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    1. #51
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Neruo View Post
      Lets say This exact same world, minus scissors in that plastic packaging that you can only open with scissors? That would be a better world, in just about every definition.

      Then again, definitions of 'perfect' are vague, and at most nothing but a definition, a man-made concept. It's the same as the words good, nice, beautiful, sweet, cold and wack. Some people like to repeat the word 'perfect' as a mantra, a magical word explaining everything you apply it to. They never bother to define the word. The world isn't any more as 'perfect' as possible as it is as 'nice' as possible or as 'wack' as possible.

      Also, the whole confusing determinism with the ambiguous word 'perfect'... it's just to silly for words. - Gosh, everything is determined, lets call the world 'solid', yeaaaa, it's one solid world. And 'solid', man, that sounds cool, doesn't it? I should totally say that, man, just let go of your ego, 'coz the world is solid, yeaaaaaa. It doens't matter it's a nonsensical word I never reflect on, it just feels good to live in a world of pseudo-scientific theories I made up stoned. /end impression/
      I think what we have here is a misrepresentation of a misinterpretation of a misunderstanding of some good and solid ideas.

      Also, keep in mind that everything is a (hu)man made concept. Your first reaction might be that things exist independantly of humankind, and this might be true, but our perceptions and interpretation of those things are soully inside ourselves, and our communication and understanding is based entirely on human knowledge. No matter what you choose to ponder, discuss, or otherwise turn your attention to; it will be a purely (hu)man made concept and so dismissing something as ambiguous or vague because it is (hu)man made is arbitrary and meaningless in and of itself. Perfection exists no more or less than solid matter simply because we have a word for it, and therefore some perception of it. Our conceptualizaton of perfection may be loosely formed and hardly understood, but the fact remains that it does exist in some capacity.

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
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    2. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post

      [images]

      What the hell is up with you douches. Seriously half the people in this thread should be shipped off to Zimbabwe.
      If we use eyes of the world, we see suffering. If we surrender them, we see Reality; beyond the world.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      And a reality in which you can't have your cake and eat it is not a perfect reality. Case closed.
      This is a hypothetical reality, it is therefore not actuality.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xaqaria View Post
      You have it backwards. Order is what the cosmos looks like to the deluded mind. Really, there is no mind to percieve chaos or order.
      My point was, if we use the system of imperfection and judgment (ego/mind) we see chaos. If we do not use it, nothing is distorted. Afterward, even saying, or thinking "user" and "using" is stopped.

    3. #53
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      If we use eyes of the world, we see suffering. If we surrender them, we see Reality; beyond the world.
      I.e. ignore it and focus on my own peace of my mind.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

      Ich brauche keine Waffe.

      Ich ermittle ausschließlich mit dem Gehirn!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

    4. #54
      Xei
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      Basically.
      This is a hypothetical reality
      Yeah, it's one that Chayba hypothesised and I showed that it still didn't provide a loophole for him. Please keep up with the discussion.

      Edit: wait what??? phpBB is now showing me as the creator of this thread... I posted that picture on the second page of Chayba's thread. What the fuck is up with these forums...

    5. #55
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Edit: wait what??? phpBB is now showing me as the creator of this thread... I posted that picture on the second page of Chayba's thread. What the fuck is up with these forums...
      The thread is better that way anyway because it's totally sarcastic.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

      Ich brauche keine Waffe.

      Ich ermittle ausschließlich mit dem Gehirn!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

    6. #56
      Xei
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      lawl I guess you're right actually.

    7. #57
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      I really don't like the word perfect, its dualistic

      on one end if you say the world isn't perfect, you are recognizing there are REAL problems in the world that NEED TO CHANGE

      but it also sends out the message that these problems will never change, because the world isn't perfect, therefore as an imperfect world it will always have problems

      on the other end if you say the world is perfect, obviously this pisses off people because of the real problems that need change

      but the flip side to this statement is - these problems can change and disappear forever - because the world is perfect

      I personally like to say perfection is like evolution, you reach for it. Or like the big bang, exploding and spreading out. At first it all seems like chaos, then there is order. I say the earth can reach perfection. Because the reality that most of the world lives in abject poverty is unimaginable for a westerner.

      But there is another reality, a real true factual reality for earth that is even more unimaginable. And that is, there is actually enough for everyone. The world is big enough, there is enough food, there is enough water - there are enough willing minds to learn, or teach. Poverty CAN disappear, it is a real potential because the world has that sort of bounty in its reach.

      This is a reality however, big industry evil corporations don't want you to know about. They want you to think of the world as lacking. That we have to fight for supplies, rather than the truth there is enough for everyone. But for there to be enough for everyone, things do have to change. Especially, the way the world economy works.

    8. #58
      Xei
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      We're talking about now, not the future. When people say 'the world is not perfect', what they mean is 'the world is not perfect now', clearly. It may or may not be in the future. Do you take issue with that statement?

      Seriously since when do you use an adjective to describe something in the future? By that logic I should say that you're already dead. That's not how the English language works...

    9. #59
      Below are Some Random Schmaven's Avatar
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      You can say that you will be dead. Or my car will drive faster and be blue. You just have to include the future tense.
      "Above All, Love"
      ~Unknown~

    10. #60
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      Happiness is just an emotion and has nothing do with the world being perfect or not.
      Although perfect is really subjective though.......so....

      If "you're" not happy wouldn't that instead make "you" not perfect?
      I stomp on your ideas.

    11. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by Serkat View Post
      I.e. ignore it and focus on my own peace of my mind.
      Drop what is false to reveal what is True. Suffering is an illusion. These people suffer in these images, but to be enlightened is to realize they suffer by thinking illusion is real. All of this is part of growth, all people are Perfect, all people are innocent.

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Yeah, it's one that Chayba hypothesised and I showed that it still didn't provide a loophole for him. Please keep up with the discussion.
      My point is, that what argues about imperfections is hypothetical; symbolic illusions. At the same time, it is real by virtue of itself.

      Quote Originally Posted by malac View Post
      If "you're" not happy wouldn't that instead make "you" not perfect?
      Since unhappiness is the consequence of identifying with spurious imperfections, it would seem so.

    12. #62
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      This world is perfect. How the world is now is the only way it could have been.

      So the only thing that needs to change is yourself? Discuss..
      Most people missed my point I think. Maybe I skipped too many steps.

      I started from the assumption, that this world is perfect. (and if you want to join this discussion, you should take this assumption too)

      Then I reasoned, if this world is perfect, how come we don't experience it like perfect?

      And I came to the solution, that you need to change yourself, in order to experience this world as perfect.
      Quote Originally Posted by malac View Post
      Happiness is just an emotion and has nothing do with the world being perfect or not.
      Although perfect is really subjective though.......so....

      If "you're" not happy wouldn't that instead make "you" not perfect?
      Yeah maybe this is a better way of putting it. That's why I think you need to change yourself.

      I've learned this from my dreams, that my emotions are a product of my imagination. In my dreams I can create whatever emotion I want, but they are pure imagination! But they feel as real as real emotions and sometimes even better and more intense. So I realized it was possible to change yourself through the use of your imagination to experience these dream-emotions during daily life.

      My dreams have thought me that most things in real life are actually your imagination. And that you can take control over those things, just like you can take control over your dreams. And then I realized this world is perfect, because it is almost exactly like a huge shared dream. We are just all co-creators of this dream.

      Maybe we can't fly IRL, but we can create emotions of pure happiness by pure will power and imagination ,just like we do in our lucid dreams. I believe the power of lucid dreaming to induce desirable emotions can also be used during waking life.
      "Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina

    13. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      And I came to the solution, that you need to change yourself, in order to experience this world as perfect.
      After this is done, you see that you were Perfect anyway. All fear, was thus nothing but "pretend".

    14. #64
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      I started from the assumption, that this world is perfect. (and if you want to join this discussion, you should take this assumption too)
      Yes, religious people are experts in starting from unfounded totally ridiculous assumptions and arguing from there.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

      Ich brauche keine Waffe.

      Ich ermittle ausschließlich mit dem Gehirn!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

    15. #65
      smashin ur illusions The Enterer's Avatar
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      Well it is what it is. There's a little wiggle room if you work at it, but it's much easier to work on yourself. Someones sig line said that the ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine, and I think that's probably about as close as anyone is going to get to living in a perfect world.

    16. #66
      SKA
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      Because it isn't perfect in your point of view, or you would be in heaven all the time.. do you feel perfectly happy alll the time?

      If this world is perfect, and I don't feel happy all the time, it means theres something wrong with my view on this world, so that needs to change..

      This additude of acceptance of evils is most unrealistic in times like these. There are alot of great evils in this world that are Man-Mad and unnececairy. These evils would cease to be if human beings felt more in control of this world's condition and their life's quality. Telling people the world is perfect as it is and couldn't possibly have been any different is making people feel oblivious to fate and unable to change anything.

      This world can be ALOT better than it is now. COULD have been allready. This world is a paradise indeed, but a troubled paradise for sure. Paradise mixed with manmade pain. MANMADE: we are able to get rid of these evils if we properly connected with pure intentions to change this world for the better.

      This ain't no time to accept the impurities of this World: They will rot away the core of life and our existance in it if we accept them. They are serious impurities of heart & mind. Serious impurities that will have serious repercussions if we continue cling on to these evil ways.
      I am proud at my world view: I have a strong Morality and therefor STRONGLY disagree with certain ways of human being. Good thing I have morality which leads me to suffer in seeing wrongs: This Morality is what makes people build humanitairian laws, persecute warcriminals and genocide-generals and sign Peace treaties. This world could have alot better than it is today, but without Morality(sense of right and wrong) it would have been alot Worse for sure. Don't mock Morality as an inferior feature of our Minds that only leads to suffering. If we wouldn't suffer in seeing what is wrong, it is because we wouldn't care. What a cold world that would be.
      Last edited by SKA; 08-27-2008 at 11:21 AM.
      Luminous Spacious Dream Masters That Holographically Communicate
      among other teachers taught me

      not to overestimate the Value of our Concrete Knowledge;"Common sense"/Rationality,
      for doing so would make us Blind for the unimaginable, unparalleled Capacity of and Wisdom contained within our Felt Knowledge;Subconscious Intuition.

    17. #67
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      The only thing is that if everyone came to this realization, I'm willing to bet that all man-made suffering would cease. So in a way, it is a path to ending suffering. Also, who said you can't try to eliminate suffering or acknowledge and deal with crime in a perfect world? I think you may have a different interpretation of the word perfect than I do.
      "Above All, Love"
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    18. #68
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      No, I'm waiting for the rest of the humans to evolve into God, or better said, to realize they are God.. I'm already there. So was Jesus..

      Btw Xei, you already posted those pics. Those pics are a direct result of our free will. You want free will? Well, thats what we do with it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
      Brilliantly nonsensical bullshit claim that Christians also use. Free will? Hunger, death and disease were with mankind before, after and during it's transition to anything we could call having free will. Also, if you are one of those retarded 'the world is perfect' bullshitters, you can't also believe in contingency-causing free will. Also, reffering to yourself as 'god' is just bullshit semantics that makes you and steven seagall (also a self-proclaimed god) look like fucking idiots that live in a made up dreamworld and ignore reality. My definition of what you refer to as 'god' is, if applied to people, best described as 'silly define: megalomaniac hippies'. With all due respect. By the way, if you google for "Define: megalomaniac", you actually get:
      a person who is filled with grandiosity rather than Spiritual grandeur. The New Age Movement is full of these kinds of people. People claiming to be avatars, incarnations of the Masters, famous past life personages, claiming to be saints, claiming to have Hindu deities as children, claiming to have Spiritual experiences they never had, claiming they are Buddha Maitreya, claiming they are Babaji, claiming they are John of Penial, Edgar Cayce, the list is endless. 99.99% of the time this is total negative ego self delusion and self deception but in a megalomanic form! Another example is someone who claims to be at the 352nd level of initiation and someone who claims to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.
      And that's coming from a hippy new-age bullshit site, to top it off. lol.
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    19. #69
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      Lol, you just misunderstood, I'm a part of God, just like everyone is a part of God. That's what I meant.

      Just like when I'm dreaming, a dream character is me, but only a part of me.
      "Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina

    20. #70
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      We're talking about now, not the future. When people say 'the world is not perfect', what they mean is 'the world is not perfect now', clearly. It may or may not be in the future. Do you take issue with that statement?

      Seriously since when do you use an adjective to describe something in the future? By that logic I should say that you're already dead. That's not how the English language works...

      are you arguing against me?


      if you are I have no idea what on earth you are babbling about. who said I was only talking about the future?

      if you do not however believe you even have a future - you're morality and humanity can be suspended. thinking in terms of only right now doesn't solve problems if you believe there is no future

      first you have to imagine a better future and then compare that better future to right now, and see what is it about right now that needs to change for that better future: to be now

    21. #71
      - Neruo's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba View Post
      Lol, you just misunderstood, I'm a part of God, just like everyone is a part of God. That's what I meant.

      Just like when I'm dreaming, a dream character is me, but only a part of me.
      Yeah I know new-age wankers like to use words that sound really impressive, but mean shit in the way they use it. God, perfect, energy, soul. All nonsense words that can be replaced with clearer words, but that would undermine the entire new-age way of making things sound really cool without having a single grain of scientific, logically, empirical or coherent value. By definition new-age hippies, that like to make up their own worlds and definition of words, in which everything is perfect and god and this and that, can't use normal words, or describe things in a objective, non-emotional way because that is all their nonsense is: a shell of nice sounding reassuring words and assumptions with no core of evidence, and no intelligence around to change that.
      “What a peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call 'thought'” -Hume

    22. #72
      Member ChaybaChayba's Avatar
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      Yeah, you're so right, energy is total bullshit man. Who the hell came up with that idea? It should be banned from all use forever. We should also take another look at the mathematical proof that all matter is energy, e=mc², what did Einstein know? Lol this guy talking about energy, he must be crazy!
      "Reject common sense to make the impossible possible." -Kamina

    23. #73
      DEATH TO FANATICS! StonedApe's Avatar
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      Your right. Life is so much better when you let others make your world for you. (sarcasm) You create your world. your world is your perspective. How you percieve the things around you. Everything is perfect. We just have a desire for things to be orderly. To fit in to a certain pattern. Look inward and you will find that everything is perfect. Thats what it means. Meditate.

      core of evidence
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

      Women and rhythm section first - Jaco Pastorious

    24. #74
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      The world itself is indeed perfect, but I do not mean here the phenomenal world we live in. There is enormous suffering, caused by selfishness. The world is perfect in that the possibility of nirvana exists. Nirvana is perfect.
      "you only lose what you cling to"

    25. #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by gaia View Post
      The world itself is indeed perfect, but I do not mean here the phenomenal world we live in. There is enormous suffering, caused by selfishness. The world is perfect in that the possibility of nirvana exists. Nirvana is perfect.
      Suffering is the result of ignorance.

      Also, since Nirvana is the ultimate Reality, the world Is Perfect.

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