So.... What exactly is truth?

Hello all. Now what is truth?..........that was a question asked by a Roman consul some two thousand years ago….and it is a question that on its surface seems so simple but in reality is rigged with ‘what ifs’, and ‘gray areas’.

The answer to the question is a fundamental distinction between right and wrong. So who determines what is right? If we leave God out of the equation one may conclude that the moral gauge of society is the determining marker. But we come back to the question, ‘where exactly does society gets its moral gauge?’.

If you walk up to a wall painted ‘white’ by the now accepted standard of colours…is that good enough proof?
What if some people in a few years then want to call that wall colour black……who’s to say they are wrong.

So what will be true?…..Is the wall black or is it white? Can both be true?

Are there any real distinctions anymore, any contrasts in our world or is everything now to just become grey? Is there right or wrong anymore or is it whatever you please?

Can anything ever really be a fixed standard when man uses his own gauge? History gives us the factual answer....……it is....NO!

At our current pace, in a few short years isn’t now possible that truth could become extinct? There is apparently no sacred ground anymore….no line in the sand…….hence it begs the question…

‘What is truth?

i look forward to your views on the matter!

Well, it is something that can be proved true. When you go up to a painted wall and say "that's green", it really depends what "level" of truth you are on. I think there are "levels" of truth. To be absoulutely true you would say "that is rainforest green" or something. Saying "green" is a more general type of truth. It is the same as saying "It is a bird" when looking at a hawk or something. It really depends on what "level" of truth you are speaking on. For example, 2+2=4. That is true. 2+2 is approxiametly 5. That's true, but more general. You could also say "2+2 is approximetly equal to 32043204320430843200324" (really depends on how "approximate" you are speaking). That's not lying, but its just not on a high enough level of "truth". I think "bending the truth" applies to a lower level of truth. When you say something that applies, but not giving all the information. For example, walk out of a public bathroom and say "there is a funny smell in stall #3". That is not lying, but it is a lower level of truth. A higher level of truth is like "I just shit in stall #3 and it smells rancid". Some people might call you "lying" if they are looking for a level of truth than what you are giving. Usually this is not true, though, because all levels of truth cannot be proved wrong.

That is a big ramble for me. I don't really know if that even made sense.

Sheesh I've gone over this one in my mind so many times already it's unbelievable. The only truth we can hope for is one which we create, but as of yet, it's far from perfect. People misinterpret one another, take things the wrong way, discriminate unnecessarily, and generally just throw their ego around. I think the only real truth we can accomplish is one where everyone's viewpoint is accepted and integrated in some way to society. There are things I know in fact, which would have me cast out of society, because people are horrified to even DISCUSS the topic. How can something be fixed if no one will talk about it? I base my decisions on how they affect other people, directly and indirectly, long-term and short-term. Anything which causes a tear breaks my heart. Smiles fill me with joy. I don't let the physical or mental nature of people change my behaviour towards them - young, old, black, brown, genius or just plain stupid, you're a human being in my books, and I believe this is where truth stems from. People need to be on a common page to understand truth, and I think the best truth we can hope for is one where people are treated equally throughout the world (ie NOT letting corporations reap huge profit margins from sweatshops).

Non-suffering is truth. Honesty is truth. "There is no love in fear" - Love is truth.
Truth creates heaven.

Young brown geniuses determine truth. Seven of them, under a dome in Utah. They have innumerable concubines.

I wish I had the slightest clue what you're talking about :)

The only absolute truth is that you exist and that your perceptions exist. Everything beyond this relies on assumptions that cannot be proven, think about it for a while.

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Originally posted by Belisarius
The only absolute truth is that you exist and that your perceptions exist. Everything beyond this relies on assumptions that cannot be proven, think about it for a while.

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What's the proof that you exist? And remember, if you quote Descartes we'll all point and laugh.

How could there be different levels of truth, that really isn't the question, but an extension of relating meanings of truth, such as the described 'approximate' word. There isn't 2 levels of truth when someone looks at a tree and says it is a tree, and another 10 years later says it is a Eucalyptus green tree. That's simply classification, clarification and simplification, the former still remains true. Truth is also the reflection of a question, value ect ect, so truth is only real or purposful when applied to that direct reflection.

I agree Awaken, how truth only really exists in the way we create or interpret it. Im guessing that iterpretation and perspective determine much about a person's inner workings, therefore these fundamental criterias effect truth in this form, but at the end of the day, when it comes to how it is, shit happens!!

hmm ive come to the conclusion there is no truth only perception as facts are ever changing so is the truth. what do ya think?

Not sure, everyone's opinion is cool. But honestly, this will never end lol, but my post rocks :P

the truth is what the majority of people agree is correct. sometimes different groups have different ideas of right, wrong and truth. but to them its still true. i agree, your truth is what you make it.

the only way to have real truth is to accept that everyone has their opinions, and that the truth is sometimes irrelevant anyway.

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Originally posted by Xisdence
Truth is also the reflection of a question, value ect ect, so truth is only real or purposful when applied to that direct reflection.

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Very powerful, I like this. People fight over the dumbest things when there are much larger issues to worry about!

ie:
MY religion is right!
No, MY religion is right!!!
Nu uh! My god is gonna kick your god's ass!!!!!

People are too busy competing their ideas to really use them wisely. It's like beating each other to death with 2x4's because we're the best and the other guys are dumb, instead of helping one another and using the pieces of wood to build a scaffold to reach the fruit on the trees :)

I believe reaching the fruit on the trees is the best truth we can hope for - which represents happiness and connection, and a realization that we need one another. Subjectivity destroys most relevant, out-of-reach truth if we're stubborn, so collaboration is the key.

I once read that truth is that which never changes. But things apparently change in the meantime. At apparency level, at least.

I've always sensed deep inside there's something about the universe that does not change, some immovable aspect or foundation for existence.

Oh ya, so often what we believe to be "true" is not questioned enough. I can even see a whole bunch of potential lies in sciences. Because, science depends on nature's laws to be constant and stable in order to justify the conclusions that they make from experiments and research. Which, if you look closely, is resting in imagination. I remember enjoying the quote from "Enter the Matrix...'if you drop a rock from your hand, you don't know what may happen. It may fall to the ground, but it may one day also float to the ceiling...'" Ya, this point can be confusing and is indeed far fetched, and very often there is no proper context to discuss this for!

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Originally posted by Taosaur+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Taosaur)</div>

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The only absolute truth is that you exist and that your perceptions exist. Everything beyond this relies on assumptions that cannot be proven, think about it for a while.

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What's the proof that you exist? And remember, if you quote Descartes we'll all point and laugh.[/b]

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I can't prove to you that I exist.

I can prove to myself that I exist because I experience things which means I must exist, I think, I must exist, you don't know that I do, but I directly experience that I do so I know it.

BTW Taosaur, wtf is that in your avatar?

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Originally posted by Bo Shalake
1. Hello all. Now what is truth?..........that was a question asked by a Roman consul some two thousand years ago….and it is a question that on its surface seems so simple but in reality is rigged with ‘what ifs’, and ‘gray areas’.

2. Can anything ever really be a fixed standard when man uses his own gauge? History gives us the factual answer....……it is....NO!

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Here's an answer to that Roman consul's Q (and dim sum!):
John 8
"31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Hmmmm. Sumpm ta chewon.

As for #2, well the dillemma is that you are making a truth statement, yet saying that (absolute) truth does not or cannot exist. That is the contradiction that is subjectivism.

So basically: "do not seek to understand in order to believe, but believe that you may understand"?

Truth comes from faith? If so, would this still not be a subjective dilemma?

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Originally posted by Belisarius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Belisarius)</div>

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Originally posted by Taosaur@
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The only absolute truth is that you exist and that your perceptions exist. Everything beyond this relies on assumptions that cannot be proven, think about it for a while.

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What's the proof that you exist? And remember, if you quote Descartes we'll all point and laugh.

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I can't prove to you that I exist.

I can prove to myself that I exist because I experience things which means I must exist, I think, I must exist, you don't know that I do, but I directly experience that I do so I know it.[/b]

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1stly,

/me points and laughs

\"I must exist, I think, I must exist\" is paraphrase, which counts.


2stly,

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Originally posted by elsewhere Belisarius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(elsewhere Belisarius)</div>

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All experience proves is that you are experiencing something, not that your interpretation of your experience is correct.[/b]

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I'd say that nicely refutes your assertions above. I accept that you have faith that you exist...

<!--QuoteBegin-Belisarius also
BTW Taosaur, wtf is that in your avatar?

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That is the Synanthropomorphax :upsidedown:

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Originally posted by Awaken
So basically: \"do not seek to understand in order to believe, but believe that you may understand\"?
Truth comes from faith? If so, would this still not be a subjective dilemma?

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There is truth in a temporary sense as it exists in our time and temporal reality (as we know it now).

Then there is Truth that is revealed... or granted through faith if you will.

The gist of Augustine's quote as I understand it is that if you seek to understand Truth (absolute) through the intellect or will of the mind alone, you will never find it, but that if you believe and are "open-minded" in the sense that you are willing to believe without naivete, you will understand truth in regards to wisdom (long-standing or eternal truth).

I don't think that we can handle the Truth, though. We tend to suppress it in our self-centeredness and sin. That 's why true faith must be a gift.

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Originally posted by Taosaur

That is the Synanthropomorphax :upsidedown:

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He means a picture of a melting vagina

[that\'s what it looks like to me...]

I don't see it.

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Originally posted by evangel
The gist of Augustine's quote as I understand it is that if you seek to understand Truth (absolute) through the intellect or will of the mind alone, you will never find it, but that if you believe and are \"open-minded\" in the sense that you are willing to believe without naivete, you will understand truth in regards to wisdom (long-standing or eternal truth).

I don't think that we can handle the Truth, though. We tend to suppress it in our self-centeredness and sin. That 's why true faith must be a gift.

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I see what you mean. Over the past few years I've done so much mental growth, all as a result of one 'spark' of faith (faith in justice, loyalty and, like you say, lack of naivete). I don't believe in God as Xtians do, or like any religion for that matter, but I'm not one to judge (anymore!). The faith journey has brought me internal resolution and a diminished ego. I hear people complaining about others: (what a moron! man this guy's so stupid! jeez i'm soooo much better than that person!!) I did it too and I'm ashamed of it. It got me nowhere. I guess when we let our ego slide, the Grand Truth is slowly revealed to us, much like a puzzle. I'm sure we could never know it in it's entirety, but it's not completely hidden. When we listen before speaking or judging, wisdom is much more evident. We were given two ears and one mouth people, use them accordingly ;)

Hehe, the loophole: we were given ten fingers :)

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Originally posted by Belisarius
I don't see it.

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I'm pretty sure that was a joke...

It's a doodle from my sketchbook--just surreal imagery based on the human form. I look at it as a portrait of someone struggling for identity, but not quite coming together.

EDIT: Perhaps Kaniaz is seeing a reflection of his own struggle for identity, embodied symbolically as a melting vagina.

Actually, look Taosaurs avatar and you can see a person about to hit someting but being held back by something else bigger, or am i just weird??

Anyway truth is, as that has been said, a perception. To every single person they would probably say the truth is that they exist, and to them it might seem to be the truth, but is there really anyway to know?

The answer is NO we don't know whether we exist, we think we do and thats enough for most, but can you prove it 100%???

Once again I believe it is my friend Smith that says it best:

[quote]Why, Mr. Anderson, why? Why, why do you do it? Why, why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something, for more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is, do you even know? Is it freedom or [b]truth
He is indeed a truthbearer and in the end I believe him to be the one that is right. But then again we are entering the equally turbulent waters of: "What is right?". Relativity my friends, that is all everything is. That is the greater truth

*restarts the cycle by once again using the vage concept of truth*

Quite the truthbearer, huh?