• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2 10 11 12
    Results 276 to 298 of 298
    Like Tree21Likes

    Thread: The Devastatingly Controversial Abortion Thread

    1. #276
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      Quote Originally Posted by Supernova View Post
      Something just struck me about the whole abortion debate. I'd like to share it without becoming further involved in the debate. The real issue here is weather or not it's acceptable to deprive another of the option, but somehow every time it's discussed it becomes a debate on weather or not it's morally wrong to have an abortion. Anyone else see that as an issue?
      Because if it is morally wrong, it can be moreally justified to deprive them of the option? Same thing with any law, really.
      Paul is Dead




    2. #277
      Miss Sixy <span class='glow_FFFFFF'>Maria92</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      LD Count
      Mortal Mist
      Gender
      Location
      Seiren
      Posts
      5,003
      Likes
      1408
      DJ Entries
      82
      Quote Originally Posted by Supernova View Post
      Something just struck me about the whole abortion debate. I'd like to share it without becoming further involved in the debate. The real issue here is weather or not it's acceptable to deprive another of the option, but somehow every time it's discussed it becomes a debate on weather or not it's morally wrong to have an abortion. Anyone else see that as an issue?
      It ultimately comes down to a debate on what human life is, and at what point in development it should be protected. People define it differently. I define it as when a fetus reaches the organism level and its organ systems work together to keep it alive. spockman clearly disagrees. Hence this debate, and others much like it.

      Click the sig for my Dream Journal
      444 Dreams Recalled
      13 Lucid Dreams

    3. #278
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      It is interesting how many debates, even the most heated ones, (especially the most heated ones!) come down to semantics. Definitions are key, man.
      Paul is Dead




    4. #279
      Banned
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Gender
      Posts
      4,571
      Likes
      1070
      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      It is interesting how many debates, even the most heated ones, (especially the most heated ones!) come down to semantics. Definitions are key, man.
      I think the reason for that is that people like to throw around fuzzy, undefined ideas as the basis of their entire argument. The descussion becomes heated when said people repeatedly fail to define these concepts and instead resort to mindless rewrites of their initial unfounded assertions, apparently convinced that the amount of different ways you can say something has something to do with the truth of it. And worse, go on to insultingly insist that they have defined them.
      Last edited by ♥Mark; 03-10-2011 at 07:13 AM.

    5. #280
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      Quote Originally Posted by ♥Mark View Post
      I think the reason for that is that people like to throw around fuzzy, undefined ideas as the basis of their entire argument. The descussion becomes heated when said people repeatedly fail to define these concepts and instead resort to mindless rewrites of their initial unfounded assertions, apparently convinced that the amount of different ways you can say something has something to do with the truth of it. And worse, go on to insultingly insist that they have defined them.
      If you are talking to me, I think defining a human as something with human DNA is about as clear as it gets. Otherwise, I apologize and agree that, yeah, that would do it.
      Paul is Dead




    6. #281
      Banned
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Gender
      Posts
      4,571
      Likes
      1070
      A zop is something made of zop parts.

    7. #282
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      Quote Originally Posted by ♥Mark View Post
      A zop is something made of zop parts.
      You can disagree with my definition and have valid reasons for doing so, but that doesn't mean the definition is unclear. A zop is made of zop parts doesn't dictate how many zop parts are needed, etc. It is unclear. A human is an animal in any stage of development whose DNA is human DNA.

      I fail to see how this is anything but clear.
      Paul is Dead




    8. #283
      Banned
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Gender
      Posts
      4,571
      Likes
      1070
      A zop is any configuration of parts of which the parts are zop parts.

    9. #284
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      Quote Originally Posted by ♥Mark View Post
      A zop is any configuration of parts of which the parts are zop parts.
      Except it doesn't apply to everything that way. I can't say a printer is any combination of printer parts, they could all be in the wrong place and never make a working printer. But with life it is different. I don't think anyone would say, (or a very small percentage of people, anyway,) that someone seriously disabled isn't human because the 'human parts' are assembled wrong. When deciding what makes a lifeform species A and not species B looking at its DNA seems to be a good way to do it.
      Paul is Dead




    10. #285
      DEATH TO FANATICS! StonedApe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      toledo,OH
      Posts
      2,269
      Likes
      415
      DJ Entries
      61
      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      Except it doesn't apply to everything that way. I can't say a printer is any combination of printer parts, they could all be in the wrong place and never make a working printer. But with life it is different. I don't think anyone would say, (or a very small percentage of people, anyway,) that someone seriously disabled isn't human because the 'human parts' are assembled wrong. When deciding what makes a lifeform species A and not species B looking at its DNA seems to be a good way to do it.
      From the perspective of species it makes sense to say that a human fetus is human, but that does not make abortion wrong. Is your apendix human or some other species? It wrong to remove your apendix? I think what makes it right or wrong comes down to the effects it will have, not what you call the things involved.
      Mario92 likes this.
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

      Women and rhythm section first - Jaco Pastorious

    11. #286
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      Quote Originally Posted by stonedape View Post
      From the perspective of species it makes sense to say that a human fetus is human, but that does not make abortion wrong. Is your apendix human or some other species? It wrong to remove your apendix? I think what makes it right or wrong comes down to the effects it will have, not what you call the things involved.
      Sure. I understand that viewpoint even if I don't agree with it. But we've gone down that road already. Right now, my contention isn't that it is right or wrong. It is just that I made my views and my definitions as clear as I could make them.
      Paul is Dead




    12. #287
      DEATH TO FANATICS! StonedApe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      toledo,OH
      Posts
      2,269
      Likes
      415
      DJ Entries
      61
      Yeah I agree with that.
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

      Women and rhythm section first - Jaco Pastorious

    13. #288
      Banned
      Join Date
      May 2007
      LD Count
      Loads
      Gender
      Location
      Digital Forest.
      Posts
      6,864
      Likes
      385
      Are there any laws against non-suicidal self-dismemberment, I wonder?

      Can I saw off part of myself just for fun?

    14. #289
      Banned
      Join Date
      Nov 2007
      Gender
      Posts
      1,674
      Likes
      200
      There is no judgment prior to establishing a standard--it is quite impossible. Imagine arguing over what an inch is, when no one has standardized an inch. The mechanics is true for any judgment about any topic.
      The abortion issue is just one member of a class that cannot be answered because, quite frankly, mankind is generally too stupid to know how to think, i.e. render judgment.

      Establish a standard first, and that standard will determine class membership-- i.e. what is or is not predicable of anything.

      A child, at any stage, is the product of an environmental acquisition system. No one, other than those involved have any rights to that product. Some ancient traditions were quite right, the parents had sole discretion over a child until it was considered a finished product. No one has a right to life--only a responsibility to live.
      Forcing a woman to give birth when she did not consent to the conception is sex slavery.

      But if one standardize--then the whole world would get pissed off because, being idiots, they can do nothing other than what they desire, for they are quite incapable of will.
      Last edited by Philosopher8659; 03-10-2011 at 07:55 PM.

    15. #290
      Banned
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Gender
      Posts
      4,571
      Likes
      1070
      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      Except it doesn't apply to everything that way. I can't say a printer is any combination of printer parts, they could all be in the wrong place and never make a working printer. But with life it is different. I don't think anyone would say, (or a very small percentage of people, anyway,) that someone seriously disabled isn't human because the 'human parts' are assembled wrong. When deciding what makes a lifeform species A and not species B looking at its DNA seems to be a good way to do it.
      Well obviously the zop parts have to form a functional zop...

    16. #291
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      Quote Originally Posted by ♥Mark View Post
      Well obviously the zop parts have to form a functional zop...
      Something made of zop parts forming a functional zop would, in all probability, be a zop. I don't see a problem with that at all.
      Paul is Dead




    17. #292
      Banned
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Gender
      Posts
      4,571
      Likes
      1070
      So you can explain to me what a zop is? You could tell me the essential features and functions of a zop?

    18. #293
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      No, it is a word you made up. But place any word in the zop statement I agree with. A (television) is something made of (television) parts that functions as a (television.) It doesn't seem an unreasonable train of logic.
      Paul is Dead




    19. #294
      DEATH TO FANATICS! StonedApe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      toledo,OH
      Posts
      2,269
      Likes
      415
      DJ Entries
      61
      He might have you there spock, can a fetus function as a human?
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

      Women and rhythm section first - Jaco Pastorious

    20. #295
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      2,500
      Likes
      132
      It functions as life. Can a person in a coma function as a human? A fetus functions exactly as it is intended to function. Someone in a coma has a defective body. If a fetus isn't a human because it can't function like an adult, (and I don't see why it should be expected to function as one,) the person in a coma is even less human. No, functionality as far as defining what kind of life something is should come down to whether or not it is a living entity.
      Paul is Dead




    21. #296
      Miss Sixy <span class='glow_FFFFFF'>Maria92</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      LD Count
      Mortal Mist
      Gender
      Location
      Seiren
      Posts
      5,003
      Likes
      1408
      DJ Entries
      82
      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      It functions as life.
      Is stepping on a bug therefore morally equivalent to abortion?

      Can a person in a coma function as a human?
      Define "coma." If you mean coma as in the person can recover, then the CNS is sufficiently intact to warrant that a functioning human. If you mean coma as in persistent vegetative state, then I'd say no.

      A fetus functions exactly as it is intended to function.
      Much like a capacitor functions exactly as it is intended to.

      If a fetus isn't a human because it can't function like an adult, (and I don't see why it should be expected to function as one,) the person in a coma is even less human.
      A person in a coma has a functional, developed body. It is the mind/CNS that is failing them. A fetus has neither a CNS nor a functional body. This is sort of like saying a capacitor is more of a TV than a TV with a broken capacitor.

      No, functionality as far as defining what kind of life something is should come down to whether or not it is a living entity.
      Define "living." "living" as in mass of cells, or living as in functional organism? This brings me back to bug life being as valuable as human life.

      Click the sig for my Dream Journal
      444 Dreams Recalled
      13 Lucid Dreams

    22. #297
      DEATH TO FANATICS! StonedApe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Gender
      Location
      toledo,OH
      Posts
      2,269
      Likes
      415
      DJ Entries
      61
      So does bacteria.

      A person in a coma functions as a human, just one in a coma. It depends on what makes you consider them a being, for me they have to have a brain or some kind of consciousness in order to be an individual.

      I think there are two different meanings being reffered to with the word human here. One is talking about an object, a person. The other is talking about a classification.

      But we have different opinions as to why anything is right or wrong so we aren't going to come to the same conclusion. i don't think the definitions you use really matter when it comes to knowing what's right or wrong, you have to use your own intuitive judgment.
      157 is a prime number. The next prime is 163 and the previous prime is 151, which with 157 form a sexy prime triplet. Taking the arithmetic mean of those primes yields 157, thus it is a balanced prime.

      Women and rhythm section first - Jaco Pastorious

    23. #298
      Banned
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Gender
      Posts
      4,571
      Likes
      1070
      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      No, it is a word you made up. But place any word in the zop statement I agree with. A (television) is something made of (television) parts that functions as a (television.) It doesn't seem an unreasonable train of logic.
      Human is also a made up word. A television is what it is because of what it does. A television displays coherent images and sound as a result of the signals sent to it. There's more to it, of course, as this definition is indistinct from "monitor with speakers" (although a TV is a type of monitor with speakers) but the point is that "television" has an objective definition that is the result of what it does. "Television" is not some mysterious quality imbued in particular sets of monitors and speakers. When a set of "TV parts" are arranged in such a way that the resulting object does not perform TV functions, we only call it a "broken TV" because we recognize what function it was intended to perform. However, its form is arbitrary. If somehow you could make an object do TV things from nothing more than a sphere of clay, or a pile of bricks and sawdust it would still be a TV.

      "Human" is defined only in comparison to other humans. It's a useful distinction in our daily life, but it's ultimately arbitrary. There's nothing inherently special about human DNA or human life. What is special, which incidentally happens in humans, (and NOT as an inherent result of "being human") is the level of cognition that they are usually able to acheive. I think once something starts to recognize and value itself, that's when we should start caring about its existence outside of our own concerns.

      Quote Originally Posted by spockman View Post
      It functions as life. Can a person in a coma function as a human? A fetus functions exactly as it is intended to function. Someone in a coma has a defective body. If a fetus isn't a human because it can't function like an adult, (and I don't see why it should be expected to function as one,) the person in a coma is even less human. No, functionality as far as defining what kind of life something is should come down to whether or not it is a living entity.
      The reason we value coma patients is not because they have the quality "human," but rather in the hope that they will recover and regain their sentient, conscious brain functions. If somehow we knew there was no hope of them recovering ever, they would be as good as dead. In fact, consider how we treat our dead. We burn them or bury them, despite the fact they have human DNA.

      There is nothing inherently special about the quality "human." Just don't even mention it again unless you want to support the claim that there is.

    Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2 10 11 12

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •