Proving The Impossibility Of Time Travel

[Jalexxi]

Well, I've heard a lot of people talking about this lately. I had this discussion with a friend who explained it was technically possible according to modern physics, you just had to squeeze yourself inbetween two black holes. And we all know that's a daily activity for almost anybody. I was thinking about it, and I thought up this little reasoning that seems to prove time travel is impossible. I don't use time paradoxes to prove my point, nor do I use scientific argument. I've kept it as clean-cut as possible. But what I'd like is some input on it, to see if I made an error somewhere, and what people think about it. So here we go. Suppose time travel is invented in 2020, by a guy I will refer to as the Mullet Man (kudos if you get the reference.). The Mullet Man decides to use his newfound powers of timetravel to travel back in time to the year 2000, where he becomes the first King of America. Under his rule, America experiences a golden age. However, the Mullet Man dies of a heart attack in 2025, and a new King is elected. Then, in 2040, a treatement is discovered that will allow people to live at least twice as long as was previously possible. A doctor goes back in time to 2020, and treats the Mullet Man so he will survive his heart attack, and he lives to rule America for a great deal longer. Now, that's our scenario. Suppose you are a person living in this time period, in America. Now, let's also say that if the Mullet Man did not come to America to be crowned king, the whole country would have been destroyed in a civil war. In 2000, what happens? Well, the Mullet Man arrives, and he is crowned king, obviously. But what happened to the other timeline, the one where America is destroyed in a civil war? It never happened. That timeline, as far as you are concerned, never existed. Let's skip ahead to 2020. This is when the doctor arrives to treat the Mullet Man to live longer. Again, what happened to the other timeline of him dying of a heart attack? It never existed. But, there's even another timeline beneath that one, the one were America was destroyed. That was replaced by the one where the Mullet Man died of heart attack, which in turn was replaced by the Mullet Man getting treated to live longer. Now comes the crucial point. So, if you are a person that goes through a timeline, you will only experience the last of the timelines, none of the iterations that came before it. Now, the conclusion is fairly simple. The reason that you can't change this timeline is, because it is the last of the timelines. If you changed it, it wouldn't be the last of the timelines, so you couldn't have experienced it, which means you wouldn't have a timeline to alter the time from. And that's the whole point. You can't timetravel because all the timelines you will ever experience are nessecarily ones that cannot be changed. I hope I explained that properly. Thoughts? Critisism? Additions?

[Peregrinus]

Many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics Conundrum solved If, at every possible juncture of events (such as Mullet Man traveling back to 2000 America, receiving treatment from the doctor, etc), not just one outcome is allowed, but all outcomes simultaneously unfold in different "quantum worlds," splitting a single world-line and a single universe into a branching multiverse, with each branch (each universe) equally real. If the many-worlds interpretation is correct, then Mullet Man is both the King of America and dead in 25 years, King of America and enjoying longevity thanks to the intervention of a doctor from the future, and a guy living in post-war America dreaming about time travel. All exist, and it is precisely the act of time travel and modification of a past world-line that causes the splits. One of the most fascinating corollaries of the many-worlds interpretation, in my opinion, is the idea of "quantum immortality".

[Original Poster]

Yeah I figured that paradox out once, too. But, to me, time-travel does explain all the fucked up things that have happened in history.

[King and God]

Good theory and post. But I do think absolutely anything is possible, altough it may seem extremely unlikely in most peoples' eyes. So I disagree that timetravel is impossible, altough I do find it unlikely to ever happen on Earth. And by the way, what does "kudos" mean?

[CryoDragoon]

interresting... no idea how the 2 black holes will help you time travel... but interresting...

[Limitz]

Very interesting theory. Nicely presented... Of course, I often point out that you can't disprove anything like this, but yeah, I'd say time travel is impossible. Oh and "kudos" is kind of like "congratulations." Praise or acclaim or w/e.

[Krrish]

Have you heard of grandfather paradox. Its almost same as your theory. Suppose you travelled back in time and killed your biological grandfather before he met your grandmother. As a result, one of your parents (and by extension, you) would never have been conceived, so you could not have traveled back in time after all. In that case, your grandfather would still be alive and you would have been conceived, allowing you to travel back in time and kill your grandfather, and so on.[/b]

[Jalexxi]

Originally posted by Peregrinus If, at every possible juncture of events (such as Mullet Man traveling back to 2000 America, receiving treatment from the doctor, etc), not just one outcome is allowed, but all outcomes simultaneously unfold in different "quantum worlds," splitting a single world-line and a single universe into a branching multiverse, with each branch (each universe) equally real. If the many-worlds interpretation is correct, then Mullet Man is both the King of America and dead in 25 years, King of America and enjoying longevity thanks to the intervention of a doctor from the future, and a guy living in post-war America dreaming about time travel. All exist, and it is precisely the act of time travel and modification of a past world-line that causes the splits. I know about the multitude of dimensions for possible outcomens that quantum mechanics postulates. That&#39;s indeed another theory that also works. However, there&#39;s no evidence to the existence of other dimensions so far, so the theories are equal for the time being. I&#39;ll be the first to admit that the existence of another theory in which time travel is possible means that I haven&#39;t disproved time travel once and for all. But I wasn&#39;t that ambitious anyway. But, in the context of a single world rather then a multitude, is this a theory that adequately proves the impossibility of time travel? Or is there an error in my reasoning somewhere? That&#39;s my real question. Originally posted by King and God+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(King and God)</div> Good theory and post. But I do think absolutely anything is possible, altough it may seem extremely unlikely in most peoples&#39; eyes. So I disagree that timetravel is impossible, altough I do find it unlikely to ever happen on Earth.[/b] Well, certain things are logically impossible. There&#39;s no way they could ever happen without breaking the building blocks of our reality. Imagine encountering an object that defies the principle of non-contradiction. The principle of non-contradiction states that anything is either x, or not x, but never neither or both at the same time. So, let&#39;s imagine a banana that defies this principle by being both a banana and not a banana at the same time. How would it look like? What would it&#39;s properties be? There&#39;s no way we can even begin to think about that. We can take that one step further, by trying to imagine a banana that is not a banana, but also is not not a banana. It boggles the mind. <!--QuoteBegin-King and God And by the way, what does "kudos" mean? Like Limitz said, kudos is a sort of token of praise. It&#39;s like saying someone will get a cookie for getting a reference, but instead of an e-cookie, you are getting the equally useless kudos. Originally posted by Krrish Have you heard of grandfather paradox. Its almost same as your theory. I&#39;ve heard of the paradox, and I&#39;ve avoided using it. That&#39;s because nobody is exactly sure what would happen if you&#39;d kill your grandfather, but with the advent of quantum physics, the general consencus seems to be nothing, because you&#39;ve gone to (or created) an alternate dimension. I wanted to try and leave the option of multiple dimensions out of it and construct a proof for time travel being impossible in a single world. The grandfather paradox, in a single world, is incomprehensible. I&#39;ve avoided it by making time travel impossible in the first place, thus making creating a grandfather paradox impossible as well.

[Original Poster]

No one has addressed my theory that time travel is porably the reason history is so fucked up, random stoners with time machines going back and screwing things up.

[Jalexxi]

Well, it would help to explain why you thought that was true. Give us an example of fucked up events in history, because right now I don't really know what you're talking about.

[Kaniaz]

My favourite all encompassing problem with time travel is that of did you need to go in the first place. Let's say you go back in time to fix something. So it's fixed. This means you had no reason to time travel back to fix it in the first place. Oops, did I just hear a universe exploding?

[Howie]

Another angle to look at time travel is the manipulation of time. The faster you go to the speed of light the more time slows down. Time dilation has been proven, to a moderate extent. If one were to travel at the speed of light I understand that it would stand still for the individual going that speed. SO...IF you were to obtain this speed and five years go by from another observer's vantage point (lets say earth) when you return you will have not aged while the time has actually passed you by on eath . This meaning you actually are going back in time. Not in the conventional way most people look at it, like times machines and the like but......

[lord_cliff_turtle]

Although I'm all for the branching reality/universe idea, I feel like challenging it. Say that right now something happens that splits the universe into several divergent timelines. Does that mean that your conciounceness/soul/self has been split into several pieces that carry on? Is this possible and if so could/would it have concequences on the person whose soul/whatever-you-wish-to-call-it has changed? Since this is sheer philosophy we can only deal in possibilities. Any ideas on possible ramifications?

[DyerMaker]

Although I'm all for the branching reality/universe idea, I feel like challenging it. Say that right now something happens that splits the universe into several divergent timelines. Does that mean that your conciounceness/soul/self has been split into several pieces that carry on? Is this possible and if so could/would it have concequences on the person whose soul/whatever-you-wish-to-call-it has changed? Since this is sheer philosophy we can only deal in possibilities. Any ideas on possible ramifications? [/b] With the multiple universe theory you have to think that for every single choice that every single person on this planet makes there is a separate universe. That makes the amount of universes innumerable and just seems so implausible. Because there is a universe out there where everything is exactly the same except I ate steak rather than chicken today... I dont know. If one were to travel at the speed of light I understand that it would stand still for the individual going that speed. SO...IF you were to obtain this speed and five years go by from another observer's vantage point (lets say earth) when you return you will have not aged while the time has actually passed you by on eath . This meaning you actually are going back in time. Not in the conventional way most people look at it, like times machines and the like but...... [/b] Essentially you are traveling through time but we are always traveling through time because time never stands still. So when you're traveling the speed of light it's more like you're stepping out of time but you couldn't completely step out could you? There would have to be time so that you could do something like breathe or slow the ship down from lightspeed otherwise it would simply be one instant that would be immeasurable. That immeasurable instant is suppose to relate to the flow of time like you said five years... But how would you ever know if five years would pass or a millenium in that instant. But let's say the speed of light simply slows time down then it could it be plausible.

[Howie]

I feel the multiple univers is straying off topic. I don't see the relavance to time travel. Although interesting. Essentially you are traveling through time but we are always traveling through time because time never stands still. So when you're traveling the speed of light it's more like you're stepping out of time but you couldn't completely step out could you? There would have to be time so that you could do something like breathe or slow the ship down from lightspeed otherwise it would simply be one instant that would be immeasurable. That immeasurable instant is suppose to relate to the flow of time like you said five years... But how would you ever know if five years would pass or a millenium in that instant. But let's say the speed of light simply slows time down then it could it be plausible. [/b] If you acknowledge the possibility that time can slow down, then you have to take into consideration that it can fully stop. The amount of time that passes is not the issue as much as is the point that you would be, "stepping out." Letting time pass you buy. Then coming BACK into a time five years gone.

[acheron]

All of you seem positive that time exists in some form allowing particles (namely some dude) to travel through it. I always say this is a load of bs. Time is a human construct created to help us understand the processes that occur like planets orbiting and organic tissue breaking down. It is a concept, an idea. It doesnt exist. You cannot travel through it because there is nothing to travel through.

[Howie]

All of you seem positive that time exists in some form allowing particles (namely some dude) to travel through it. I always say this is a load of bs. Time is a human construct created to help us understand the processes that occur like planets orbiting and organic tissue breaking down. It is a concept, an idea. It doesnt exist. You cannot travel through it because there is nothing to travel through. [/b] If something can be gauged by instrumentation and validated, I do not see how you feel it is only an idea. Your argument is weak at best. Everything has a lifespan which would encompass a time line.

[Original Poster]

Fucked up things in history that tiem travel is the only explanation of: Moses talking to God, and god doing stuff for Moses... Every miracle Moses performed could be linked to modern inventions. The fact is, the only plausible explanation is some asshole with a timr machine went back, lit a bush on fire and said he was God and told Moses to do a bunch of stuff. 300 Spartans defending the crap and all that... time travellers helped them. Hercules: Time travellers gave him steroids. Stone henge and the pyramids: Time travellers went back with fork-lifts. Amelia Earhart: Kidnapped by time travellers Michael Jackson molestation charges: Time travellers OJ Simpson: Time travellers See guys, it all starts to make sense.

[Distant Clone]

I disagree with Howetzer, but do not quite agree with acheron. Time is not an idea, it, like space, is only an illusion. A meterstick measures length, a clock measures time. Time can be divided into now and not now. Not now can be further subdivided into what has happened, and what might happen (probabilities are involved). @DoomedOne: With respect to your previous post, your name is kind of amusing. I have a problem with your post. If you know that time travel is the only option, you must know how the universe works, to know all other candidate possibilities that you have ruled out. However, then you should know how time travel works, and be able to explain it, instead of saying "that has to be it". I have read other explanations for the pyramids which I find better than time travel. Actually, our current technology is insufficient for construction of the pyramids. It does make one wonder "whose" technology was used to construct the pyramids. I would be more willing to concede that Nostradamus' predictions were consequences of time travel, but I don't see the connection to any of your other points.

[Actowriok06]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the fact that if someone from, say, 2050 were to travel back in time right now, wouldn't we know it? I mean even if after time machines were invinted they came with a law about not telling anyone, I'm sure somebody would be brave enough to go out there and tell us. Then there's the reason that everyone may disregard him and classify him as insane, but even if just one person were to actually believe someone and have this machine showed to them, then we would all already know. Unless there's something wrong with that theory...

[Howie]

I disagree with Howetzer, but do not quite agree with acheron. Time is not an idea, it, like space, is only an illusion. A meterstick measures length, a clock measures time. Time can be divided into now and not now. Not now can be further subdivided into what has happened, and what might happen (probabilities are involved).[/b] You agree that time is measured. Regardless of how we break it up it can be measured and exists, no? And even if it is an illusion of sorts, it may point that it is not an accurate gauge, but still there. Still existing. It seems as though you are just adding our own elementary addition of memory to the equation. Actowriok06, Of coarse I do not know, but I would think that it would have to involve multiple times and or dimensions. If like you say, going back in time..... making one minuscule change could change the entire coarse of history.

[Original Poster]

I do know how time travel works, Distant Clone, you need to get between two black holes, not so impossible. You ever see the movie black hole? They make one in the movie, they could make two if they wanted to, they being the scientists that make all the technology in Scifi originals, which are actors, but they're talented actors to make a black-hole. So there, plausibility, and if you need any other proof, just look at Roswell. Do you honestly think aliens could have travelled across billions, maybe hundreds of billions of lightyears with any sort of technology? Naturally not, naturally it's far more plausible to think our future actor/scientists made two blackholes, probably for Black Hole 2, and then time travelled back on accident while building the floaty spinny saucery thingy. Want more proof? Well, are you crazy enough to believe the CIA took JFK out? Me neither, I bet you time travellers did because JFK was cloned by other time travellers and that clone did wicked evil activities that made him like the next hitler so people thought it was JFK, went back in time and shot him. Only logical explanation. World trade center conspiracies? Pfft, do you really think the elitist movement in this country would commit atrocious activities and blame it on the arabs? No, time travellers were behind WTC, think about it.

[DyerMaker]

Well if someone were to come back and tell us about time travel and in if theory they have a law against it then it would be easy to go back in time and actually not allow him to travel. Time travel is an extremely powerful ability which could also be a weapon so ofcourse it would be heavily regulated or controlled by the government. That would also discount those theories about people going back in time just to screw around with the natives or events.

[Original Poster]

Oh come on, you honestly think the government wouldn't do some of these things themselves? If I were Secretary of time travel (which I will be once it gets invented) I would definitely go back and write in my name as the next God. It's too bad the mofo Jesus Sanchez, a spanish speaking comaderro of mine, has challenged me proclaiming he will be given the title when it gets invented. I can settle for going back and telling Jason Smith a few trippy things, though.

[Actowriok06]

Oh come on, you honestly think the government wouldn't do some of these things themselves? If I were Secretary of time travel (which I will be once it gets invented) I would definitely go back and write in my name as the next God. It's too bad the mofo Jesus Sanchez, a spanish speaking comaderro of mine, has challenged me proclaiming he will be given the title when it gets invented. I can settle for going back and telling Jason Smith a few trippy things, though. [/b] That just gave me an idea. What if, with the multiple worlds theory being true, Jesus Christ is just a time-traveller in our world (with no offense to religious people). Maybe some guy named Jesus wanted to make his name big and went back in time doing all kinds of crazy stuff and calling himself God's follower, or whatever and then faked his own death (or actually died)...just a random opinion.