thinking with no lang???

a friend of mine went to australia for a year. when he came back to sweden he told me that after beeing in australia and after spoken english a lot he started to think in english. that leads me to a question: how would it be without having a language?
When im hungry, im thinking: im hungry! When im planning to do something i think about it, in swedish, inside my mind. When im trying to remember something i think in words.
Maybe our whole intelligense is based on our languages.. What do you think about it?

I was at a foriegn exchange camp and a girl I got to know very well (from Isreal) said that she'd be on the phone with her mom and start speaking English! (we were in a English speaking camp).

This doesn't really relate to the topic, but whenever I stay in another country which doesn't speak English (or speaks it as a second language with a heavy accent)... I come back home and get elated when can understand the conversations of strangers around me! I can go up to any of them and start a conversation! I can go up to a store manager and ask a question! I hear English spoken without an accent and it is such an overwhelming feeling!

Okay, enough of my batter. Without language we would go crazy and die. I remember my teacher telling me that they tested babies like this in the late 19th century... isolation, no language, no human contact. They wanted to see which language the babies would come up with... it turned out those babies went crazy and died.

It's weird because I don't know Japanise, but occasionally I'll find myself thinking in Japanise (phrases) and speaking it aloud to myself. My mom is half Japanise and is CONSTANTLY speaking it on the phone and yelling at me in Japanise... I don't even know the exact meanings of the phrases I speak and think in my head!

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how would it be without having a language?[/b]

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You pose an interesting question.

Studies preformed those who have been born deaf and use sign language as a means of communication show that non-verbal symbols, as in signs, are processed much in the same way as spoken language. Instead of thinking in terms of words and sounds, the deaf seem to form signs as symbols in place of them in the left hemisphere of their brain. This suggests that, although verbal language has come to be the most effective means of communication between humans, it is very much possible that more obscure forms of information passing between individuals would be processed in a similiar fashion. For instance, if communication was simply interpreting facial expressions, our brains would think about words in terms of those muscle movements.

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Maybe our whole intelligense is based on our languages.. What do you think about it?[/b]

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Or, perhaps, our advanced way of using and manipulating language is based on intelligence?

Our current regard of language is a result of our increased intelligence; developed out of a need for a working community. However, you must remember that other forms of life have languages as well. Dolphins, whales, elephants, wolves, and ants are all fine examples. Any kind of pack environment requires some way to pass information.

I think of it differently. If we are born with others and grow up with no taught language, we will invent some form of communication, something basic, and in generations to come, the communication would become more advanced (stricter, written, that sorta thing). So I believe this is why we don't see writings from the first people to hit earth. Language evolved to come up with symbols and eventually a good, written system. Which leads me to think.... where is language going to go in the next couple hundred years... I think many will die out as technology ties things together, and only places that are not tied in will keep their native tongues.

But this is just a theory.

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Originally posted by Je33ica
Without language we would go crazy and die. I remember my teacher telling me that they tested babies like this in the late 19th century... isolation, no language, no human contact. They wanted to see which language the babies would come up with... it turned out those babies went crazy and died.

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Lack of verbal communication is drastically different than isolation from human contact :|
I don't think anyone would really go crazy without verbal communication, provided they have contact with other humans.

yes, as i was trying to point to above.. there would be other methods of communication, via body lang, etc.

Language is a way of communicating thought, but not all thoughts take the form of language. What about visual art? Thought definitely goes into it, and there's even communication, but it's not verbal. Just read an artist's statement sometime; when they try to translate their work into language, it's often half-gibberish ;).

For that matter, what about thoughts that are hard to communicate? I write poetry, and before each poem comes together, there's a thought or experience that wants to be expressed. If it was already language, it would just be a matter of slapping it down on the page, but instead it takes serious effort to come up with something that even gets close to the original idea.

I think a lot of the time we don't pay attention to our thoughts until they turn into language, but it doesn't mean they're not there.

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Originally posted by Je33ica

Okay, enough of my batter. Without language we would go crazy and die. I remember my teacher telling me that they tested babies like this in the late 19th century... isolation, no language, no human contact. They wanted to see which language the babies would come up with... it turned out those babies went crazy and died.

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they really did that?? it sounds a bit... harch.. poor babies... sounds ´like some weird nazi experiment

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For that matter, what about thoughts that are hard to communicate? I write poetry, and before each poem comes together, there's a thought or experience that wants to be expressed. If it was already language, it would just be a matter of slapping it down on the page, but instead it takes serious effort to come up with something that even gets close to the original idea.

I think a lot of the time we don't pay attention to our thoughts until they turn into language, but it doesn't mean they're not there.[/b]

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ye, the thoughts might be there without our language, but would we be able to process them and understand them without our language?

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Originally posted by dj0s

ye, the thoughts might be there without our language, but would we be able to process them and understand them without our language?

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Yes.



Ok that was a smartass answer :-P
We wouldn't necessarily be able to communicate the idea to others, but we, ourselves, would understand the concept and meaning in the form of emotion, and how it relates to past experiences in our lives and whatnot.

Could language be like a pre-programmed thing or instinct nowdays inside us, as we have evolved with it so long, or is it still simply a simple communication tool that we learn to use??

You have to wonder though, how a person who speaks 2 languages as well as each other, thinks and if there is any battle or switching of these inside they're heads at any stage?

This post is kinda cool, as in it's one of those, "i've always wondered that' type ones :P

i started a topic going in chat a while back.

my theory is that cavemen with less evolved minds naturally thought in pictures which connected, example it would not picture in its mind 'i need wood to make a fire' it would rather think of a discomfort (cold) and link this with fire, then realize that it needed to get wood for fire etc.
i dont think our more adapted minds can cope without lack of language due to our minds evolving and becoming utterly dependant on language to think. this would fit in with the 19th century experiment as mentioned above.

well thats what we came up with in the discussion.

Language is the medium by which we percieve and interpret our thoughts. If we had no language we would still think, but I don't think thought could develop as much without a developed langauge, it would be much more difficult to arrive at conclusions without placing labels on things.

I can think without words if I try, but so can everybody. Before the words are formed in your head, you get an impulse (the true thought) which quickly translates into words, but doesn't have to. Thinking without words can be described as knowing something as opposed to telling that something to someone.

It has been hypothesized that langauage changes your entire way of thinking, though it is more of a "I exist here, and now." More abstract ways of thinking are possibly harder to use without language.

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Originally posted by dj0s
Maybe our whole intelligense is based on our languages..

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I would tend to disagree with this notion.

Firstly, linguistic communication is only one form of communication. It is certainly not the only form, and depending on context and circumstances may not be the "best" form either in certain situations.

Also, not all cultures have the same "words". Many times a word will exist in one culture for which there is no exact translation into another language. So if language was the base on which all intelligence was formed, this would seem to imply that one culture would be more intelligent than the other based solely on the fact that they have a word or concept expressed in language that the other does not. To me, such a notion is unfounded to say the least.

The last point I would like to make is that often language fails us. There are numerous time when I will have a thought formulated in my mind, but I fail to correctly convey that thought through language. At times this can be very difficult to do. If it were true that these thoughts were formulated by language, then it would be very easy to convey to others. But that is not the case, and sometimes (more often for some than others I am sure), thoughts are not formulated by language. If you have never had this experience, I am sure that in time you will, as once again my language fails me to convey what it is like.

This is particularly true of some artists who use paintings, music, etc, as a means to convey what cannot be put into words.

I do not deny that language plays some role in the development of intelligence, but to say that "our whole intelligence is based on our language" is to me a gross under-estimation of the mind.

Just some of my thoughts

Here are some thoughts on how language effects mathematical abilities

Stevehatten wrote

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Before the words are formed in your head, you get an impulse (the true thought) which quickly translates into words, but doesn't have to.[/b]

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I like that notion. I feel the exact same way.

There was this study of some people native to areas around the Amazon rainforest. Their language didn't have any mathematical terms or concepts. Later, the people were tested on their math abilities and did very poorly.

The conclusion that they came up with is that math can be effected by language.

I tend to think more like Stevehatten though. I feel that you really don't need language to visualize electrons moving through the air for example. That is just an example, but you can mentally picture most things happening and think about it like that. For thoughts like these, the words are necessary only if you want to convey that thought to another person. You don't need words to explain something to yourself since you're the one who mentally sees it.

Language does help you to set a thought aside for later use, though. Even if you're not communicating it, language can provide a way of storing ideas so that you can build on them later. Also, you can build more complex ideas by sharing information through language. Of course, we could debate the value of complex ideas all day...