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    Thread: Gods Cannot Have Consciousness

    1. #176
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      I'm not sure how we are defining pure consciousness here, but I would define it as a fundamental substrate of existence, much like the fabric of space time. In this sense, there is not different forms of consciousness, only different manifestations of consciousness that are recognized by the limitations imposed on consciousness by one's faculties of awareness. One is not less 'conscious' after sustaining brain damage, they are just less aware, and less capable of acting on that awareness. The quality of conscious experience may differ but any talk about quantity is mostly speculation.
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    2. #177
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      Pretty much!

      I'd just emphasis that Pure Consciousness, as I understand it, is beyond space-time. I guess that's what you mean. So it has no locality or limitation to space-time, but while it totally encompasses it.

    3. #178
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      I just discovered this thread, and I have read through many pages to get an understanding of what the arguments are about, however, I lost patience along the way and skipped to the end. I'd like to address a few things.
      For those who have skipped to the end, so bored , just like me, read Dannon's post story to understand the essence. And for the others just leave the school-yard, it's getting late.

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      A question for the OP (or rather his points, since I haven't seen him post in years), why assume the universe isn't mental? Assuming this is true for the basis of argumentation, "God" by any loose definition we can place on it is therefore capable of consciousness. Now, arguing whether it is or is not is another argument altogether, but if we are all concepts and thought forms existing because existence is by its nature is self-propagating. Existence seeks to manifest itself in the most efficient manner possible. By the same token, death and destruction is a very necessary part of existence because existence without inexistence is not possible. Why? Everything exists as opposites and poles. This polarity demands that at some point in time, in some other dimension or by some way possibly incomprehensible to us, things will not exist just as they have existed. In fact, one could argue this takes place now, either in the separate dimension or even in "ours" because everything collapses from its preconfigured state into a single outcome, thus causing the "inexistence" of what could have been, never to be.

      In conclusion, however, "God", The All, Allah, Yahweh, a vibrational superbeing behind our comprehension, what have you, there is no reason I can see that it would lack the potential for ability of containing consciousness. After all, assuming it is real, it created all of existence, just by willing it. Then again, nothing says that it has to be conscious either in the sense that we know it, either.

    5. #180
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      Oooh - been just reading all thread, and it's great! Nice that it's re-animated!
      I'm too tired to write now, though - guess I'll be back later.

    6. #181
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      Quote Originally Posted by Urdeanu
      For those who have skipped to the end, so bored , just like me, read Dannon's post story to understand the essence. And for the others just leave the school-yard, it's getting late.
      Most useless yet enjoyable bump I've seen in ages.
      I don't recommend skipping ahead though, as it leaves out all the meaty bits.

      Thank goodness there are rarely cries of "necro-posting" in ED!
      As it should be, if you ask me.

      Notice that almost a full year elapsed between posts #130 and #131.
      Just think if someone had locked the thread at #130, suggesting a fresh new thread on the topic be started instead of continuing the discussion already set into motion...

      Think of all the excellent points that would have to be remade, lacking the context that made them great in the first place.



      Upon rereading this thread in it's entirety:

      It seems as though the OP evolved to define "God" as the typical monotheistic omni-god, and "Consciousness" being limited to that which is comparable to what humans are capable of experiencing. Yet the idea that a consciousness superseding human perception could in fact exist...is clearly being entertained here.

      I feel as though this type of consciousness is clearly possible, but given that I have no frame of reference for it, no way to translate it into relatable terms... any argument I could make for it's existence would seem rather contrived.

      It has been said that " Pure consciousness can be analogously related to the screen background or light in a movie theater. Even when there are no objects displayed (I.e. nothingness), the screen/light is still present. "

      In this respect, our experiences/thoughts/perceptions are but images formed via this light of consciousness, if you will. That, I feel, is an excellent metaphor that could potentially BEGIN to describe this ellusive, hard-to-describe consciousness that exists beyond what we are able to perceive.

      If this sort of consciousness could in fact exist, it makes perfect sense to me that we humans would think of it as Godlike. But is it?

      Or is it simply the origin of a construct that humans have (mainly out of ignorance or bias) oversimplified/overcomplicated/otherwise shaped to fit our own definition of what consciousness means and what it could look like?

      Time and memory must exist for consciousness to exist, yes (I think). But if the type of God described in the OP is being credited with the creation of reality, would it not follow that such a being would possess an innate knowledge of time and memory, having created it?

      Even if they didn't create it, would not their omnipresent nature allow for a consciousness that experiences a version of time and memory beyond human perception?

      Although this would not fit most peoples definition of consciousness, does that make the idea any less possible? I am not convinced. (Forever the skeptic!)



      But I've had my fair share of liquor-soaked fruit tonight, so my perception might not be up to par at the moment. Regardless, I am very pleased to see this thread still exists., and if I could hit a button that liked all the responses at once I would honestly be tempted...
      Last edited by acatalephobic; 11-08-2014 at 11:53 AM. Reason: viva la necropost!
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    7. #182
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      Your last post was in January this year (2014) so I bet you are lurking.

      God is merged with you. As a result he is as conscious and intelligent as you.

      He gets his consciousness and intelligence from everything he has merged with and he has merged with everything within the space time continuum.

      Briefly

      From the beginning till the end of the "original" material world there was no spirit, soul or afterlife. There was only dead matter from the BigBang to AbsoluteZero.

      At the end of time when the material world cooled to AbsoluteZero the BigBeing (God) was finally born.

      The last civilization predicted the event and left messages around inviting the BigBeing to come to them when he becomes aware. The last civilization knew that at the end of time, it would get so cold that matter would no longer resist energy and that would ignite an unimaginable explosion. All matter, at the end-of-time, would combust.

      This explosive NEW substance would hurl backwards through time and space MERGING with all pre-AbsoluteZero matter and energy, and become aware.

      There was not enough room in the original space-time continuum so this NEW substance (God) bounced around making more room (dimensions) for himself. He finally busted out of the powerfull constraints of his time-space continuum. Out side the space-time continuum is nothing but this NEW substance (God)

      Ok

      Then he noticed those messages left by the last civilization.

      He and the last civilization collaborated to merge with all organic life from the beginning to the end of time to give each and every bit of life an eternal home, (somewhere among the multitude of NEW dimensions).

      Ok

      I think angels and fairies are the result of embryo's that fell apart after only two or so dividings. Like, the sperm met the ovum, becoming one cell. But the DNA was so faulty that the embryo only managed to divide a couple of times then died.

      I recon that the members of the last civilization, working with the (fully merged with everything) BigBeing, are moving backwards through the space-time continuum, putting down invisible tendrils into ovums then patiently suffering everything that that lifeform suffered, from conception to death.

      Then

      delivering the (fullymerged) BigBeing from the dead body to a safe home in a higher dimension. Totally preserving you and me in the process. It is important to note that the last civilization is not rescuing you or me. They are rescuing the BigBeing. All us humans are like the opposite of collateral damage. They don't care if we are good bad or ugly. There is absolutely no judgment in them when saving us.

      Even if we only made it to one or two cell divisions, we get transported to our new home. We continue dividing in a now perfect environment. As a result we get perfect nature and nurture. And because we have never suffered, we become angels, (or fairies ???)

      Sorry, that was super brief so it might not make much sense.

      Quote Originally Posted by O'nus View Post

      This has been discussed earlier, but I want to place emphasis on my point in this argument - any sort of God cannot have a consciousness.

      Memory allows a functional linear relationship between chronolgical phenomenological experiences. Without memory, these phenomenological experiences become independent and isolated, alienated from the rest of the phenomenological experiences sought from the relative kinetic energy invested being. This is where we must begin.

      In theory and in idealised, it is nearly impossible to re-enact the beginning of all things as it is impossible for a kinetic bound being to enforce static energy. How can this be worded simpler? In the beginning, that is to say the beginning of a linear kinetic model, static energy existed. Static energy, not being subject to phenomenological experiences or tangibility, merely existed as energy without mass. This energy can best be visualised as the essence of things that is transferred with one another to cause interactions - but without a mass. All things posesed this energy as it is necessary for an existance.

      The question stares us in the face - what caused kinetic energy to begin? During the timeless state of static energy, an event must occur to cause motion; kinetic energy. This is the one fatal flaw of this whole ordeal as I have not delved into the cause and find it very difficult to as the very thought of cause and effect is subject to the very dissimilation I am attempting. Cause and effect are subject to memory and it's relationship on a linear model. Cause followed by effects are merely the interaction of kinetic energy recorded by phenomenological beings. Let's pass this for the moment.

      Given that kinetic energy is the world we live in, we are subject to a constantly changing world. This kinetic energy is, however, bound by rules and laws. These laws function on a level of constant growth such as stochastic model growing expotentially. During this process, the phenomenological beings must find ways to exist within a constantly changing and growing world (the kinetic world). The kinetic world is what the phenomenological beings experience.

      In order to survive, phenomenological beings must formulate a way to maintain a consciousness throughout the constantly changing world. This consciousness is what connects moments to moments in a constantly changing body and world. The body is constantly changing just as the world. The essential point here is that consciousness is necessary for any liviing being (phenomenological being) to exist or survive. Each moment is novel. Without memory, all beings would die, nearly instantly. Memory allows phenomenological beings to survive in the kinetic world.

      Within this survival comes the rules of evolution whereas some are better fit at surviving than others. This is simply attributed to the ability to adapt to the kinetic world better than others.

      Chaos theory meets evolution.

      In the kinetic world, the stochastic system is a driven model by phenomenological beings in attempt to record evolution which is the survival of beings through the kinetic world.

      Contemporary time does not exist. Time is not an externally existing entity.

      Time is a concept created by phenomenological beings in order to survive in the kinetic world. With the concept of time, we can record, relate, and recall what we refer to as ourselves. However, the past recollection are of entirely different entities and phenomenological experiences. Every moment is a new being, minutely changed, but related to by memory. Time allows beings, especially humans, to survive so well.

      Humans requrie the concept of time and consciousness in order to survive. Without the concept of consciousness, or being able to tell others how they feel, humans would die. It was necessary for the humans to develop the ability to communicate what they are thinking to others. This, simultaneously born with time, creates the self. The self exists as a social self and personal self. The social self being as perceived by others and the personal self being as perceived by the same body of kinetic energy (remember, you are a house of individual kinetic energy born from static energy).

      Summary:
      (God defined as an omniscient, omnipresent being)
      P1) Consciousness is necessary for phenomenological beings to survive
      P2) Time is necessary for consciousness to exist
      C1) Consciousnes is subject to time
      C2) Phenomenological beings are contigents of time and consciousness
      C3) Phenomenological beings, time, and consciousness are all contigents of kinetic energy

      P4) Time and consciousness are necessary for phenomenological beings to exist
      P5) Gods are not subject to time or Gods are timeless
      P6) Gods cannot be a contigent of anything
      C3) Gods do not have a consciousness nor kinetic energy

      What does it mean if a God cannot have a consciousness? This means that a God (an omniscient, omnipresent being) cannot make any sort of ethical judgment. Gods cannot make judgments on good or bad nor anything of that matter that is subject to a phenomenological being. Thus, any ideas of a God making a phenomenological action cannot occur as a God cannot and is not subject to a phenomenological existance.

      This, of course, means that nearly all contemporary ideas of God cannot exist. Most importantly, the contemporary Christian God cannot exist as humans have conceived it and that the bible is cleary arbitrary.

      This is a dramatic argument for all Theists alike and I welcome you to argue any part of it. I want it to grow and I want to see where it can go. Please, if you see any fatal flaws, please show them to me.
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