How is the USA similar to ancient Rome?

Honestly, I haven't studied much history at all. But from what I've heard, Rome and the US have a lot of similarities.

Ancient Romans exploited resources gathered from all around for their pleasures. They were nearly always at war, and not for what I would consider good reasons. The citizens expected to not have to do much actual work. They didn't have enough people joining their military to sustain their military activities. Many people (most notably the barbarians) despised them. And perhaps more I haven't thought of.

What I want to know, is how can we change our course through time so as to not end up as the Romans did.

Edit: I put this in philosophy, because I recalled hearing someone in a philosophy class comparing how George Bush is similar to a chair, and comparisons are philosophical.

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Originally Posted by Schmaven

How is the USA similar to ancient Rome?

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We both had our turn at ruling this bitch.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/earth_1_apollo17.gif

Let's not..
Die / go insane from lead poisoning
Have all our citizens join the military and go off conquering whatever they please. (Or so this is what I heard, all the slaves had the other jobs. Once in the military they felt they had no loyalty to Rome so did whatever they wanted, etc.)
Elect insane rulers
Throw all the smart people out from political arenas.
Allow people to slaughter each other in stadiums.
Allow insane nutcases to pick us apart from the outside.
Lose all sense of unity and direction as to decay from inside.
...etc.

Even then, we'll still probably fall. Given enough time. I mean... anything can happen, right?

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Originally Posted by GestaltAlteration

I mean... anything can happen, right?

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http://xrlq.com/Images/9-11%20(1).bmp

Yes, anything can happen.

^someone thinks they're clever.

Anyways, the only major similarity between Rome and the US truly is this: we both take any influence from the outside and adapt it to our own needs. Sure Rome did dominate and kill too much, but they also didnt just erradicate all cultures, they would investigate them and find what practical uses from their way of life they could.

But yes, when they fell, the reasons stated above are very much right, plus they stopped using outside influences.

It seems to me that when most people make this comparison they are just trying to say the US is bad and its going to fall yadda yadda yadda. It use to be creative, but its not anymore.

Both were attacked by barbarians. Ahem.

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Originally Posted by GestaltAlteration

Let's not..
Die / go insane from lead poisoning -In Progress
Have all our citizens join the military and go off conquering whatever they please. -Too Late
Elect insane rulers -Too Late
Throw all the smart people out from political arenas. -Too Late
Allow people to slaughter each other in stadiums. -Too Late
Allow insane nutcases to pick us apart from the outside. -Too Late
Lose all sense of unity and direction as to decay from inside. -In Progress

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Great start though.

And we both have holidays which are only excuses to have orgies?

Yes.

If I remember correctly, we both hold elections on days that people have to work. Even though restrictions on this exist, you still have that symbolic of bias towards the rich ruling the government.

The only difference is a little technology. People that like to think we live in a more civilized world are only fooling themselves. Roman empire crashed and burned. British empire crashed and burned. The American empire will crash and burn too, eventually.

Now some of you are going to be like "ZOMG AMERICAN EMPIRE WE DONT LIVE IN AN EMPIRE." Yes... Yes, we do. Empire building is done through economics now, not by sword and shield. There is more human suffering in this world right now than any other time in human history. This is American corporations hard at work - to make more for themselves and less for everyone else.

Ah yes, todays world is also filled with a lot more "illusions". The "illusion" of security, the "illusion" of safety, the "illusion" of having choice. You have no choice. You have owners. Get used to it.

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There is more human suffering in this world right now than any other time in human history.

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Woah, so technology really doesn't lessen suffering? So back in prehistoric times before we had medicine and suffered from diseases and issues that technology didn't help us with, we were more better off? :?

You're only thinking of the TINY fraction of this planets population that even has access to this medicine your talking about.

The quality of human life has been risen dramatically over the majority of the planet, though some places have had a more significant increase than others. We don't all have to forage for food and fight wild animals all the time. I'm sure places like poverty-stricken Africa have SOME medicine as well.

Remember, 50% of this planets population lives on LESS than $2 dollars a day. I doubt these poor bastards are getting the medicare they need. This isn't even including the hundreds of thousands of people in developed countries like the US of A can't even afford. You want to be healthy? Fork out the fuckin' cash then!

And 100% of Starbucks charge MORE than $5 for a cup of coffee!

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefme...2/T642884A.jpg

Beats

http://www.donsmaps.com/clickphotos/hut.jpg

Any day of the week. The world has changed.

You`re speaking way too generally. The quality of life in lots of parts of this world have been declining steadily for a while. Especially since the rise of the american empire. Sure, your neigborhood is looking good. Let`s go ask the people in indonesia, africa, south america, and all the other places that american corporations have completely, utterly taken advantage of for their own greedy desires and see what they say.

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Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

You`re speaking way too generally. The quality of life in lots of parts of this world have been declining steadily for a while. Especially since the rise of the american empire. Sure, your neigborhood is looking good. Let`s go ask the people in indonesia, africa, south america, and all the other places that american corporations have completely, utterly taken advantage of for their own greedy desires and see what they say.

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You're right and you're wrong. You're correct that American imperialism has fucked the world. But it's not the corporations so much as the combination of corporations and guns. If it was just business, then people would have stopped doing business with the abusive companies a long time ago. It's that they are forced at gunpoint by their governments, that gives them problems.

Indonesia. Africa. South America.

Don't tell me these places had cities to begin with before the age of commercialism! Saying the world is worse now than it was in the past is a hippie/anarchist way of thinking. America isn't the best of nations. But America has changed the world for better and for worse.

I think both of you have good valid points, but America has done good and bad. The idealism of America has been the same as every other empire. Americans think that when they do something to another nation, they are helping them. Every empire has said that. Every empire (just about) has suffered from corruption which ultimately (or helped) lead to its demise. The big thing about today like was said before was about the coorperations and how they have more power than some countries. (Walmart, Microsoft, ect). They are like leeches or parasites, feeding off the people and countries from which they reside in.

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been? its alright we know where youve been.
Youve been in the pipeline, filling in time, provided with toys and
scouting for boys.
You bought a guitar to punish your ma,
And you didnt like school, and you know youre nobodys fool,
So welcome to the machine.

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
What did you dream? its alright we told you what to dream.
You dreamed of a big star, he played a mean guitar,
He always ate in the steak bar. he loved to drive in his jaguar.
So welcome to the machine.


Let's hope it's not to late to stop this machine.

The USA is becomming more and more similar to Nazi Germany if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Danciu

Woah, so technology really doesn't lessen suffering? So back in prehistoric times before we had medicine and suffered from diseases and issues that technology didn't help us with, we were more better off? :?

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It depends on how you quantify suffering. In prehistoric times, there were no plagues because no one lived close enough to each other to cause pandemic spread of disease. In prehistoric times, there was no instantaneous first degree burns due to phosphorus shells or napalm. There was no radiation poisoning or carcinogenic chemicals in the water supply.

Once you come up with an accurate way to quantify suffering, you might find that it has actually increased. At the very least, it has stayed roughly the same.

No cancer or Aids either,.. and all of that.

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

The USA is becomming more and more similar to Nazi Germany if you ask me.

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Honestly, are you afraid we are going to take over Canada and Mexico and exterminate all of their non-whites? Is that concept realistic at all?

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Originally Posted by dajo

No cancer or Aids either,.. and all of that.

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I'm pretty sure cancer was around back in the days of the Roman empire, the Romans were simply unable to describe it separately of other diseases. Not all carcinogens are manmade. AIDS was around(but unidentified) unless the paranoid people that think AIDS is a recently engineered virus happen to be correct.

Well, first the Amero will be introduced and provide a singular currency for north america, and from there Mexico and Canada will be assimilated into the United States. It's not about whites and non-white's anymore. It's about the super rich and the rest of us. However, the people at the top probably see us in a similar way Hitler viewed the Jews.

Don't seem too wild to me.

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Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Mexico and Canada will be assimilated into the United States.

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That would be pretty mind blowing. When do you think it is going to happen?

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Originally Posted by Licity

I'm pretty sure cancer was around back in the days of the Roman empire, the Romans were simply unable to describe it separately of other diseases. Not all carcinogens are manmade. AIDS was around(but unidentified) unless the paranoid people that think AIDS is a recently engineered virus happen to be correct.

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AIDS was not around that time, HIV evolved lately, around the last 100 years or so.

Vira evolve fast, there could be a new virus made right now.
Cancer has always been around.

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Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

HIV evolved

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Stop spreading the lies of Satan. Have you ever seen a gorilla give birth to a human? I don't think you or anybody else has ever seen the Hispanic or Asian version of a gorilla either. Whatever. :roll:

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Stop spreading the lies of Satan. Have you ever seen a gorilla give birth to a human? I don't think you or anybody else has ever seen the Hispanic or Asian version of a gorilla either. Whatever. :roll:

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Someone with knowledge of biology teach this guy..

The first documented case of HIV was made in 1959.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../391594a0.html

What the fuck are you talking about, gorilla giving birth to a human, are you high?

Read:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib..._0/medicine_04
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis (how a animal disease can spred to humans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_AIDS

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Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Someone with knowledge of biology teach this guy..

The first documented case of HIV was made in 1959.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../391594a0.html

What the fuck are you talking about, gorilla giving birth to a human, are you high?

Read:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib..._0/medicine_04
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis (how a animal disease can spred to humans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_AIDS

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Oh, so now an amoeba gave birth to a human, and it just exploded from nothingness like a big fireworks stand. You and your magic... :poof:

:shakehead2:

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Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Cancer has always been around.

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But the cancer-rates have been increasing like hell.. so..
Most things that cause cancer have not been around as much.

and I was refering to the 'prehistoric times' anyway.

Each timeframe has its own problems/illnesses/stuff.

(I picked your post, but meant to respond in general to the medicin thing)

Specialis, I test this theory out a lot, and I KNOW of its realistic nature. It is very real and very common.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law

:chuckle:

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Specialis, I test this theory out a lot, and I KNOW of its realistic nature. It is very real and very common.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law

:chuckle:

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http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/2...0baa512314.jpg

The only people who ever think what I am saying is satire are people who already know my religious beliefs. Aside from them, 100% of people so far who responded to me thought I was serious. Only one of them ended up calling Poe's Law on what I was saying, and it was after a very long exchange. It is hard to make satire of fundamentalism look like satire.

All powerful civilizations have similarities and all eventually fall out of power. No one really stays the "ultimate" power forever, eventually someone else will come along and it'll be their time. The US can't stay on top forever but when our time is up, we can at least come down gracefully.

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Ancient Romans exploited resources gathered from all around for their pleasures. They were nearly always at war, and not for what I would consider good reasons. The citizens expected to not have to do much actual work. They didn't have enough people joining their military to sustain their military activities. Many people (most notably the barbarians) despised them. And perhaps more I haven't thought of.

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Are these the similarities you're pointing out?
If it is well then you've got a few things wrong.

The part about the citizens not expected to do much work that's not true in terms of the US. In fact we're probably the most over worked group of people in the Western world. In Europe and the UK they get holidays (weeks off), the actually get time off. In the US we get time off but to get paid time off most people have to have worked a certain amount of hours to build up their vacation time. For national holidays we generally only get one day off and it's THAT day. Obviously not everyone gets off because there are many businesses that are open on holidays too.

We have one of biggest military out there (that's kind of our "thing". We're a military power).

Of course many people despise us but many people also despise the Chinese and French. The US is just more out there, our products and media is all over the world (we reach more people thus more people are able to hate us. :) ).

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Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

The only difference is a little technology. People that like to think we live in a more civilized world are only fooling themselves. Roman empire crashed and burned. British empire crashed and burned. The American empire will crash and burn too, eventually.

Now some of you are going to be like "ZOMG AMERICAN EMPIRE WE DONT LIVE IN AN EMPIRE." Yes... Yes, we do. Empire building is done through economics now, not by sword and shield. There is more human suffering in this world right now than any other time in human history. This is American corporations hard at work - to make more for themselves and less for everyone else.

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America resembles the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Honestly, are you afraid we are going to take over Canada and Mexico and exterminate all of their non-whites? Is that concept realistic at all?

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Haha I agree, talk about crazy liberals lol

Lol, I wish I could talk in person. The singular currency isn't too far off. As for assimilation, probably not, the people just wouldn't stand for it.

But back to more wild conspisary....The USA IS the roman empire!!! oo0o0oo0o0ooo0o0o0o0

All I can tell you is like Rome America will fall from the inside within the ranks. Corruption and greed will ultimately break our backs, and it will happen without us realizing until it is to late.

This is one way i could imagine-

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not traitor, he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared." - Cicero, 42 B.C.

Rome mostly fell because its rulers and institutions were putting short-term ambition and personal survival over the wider good of the state from what I hear.

This seems to be happening in the good old US of A as well, but on more of a financial and resource management level.

America/Europe fights war to steal oil, diamonds, and all goodies from Africa, the most resourceful but yet poorest contintent on the world. The Africans have no weapons to fight back except for the weapons they bought from America/Europe. There are no weapon factories in Africa or the middle-east. People in Africa are dying from starvation while people in America/Europe are dying from obesitas.

Still up until this day, Belgium for example still uses slaves in Africa for it's chocolate. "Slave-free"-Chocolate has been banned out of the stores because the Judge ruled that "There is no such thing as slave-free chocolate".

This world has now officialy gone insane. There is no war going on, this is pure genocide and enslavement. Why? Out of hate? No.. only because we want a bigger TV... LOL!

I don't think the United States has any similarities to ancient Rome, but I do see a lot of similarities to the Roman Republic.

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Originally Posted by Dreamworld

Haha I agree, talk about crazy liberals lol

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What is it with americans and generalising people as "liberals"

I hear this everywhere from americans, to american tv etc.

I'm sure people have far more varied and mixed political views than being able to categorise whole swathes of people into "lol liberals dey stoopid"

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

What is it with americans and generalising people as "liberals"

I hear this everywhere from americans, to american tv etc.

I'm sure people have far more varied and mixed political views than being able to categorise whole swathes of people into "lol liberals dey stoopid"

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That's because Republicans have done a successful job of giving the word "Liberal" a negative connotation.

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Originally Posted by RSFAD

That's because Republicans have done a successful job of giving the word "Liberal" a negative connotation.

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So it's mainly a propogandaish thing?

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Originally Posted by RSFAD

I don't think the United States has any similarities to ancient Rome, but I do see a lot of similarities to the Roman Republic.

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Is this supposed to mean that the United States are not imperialistic?

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Originally Posted by dajo

Is this supposed to mean that the United States are not imperialistic?

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Depends, in the sense of traditional no. But economically, yes I would agree with you.

Also, sorry I didn't meant to say "there's no similarities between ancient Rome and US. Sure there's a lot of parallels with Ancient Rome. What I was trying to say was I more concerned about our similarities with the Roman Republic. Personally, that worries me. If you look at the history of the Roman Republic, and compare it to the US. Some very big concerns should start popping up.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh, so now an amoeba gave birth to a human, and it just exploded from nothingness like a big fireworks stand. You and your magic... :poof:

:shakehead2:

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How do people still not know your sarcasm??

My goodness.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

So it's mainly a propogandaish thing?

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It's typical Republican tactics...

Just look at "obamacare" , they always take words or make new ones that are meant to be negative.. than constantly repeat themselves.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

How do people still not know your sarcasm??

My goodness.

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I have learned that Poe's Law is extremely hard to get around. Christian fundamentalism is so incredibly absurd that it is practically impossible to satirize it in a way that makes the satirical nature obvious. Everybody who doesn't know me thinks I am being serious when I get sarcastic like that. I think the power of Poe's Law speaks volumes about just how insane Christian fundamentalism is.

Techno all great empires fall evetually. We aren't going to stay on top forever. Maybe we'll be on top for both me and your whole lifetime but not forever. And to say we will is both very ignorant and arrogant for you to say.

Some guy called Art Bell's show Coast to Coast in the 90's and said that it has been kept secret for many decades that the most powerful force in the world is still the British Empire and that they are scheming to take over. I love stuff like that. I was a Coast to Coast addict when Art Bell was the main host.

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Originally Posted by Xaqaria

It depends on how you quantify suffering. In prehistoric times, there were no plagues because no one lived close enough to each other to cause pandemic spread of disease. In prehistoric times, there was no instantaneous first degree burns due to phosphorus shells or napalm. There was no radiation poisoning or carcinogenic chemicals in the water supply.

Once you come up with an accurate way to quantify suffering, you might find that it has actually increased. At the very least, it has stayed roughly the same.

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:lol:

1. No plagues?
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...been_infil.php

2. People lived very close to each other because it facilitated survival.
i.e HUNTING and BUILDING SHELTER.

3. Instantaneous first degree burns --> Heard of SUNBURN.

4. Radiation carcinogenic chemicals (especially in water): Potyviruses

It is always a good idea to research before you post and corrupt other peoples minds... tisk tisk

'It is our turn.
Our turn to do what?
Our turn to assume the responsibilities of moral leadership in the world.
Our turn to maintain a balance of power against the forces of evil everywhere — in Europe and Asia and Africa, in the Atlantic and in the Pacific, by air and by sea — evil in this case being the Russian barbarian.
Our turn to keep the peace of the world.
Our turn to save civilization.
Our turn to serve mankind.
But this is the language of Empire. The Roman Empire never doubted that it was the defender of civilization. Its good intentions were peace, law and order. The Spanish Empire added salvation. The British Empire added the noble myth of the white man's burden. We have added freedom and democracy. Yet the more that may be added to it the more it is the same language still. A language of power.'

- Garet Garrett The People's Pottage

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Originally Posted by Dreams4free

:lol:

1. No plagues?
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...been_infil.php

2. People lived very close to each other because it facilitated survival.
i.e HUNTING and BUILDING SHELTER.

3. Instantaneous first degree burns --> Heard of SUNBURN.

4. Radiation carcinogenic chemicals (especially in water): Potyviruses

It is always a good idea to research before you post and corrupt other peoples minds... tisk tisk

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1. The bornavirus is not a plague. A plague is defined as "a severe and potentially deadly bacterial infection." Viruses cannot be plagues.

2. Hunter gatherer communities may have lived in close proximity to each other as far as one hut directly next to another hut, but there are roughly 48,000 people per square mile in Macau, China right now. Do you really think hunter gatherer communities compare in any way to that kind of population density?

3. Well, sunburns are hardly instantaneous, but you are right; I did make a mistake. Phosphorous causes instantaneous 3rd (or worse) degree burns. We're talking flesh melting agents falling from the sky. I guess you could cite volcanic eruptions here, but those are not a very frequent occurrence compared with modern warfare.

4. Had to look up potyvirus. Not sure if you know this or not, but not only is a virus not a plague, it is also not chemical radiation. I also was unable to find anything saying that prehistoric plant viruses caused cancer. Care to source that assertion for me?

As for your last statement; right back atcha.

I don't think physical suffering has increased. It's a pretty easy problem to solve, just look at the trend in lifespan.

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Originally Posted by Xei

I don't think physical suffering has increased. It's a pretty easy problem to solve, just look at the trend in lifespan.

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A longer life could easily mean more time spent suffering. How do you quantify suffering?

Note that I did make a point of specifying physical suffering; I don't know what we can say about trends on mental suffering.

You can't assign a number to physical suffering, but clearly it's correlated to adverse conditions, such as disease, lack of food, shelter, hazardous conditions such as local violence, etcetera, which are correlated to a shorter life span.

Yay! Random military facts time! (Rather than the darker political discussion going on right now...)

Fact- Rome was the first military to invent a system of Enlisted, NCO, and Officer similar to what America uses today.

Fact- The Roman army Commander and Cheif was a politician.

Fact- Roman soldiers retired with a very nice retirement after 20 years.

Fact- Rome used a similar organization of squad, platoon, unit, battalion, corps. to that of modern America.

Fact- Roman's would execute one tenth of a unit if someone in that unit deserted.

Coincidence?

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Originally Posted by spockman

Yay! Random military facts time! (Rather than the darker political discussion going on right now...)

Fact- Rome was the first military to invent a system of Enlisted, NCO, and Officer similar to what America uses today.

Fact- The Roman army Commander and Cheif was a politician.

Fact- Roman soldiers retired with a very nice retirement after 20 years.

Fact- Rome used a similar organization of squad, platoon, unit, battalion, corps. to that of modern America.

Fact- Roman's would execute one tenth of a unit if someone in that unit deserted.

Coincidence?

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Fact, Greeco-Roman influences are the basic structure of western culture. :panic:

Honestly, what are you trying to devise? A conspiracy theory?

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Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Fact, Greeco-Roman influences are the basic structure of western culture. :panic:

Honestly, what are you trying to devise? A conspiracy theory?

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No, I'm just answering the OP in a lighter manner than most people. Because it's interesting to me not just how many big things we have in common but how many little things. But sure, I could devise a conspiracy theory from it. Those are fun.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Note that I did make a point of specifying physical suffering; I don't know what we can say about trends on mental suffering.

You can't assign a number to physical suffering, but clearly it's correlated to adverse conditions, such as disease, lack of food, shelter, hazardous conditions such as local violence, etcetera, which are correlated to a shorter life span.

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Although this may be true, it does not include the whole picture. What of the people who spend much longer amounts of time hooked up to dialysis machines, or going through radiation therapy who would have just died at an earlier age in the past? There are many instances in which modern medicine prolongs people's lives but doesn't necessarily reduce their physical suffering. One can also argue that the number of possible ways to suffer physically have drastically increased over the course of history. Think about people in Nagasaki and Hiroshima (and Chernobyl, etc.) who are still suffering from the effects of nuclear radiation years after the initial conditions were set in motion.

Not only that, one could argue that if it were possible to really quantify physical suffering an increase in population alone would raise the 'suffering quotient'. More people = more suffering.