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    1. #226
      Member Belisarius's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Inferno
      of course there is no difference between faith in gravity, reality, god, insane conspiracy theories about insects ruling the world, whatever...
      But what happened to keeping your feet on the ground?

      I mean, do a \"reality check \" once in a while in your thinking. if you don't, you can just give up thinking about anything because \"nothing is certain\"... you'll just lay there getting nowhere, since everything you think about is equally in value (or lack of it) and nothing is real
      You can't discard doubt simply because it hinders your ability to accomplish your goals(which is what all people of extreme faith do). It would be like me asserting that the holocaust was a zionist hoax, and ignoring the volumes of evidence to the contrary because I'm an anti-semite.

      Well then I can go and say \"what defines an objective, physical, and scientifically-explained universe?\" You can't define it really, because \"fake\" and \"real\" don't apply to what is percieved, even if two seperate people's perceptions don't match up exactly. I just sense what I sense, and that's all there is to it. I don't waste my time thinking \"well what if it's all just an illusion (again, hard-to-define word), nothing really exists ect.\", because that kind of thinking doesn't ever get anywhere. It just doesn't mean anything.[/b]
      "Fake" and "real" might not apply to perception, but "accurate" and "inaccurate" certainly do, unless you assert that there is no objective universe which is in denial of causeality and eventually leads to soliphism. Again you discount doubt because it hinders your ability to reach a decisive conclusion about the external universe, not because it is logically flawed.

    2. #227
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      Originally posted by Belisarius
      But you must trust those senses, that takes a degree of faith.
      I trust my senses because they have helped keep me alive for years, and waking reality has remained extremely consistent throughout those years, making my memory of it very reliable. But perhaps I'm waking up in a different reality each day anyway? I don't see the point in actually believing that. If all this is not real, am I going to wake up as God one day? I have no reason to believe that's ever going to happen.
      FaatFaat

    3. #228
      Member jags's Avatar
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      BELIEF and FAITH are for people who are weak and dont really care or want to know if there is a GOD or not...

      If you want to KNOW if there is rock eating 2 tail monkeys on the planet ZARG then get off your ARSE and go there!!

      That is of course if you BELIEVE inter planetary space travel is possible; did you BELIEVE LDs existed before you had one?

      Having the human form is a FANTASTIC facility for exploring the UNKNOWN and lets face it, what we DONT KNOW is probably a lot more than what we DO KNOW!

      In the realm of the UNKNOWN there is no such thing As BELIEF, you,ll have to fend for yourself at the moment of death and and in the battle of life and death only one thing matters....STRENGTH!

    4. #229
      Member Placebo's Avatar
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      Originally posted by jags
      [b]BELIEF and FAITH are for people who are weak and dont really care or want to know if there is a GOD or not...

      If you want to KNOW if there is rock eating 2 tail monkeys on the planet ZARG then get off your ARSE and go there!!
      Let me know when you get back from your trip to the heavens... I'd like to hear all about it
      Tips For Newbies | What to do in an LD

      Unless otherwise stated, views expressed in this post are not necessarily representative of the official Dream Views stance. Hell, it's probably not even representative of me.

    5. #230
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      I personally don't believe there is a God or higher power. I have my reasons for believing this too. But I respect everybody nomatter what their beliefs are.
      poopThe Smell.

    6. #231
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      Belisarius>>

      I don't discard doubt, quite the opposite. it lies behind every thought, but I know where to draw the line. when it sounds too wild: "belief in gravity is equal to belief in god..." I get myself back on tracks.... in theory there is nothing wrong with your statement (actually in some ways there is), but you know what I mean.

      So you are anti-semite? I don't care wether you are or not, but It would be interesting to hear why somebody with your reality-sense can discriminate a whole group of people?

    7. #232
      Member Belisarius's Avatar
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      Originally posted by FaatFaat+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FaatFaat)</div>
      <!--QuoteBegin-Belisarius
      But you must trust those senses, that takes a degree of faith.
      I trust my senses because they have helped keep me alive for years, and waking reality has remained extremely consistent throughout those years, making my memory of it very reliable. But perhaps I'm waking up in a different reality each day anyway? I don't see the point in actually believing that. If all this is not real, am I going to wake up as God one day? I have no reason to believe that's ever going to happen.[/b]
      But in order to know that reality is consistant you must trust the accuracy of your memory which you must admit isn't perfectly accurate(if at all).

      I don't discard doubt, quite the opposite. it lies behind every thought, but I know where to draw the line. when it sounds too wild: \"belief in gravity is equal to belief in god...\" I get myself back on tracks.... in theory there is nothing wrong with your statement (actually in some ways there is), but you know what I mean.

      So you are anti-semite? I don't care wether you are or not, but It would be interesting to hear why somebody with your reality-sense can discriminate a whole group of people?[/b]
      You must admit that you have no real logical basis for your discretion, just obscure "common sense"(which told us the world was flat and that there was a giant ocean in the sky).

      No I'm not an anti-semite, I was writing as if I were an anti-semite. Usually anti-semites, like socialists, oppressed but proud people(as in most Western Democracies), and other people who have labels with negative connotations avoid describing themselves with those labels.

    8. #233
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      Originally posted by FaatFaat+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FaatFaat)</div>
      I trust my senses because they have helped keep me alive for years, and waking reality has remained extremely consistent throughout those years, making my memory of it very reliable. But perhaps I'm waking up in a different reality each day anyway? I don't see the point in actually believing that. If all this is not real, am I going to wake up as God one day? I have no reason to believe that's ever going to happen.[/b]
      <!--QuoteBegin-Belisarius


      But in order to know that reality is consistant you must trust the accuracy of your memory which you must admit isn't perfectly accurate(if at all).
      Memory of events aren't always accurate, that has been found to be true. But one's memory of everyday things is reliable enough to trust that physical reality is very consistent. Have you got a solid reason to doubt your everyday memory? The main point is that it's pointless to consider accepting physical reality as not real. Without the philosophical analysis, physical reality is the most real experience because it doesn't take any belief or conscious will to experience it again and again, everyday. If I accept that physical reality is not real, then I would have to have a consistent belief in place in order to experience that as real, and my belief would not be backed up by any worthy evidence.
      FaatFaat

    9. #234
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      yes, I agree with you faatfaat

    10. #235
      xer iz bû ŵun konyisnis. Stevehattan's Avatar
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      Me too. Also, I just wonder that if what 99.99% of humans are perceiving every day isn't true reality, what is, and what is the difference between that reality and the one we're percieving? What makes one more correct/real/accurate/consistent than the other? Not only do I doubt there is an actual answer to that question (which is why I don't bother contemplating what "reality" is anymore), but if there is, we will never be able to discover it (sort of like how you can't prove god's there if he never makes it obvious).
      ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

    11. #236
      Member Belisarius's Avatar
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      Originally posted by FaatFaat+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FaatFaat)</div>
      Originally posted by FaatFaat@

      I trust my senses because they have helped keep me alive for years, and waking reality has remained extremely consistent throughout those years, making my memory of it very reliable. But perhaps I'm waking up in a different reality each day anyway? I don't see the point in actually believing that. If all this is not real, am I going to wake up as God one day? I have no reason to believe that's ever going to happen.
      <!--QuoteBegin-Belisarius

      But in order to know that reality is consistant you must trust the accuracy of your memory which you must admit isn't perfectly accurate(if at all).
      Memory of events aren't always accurate, that has been found to be true. But one's memory of everyday things is reliable enough to trust that physical reality is very consistent. Have you got a solid reason to doubt your everyday memory? The main point is that it's pointless to consider accepting physical reality as not real. Without the philosophical analysis, physical reality is the most real experience because it doesn't take any belief or conscious will to experience it again and again, everyday. If I accept that physical reality is not real, then I would have to have a consistent belief in place in order to experience that as real, and my belief would not be backed up by any worthy evidence.[/b]
      Have you got a solid reason to trust everyday memory that doesn't rely on memory itself?

      So far the only reasons you've given me to believe in the scientific explanation of the world is the same as that religious people give me to follow their religion. It just is because we say so, or beacause it "feels" right, or that it's inconvienient to believe otherwise. I have yet to see any hard logic behind your beliefs.

    12. #237
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Belisarius
      I have yet to see any hard logic behind your beliefs.
      How can you put any trust in logic? In fact, how can you put any trust in the fact that the words you type on the keyboard to respond to these posts ever get to us? Or that they arrive in the same ordered manner as you send them? How do you know I or anyone else in this forum exists?

      You don't, but you choose to continue to respond anyways. Funny.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    13. #238
      Member Belisarius's Avatar
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      There's nothing funny about it, you could say it is just random but that wouldn't be very honest. I still act as if physical laws apply, but I admit I have no knowledge of the external universe, but act because it is the best explanation I yet have.

    14. #239
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      Originally posted by Belisarius+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Belisarius)</div>
      Originally posted by FaatFaat+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FaatFaat)
      <!--QuoteBegin-FaatFaat
      @

      I trust my senses because they have helped keep me alive for years, and waking reality has remained extremely consistent throughout those years, making my memory of it very reliable. But perhaps I'm waking up in a different reality each day anyway? I don't see the point in actually believing that. If all this is not real, am I going to wake up as God one day? I have no reason to believe that's ever going to happen.
      <!--QuoteBegin-Belisarius

      But in order to know that reality is consistant you must trust the accuracy of your memory which you must admit isn't perfectly accurate(if at all).
      Memory of events aren't always accurate, that has been found to be true. But one's memory of everyday things is reliable enough to trust that physical reality is very consistent. Have you got a solid reason to doubt your everyday memory? The main point is that it's pointless to consider accepting physical reality as not real. Without the philosophical analysis, physical reality is the most real experience because it doesn't take any belief or conscious will to experience it again and again, everyday. If I accept that physical reality is not real, then I would have to have a consistent belief in place in order to experience that as real, and my belief would not be backed up by any worthy evidence.[/b]
      Have you got a solid reason to trust everyday memory that doesn't rely on memory itself?

      So far the only reasons you've given me to believe in the scientific explanation of the world is the same as that religious people give me to follow their religion. It just is because we say so, or beacause it \"feels\" right, or that it's inconvienient to believe otherwise. I have yet to see any hard logic behind your beliefs.[/b][/quote]


      Hmmm. I'm still alive. I know how to get what I want. I know how to avoid what I don't want to experience. I can predict certain happenings. If I couldn't trust my everyday memory, I suppose I wouldn't be sure of these things, not to mention right (in my predictions/expectations a great deal of the time.
      FaatFaat

    15. #240
      Member cenedra14's Avatar
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      Great topic!

      I dont believe in god - I'm an athiest. Most wars in the world are caused by religion, that's pretty scary to me. But I admit I wish I did believe, or had proof - because it's a lovely thought going to heaven - so you people who do believe, you are very lucky - I envy you.

      To me though (and yes I've read the bible) it's all a story made up to comfort the masses, a crutch to get through life for some people. My own humble opinion only, so no offence to anyone.

    16. #241
      Member megalopsychos's Avatar
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      Belief in the Christian God seems to me very much unbelievable. Thus, i suppose i'd call myself an agnostic existentialist (bar the theory about no human nature), or maybe even a nihilist - though not pessimistic. I support nihilism as a justified world view only to the extent that true knowledge is unattainable (i.e. technically/logically the cogito - solipsism - is unavoidable), and this is in no way tied to pessimism. If anything, such existentialist nihilist doubt promotes optimism (much moreso than pessimism) in the freedom of unbound, unbelieving existence. Faith, i attach to a weakness of the will (sound familiar? it's reasonable to steal others' views if they're correct), to an irrational desire to be commanded (by faith, belief). Thus it is in non-belief (not disbelief) of God, strength and free-will is attainable. In detaching myself from the restrictions of faith i can be more free than any believer, and more truthful to reality than any metaphysician.

      As there is no proof or logical support in our world (as this forum has done well to display) of the necessary existence of a Christian God, and there is similarly no proof of God's non-existence, the only logical position for me to hold is that logical middle-ground - doubtful, nihilistic, yet honest, natural and real agnosticism.

      For those of you who have this need for certainty of which i speak, faith is a solution, but not the best. Why reduce your own will (which is surely the individuated essence of your existence) to be commanded by scripture and insitutions? Is it not your life to be lived, with your thoughts to be shielded from their susceptibility to pseudo-truths? Rather than being commanded by faith in a metaphysical and entirely unknown God, you'll live a better life of free happiness if you abandon the anxious need for certainty, and practice doubt. Practice contemplation, and expand free will.

    17. #242
      Member Belisarius's Avatar
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      It sounds like you and I agree about many things.

      How exactly did you arrive at existentialism and free will from what seems to me to be skepticism?

    18. #243
      Member jags's Avatar
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      Even if I call myself an alien buddha existentialmystic christian nihilist, it still means I dont really know who I am.....

      He Who has not the privelige of knowing his true identity is not a free man and is forced to believe...


    19. #244
      Member Ghost's Avatar
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      The thing i hate is that people seem to assume that if you believe in God you cannot believe i science. Do people really believe that God is an idiot? If he can create the universe i think he could do it in such a way that we could come up with and explination ourselves.

      When god created us he knew that we would be curious intelligent creatures and that we would want to know where we came from. But its not as simple as God showing himself to us so that we can beleive in him, the whole point of religion is that we are supposed to just have "faith" in God without the need for proof.

      So thats my two cent hope that it was insightful!

    20. #245
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      If God created all this, he did a pretty shitty job. Why, for instance, did he wait 13 and a half billion years to introduce humans in the universe?!?! He could have just popped into all into existence right away! Also, why did he create us with a whole bunch of useless vestigial organs in our bodies? Did he have some spare parts and just decide to stuff them somewhere inside of us?

      Examples of Vestigial Organs
      Tonsils
      Adenoids
      Coccyx (tail bone)
      Nictitating membrane of eye
      Thymus
      Appendix
      Little toe
      Wisdom teeth
      Nipples on males
      Parathyroid
      Nodes on ears "Darwin's points"
      Ear muscles for wiggling
      Pineal gland

      Why are our eyes so inefficient? The light has to travel through 7 layers of tissue in the retina before hitting the light sensing cells! Many other organisms have the light-sensing cells on the surface of the retina, where it seems obvious that they should be located.

      Get my drift?
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    21. #246
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      Well, I am agnostic so the question isn't for me, "Why or why don't you believe in God?" but what are aspects that affect your belief or disbelief of a higher power? I became a Christian when I was twelve because where I am from, the Christian-driven southern Bible belt, it is what is expected for someone like me. Everything I had ever been taught had been based on the fact that there was a Christian God who knew everything that happened and would happen and had a "master plan" which involved Jesus Christ dying for everyone's sins. Since then, however, I have begun to question my faith. While I would really like to believe that a god exists, although I don't deny it completely and am open to anything, there are just too many contradictions for me to believe in this Christian God. For example, one of the most common paradoxes created by a God who knows everyone's steps before you are even born is this: How can a human being truly have free will if God controls everything we do and knows every step we will take and every decision we will make? Another problem I have found is how can "loving, merciful God" cause so much hatred and horrible killing between his creations? And why is it that he makes it possible for people to die such horrible deaths as some do? I understand that people have to die in both a religous and secular world, but how could a lord who loves us so unconditionally cause so much pain and disgusting death to his own creations? These are just some things I have trouble understanding, feel free to contradict me.

    22. #247
      Dreamah in ReHaB AirRick101's Avatar
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      Try to understand the contradictions, and how 2 seemingly contradictions can indeed co-exist. Like u said, you're open. There's plenty of paradoxes that are indeed true. Fate exists, but then again, no in different senses. Same goes for time and stuff. They can create endless discussions....

      What pisses me off is when Christians say "There are no contradictions in the Bible, I've read the whole thing!" But at face value, the Bible contradicts itself like a mofo. I may not have direct evidences now, but check out a book called "Losing Faith in Faith" It's a dangerously challenging book to Christians, because it has some good points, as well as some idiotically narrow-minded atheist views, hehe. But nonetheless, very intelligent arguments. I think it's good for Christians to get anti-Christian material, either to help their apologetics or to reconsider if their religion is for them. You must use your imagination to create a context acceptable to you for the Bible. Back then, in the ancient ages, I'm sure their terminology didn't seem so harsh. And I don't think they cared about technicalities about laws in the Bible and theology. People nowadays just don't seem to understand (including me), so people like us are hesistant to change terms through euphemisms, probably due to reading verses like the ones that talk about God giving curses. Insecurity grows around the Bible over time, but as well as healthy faith. But now, we are in a generation that gets in touch with our feelings so much more, and we're sensitive to crap like that. Ya...so.
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

    23. #248
      explore Demerzel's Avatar
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      because
      [22:59] <Kaniaz> You basically did a massive shit on the rug of this IRC
      [22:59] <Kaniaz> And called it a message

    24. #249
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Originally posted by AirRick101
      Fate exists, but then again, no in different senses. Same goes for time and stuff.
      That's quite the statement. I'm still wondering how you came to that assumption and what you mean by "and stuff".






      (Sorry if that comment is too off topic.)
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



      The Emancipator MySpace

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