Thread: This world is perfect.

This world is perfect. How the world is now is the only way it could have been.

So the only thing that needs to change is yourself? Discuss..

Why would anything need to change if the world was perfect?

Because it isn't perfect in your point of view, or you would be in heaven all the time.. do you feel perfectly happy alll the time?

If this world is perfect, and I don't feel happy all the time, it means theres something wrong with my view on this world, so that needs to change..

How very Orwellian...

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Because it isn't perfect in your point of view, or you would be in heaven all the time.. do you feel perfectly happy alll the time?

If this world is perfect, and I don't feel happy all the time, it means theres something wrong with my view on this world, so that needs to change..

So you're saying the world is perfect, and I only see it as not perfect because of my views on whats wrong with it?

So, in order for me to see this world as perfect, I need to be happy with humans murdering each other, cheerful about rape, welcome political deception, encourage selfishness and greed and promote stupidity and idiocy from my fellow man?

I'll get right on that.

You misunderstand what perfection is. Perfection is completeness. It is not good nor bad. It just is. I think.

Perfection is a man made concept, it's subjective and doesn't exist outside of the mind. There's no such thing as universal perfection, only our individual, and very likely differing, opinions on it. Therefore you can't claim the universe is perfect for everyone, only for yourself. Aswell as that perfection usually means perfect for the individual, if its not perfect for the individual, and the person has to change.... then it doesn't qualify as perfection.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

How very Orwellian...

Nonsense! This thread is ready to be Voltaire-ized!

By assuming the Universe is or isn't perfect, aren't you assuming it has a purpose to be perfect or imperfect for in the first place?

And by deciding whether or not the Universe is perfect, you have already assumed you know what this purpose is, no?

If the world is perfect, then some people are perfect in their unhappiness.

You need not change.

Everything is perfect.

Spoiler for Osho:

This is a mystic's attitude: mystics say there is no need to change the world. But mystics are also of two types. One will say there is no need to change the world, but there is a need to change oneself. He also believes in changing -- not in changing the world, but himself.

But tantra says there is no need to change anyone -- neither the world nor yourself. That is the deepest core of mysticism. You need not change the world and you need not change yourself. You are just to know that everything is changing, and to float in the change and relax in the change.

And the moment there is no effort to create any change, you can relax totally -- because if the effort is there you cannot relax. Then tension will be there because in the future something of value is going to happen: the world is going to change. The world is going to become communistic, or the earthly paradise is to come, or some utopia in the future, or you are going to enter into the Kingdom of God, or into MOKSHA. Somewhere in paradise the angels are waiting to welcome you -- but "somewhere" is the future. With this attitude you are going to be tense.

Tantra says forget it. The world is already changing and you are also already changing. Change is existence, so don't become worried about it. It is already happening without you; you are not needed. You just float in it with no anxiety for the future, and suddenly amidst change you will become aware of a center within you which never changes, which has remained always as it is -- the same.

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

By assuming the Universe is or isn't perfect, aren't you assuming it has a purpose to be perfect or imperfect for in the first place?

And by deciding whether or not the Universe is perfect, you have already assumed you know what this purpose is, no?

Yes indeed, inside our minds, we want the universe to be perfect in order to be happy, whatever your concept of perfect may mean. Perfection is indeed a human concept, and the desire for perfection and heaven is a trait of the human mind. But if this world is already perfect, than in order to be happy, we don't have to change the world, but change ourselves. There's nothing wrong with the world, theres only something wrong with ourselves. The cause of not being happy is not the world, but your own mind that needs changing.

I believe it's possible to be high on life 24/7, to feel like you're on XTC non-stop. Why settle for feeling depressed all the time and living in hell, if you could as well be excited all the time and living in heaven... Happy people are way more productive and fun to hang out with than depressed people. Also, I believe this feeling of happiness has infinite potential, you can feel more happy each day, without any limits to the amount of happiness you feel. Why not try to get as much fun out of life as possible?

Originally Posted by ClouD

You need not change.

Everything is perfect.

Spoiler for Osho:

This is a mystic's attitude: mystics say there is no need to change the world. But mystics are also of two types. One will say there is no need to change the world, but there is a need to change oneself. He also believes in changing -- not in changing the world, but himself.

But tantra says there is no need to change anyone -- neither the world nor yourself. That is the deepest core of mysticism. You need not change the world and you need not change yourself. You are just to know that everything is changing, and to float in the change and relax in the change.

And the moment there is no effort to create any change, you can relax totally -- because if the effort is there you cannot relax. Then tension will be there because in the future something of value is going to happen: the world is going to change. The world is going to become communistic, or the earthly paradise is to come, or some utopia in the future, or you are going to enter into the Kingdom of God, or into MOKSHA. Somewhere in paradise the angels are waiting to welcome you -- but "somewhere" is the future. With this attitude you are going to be tense.

Tantra says forget it. The world is already changing and you are also already changing. Change is existence, so don't become worried about it. It is already happening without you; you are not needed. You just float in it with no anxiety for the future, and suddenly amidst change you will become aware of a center within you which never changes, which has remained always as it is -- the same.

Very interesting quote, I think along the same lines... this quote is better worded tho. But isn't the realization of yourself not needing any change already a change? And if Tantra claims you need to realize this in order to be happy, then you do need to change... this doesn't come automaticly.

If I am happy, I am happy.

If I am sad, I am sad.

Whatsoever I am, I am.

I say drop tantra. I say be, or not be. Just.

Of course the World is Perfect! And you all are part of the world!

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

If the world is perfect, then some people are perfect in their unhappiness.

Yes, but they are asleep! They are not awake!

You're all Divine, deep within You Know this!

Originally Posted by RooJ

Perfection is a man made concept, it's subjective and doesn't exist outside of the mind. There's no such thing as universal perfection, only our individual, and very likely differing, opinions on it. Therefore you can't claim the universe is perfect for everyone, only for yourself.

All concepts are man made. Truth, Divine Perfection is beyond conceptualization, it can never be guessed; it is no opinion, and therefore depends on neither the opinions nor the guessing.

Originally Posted by stonedape

You misunderstand what perfection is. Perfection is completeness. It is not good nor bad. It just is. I think.

Oooh... The naturalistic fallacy. Very nice! I agree.

Not only the world that is Perfect, but All that Is!

All!

And Beyond!

But what about beyond that?

Is anything not perfect?

I'd have to say no, but this shit gets confusing.

Originally Posted by stonedape

But what about beyond that?

Is anything not perfect?

I'd have to say no, but this shit gets confusing.

Concepts, words.

Existence, non-existence.

Elaboration on pure mystery.

Just be, just.

P e r f e c t
per fect
perfect
It has a nice ring to it... I sure do like perfect... I love being perfect.... I love observing perfect... I love experiancing perfect in all of it´s pin point infinet spectrum of all that is perfect...

reality is a perfect mystery

as I walk with a atitude of perfect gratitude

Sometimes sleeping, sometimes awake, in individual or shared, dream.

Sometimes forgeting, sometimes remembering, as I twist and turn, fundamental learn, how to be, truly awake and free.

what is divine perfection and how would it differ from my own views on perfection?

I see no reason or way that a universal perfection can exist. Perfection is completely personal... Like who you fall in love with. Ohh and on that note:

I'm universally the 'perfect' person for all women to fall in love with, if any woman disagree's they need to change themselves... How dare they have differing or personal opinions on the subject

Obviously replace the above example with one that isn't true for greater effect.

Originally Posted by stonedape

But what about beyond that?

Is anything not perfect?

I'd have to say no, but this shit gets confusing.

Words fall short, now. We are not speaking about trivial matters, or worldly matters of any sort.

If All Is Perfect, why ask the question of imperfection?

Originally Posted by RooJ

what is divine perfection and how would it differ from my own views on perfection?

Your "perfect" views are not True, they are transitory; they are relative. Divine Perfection, the only Real Perfection, Is beyond your mind; beyond all worlds and universes. This infinite Perfection reveals that it is nothing but that. You whole life before this was but a dream.

Originally Posted by really

If All Is Perfect, why ask the question of imperfection?

How can one know that all is perfect until one has asked this question?

Well personally, I question everything. Because if I don't do this I make the assumption that I know things that I do not know. I ask this question because I do not have focus and forget this very easily. But maybe I should stick with a more positive question, like is everything perfect?

Originally Posted by stonedape

How can one know that all is perfect until one has asked this question?

If All Is Known to Be Perfect, none is known to be imperfect.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Well personally, I question everything. Because if I don't do this I make the assumption that I know things that I do not know. I ask this question because I do not have focus and forget this very easily.

Question the questioner, perhaps he can be silenced.

Originally Posted by stonedape

But maybe I should stick with a more positive question, like is everything perfect?

Yes. An imperfection is an illusion, a perfect illusion.

Ah, well I see little to support the assumption that such a perfection, somehow surviving independent of consciousness, and conveniently unguessable and beyond conceptualization, exists.

I wonder what convinces you such a divine perfection exists? Bearing in mind I speak English and not riddle or poem like some on here