want free will? Well, thats what we do with it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
      "Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina

    24. #49
      Xei
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      I tried posting one before but it didn't work, and I can't see it in the thread now... phpBB fucked up again I suppose.

      Anyway, that's another common argument which pisses me off to no end.

      How are viruses the result of free will?

      And a reality in which you can't have your cake and eat it is not a perfect reality. Case closed.

    25. #50
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      You must have missed what I have said in this thread. Such irony; we can only talk about things.



      Yes... it's stunning...

      Chaos is what the Cosmos looks like to a confused mind...

      Perhaps if we run out into the world with no shoes on and a bucket on our head, we will then suddenly think Perfection is not real?
      You have it backwards. Order is what the cosmos looks like to the deluded mind. Really, there is no mind to percieve chaos or order.

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
      Art
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