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    1. #26
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      I am not lost in semantics. I am asking whether you see digital organisms as being alive in the same sense that you consider an animal or bacterium to be alive.

      What aren't you understanding?

      This is either a yes/ no. I'm not asking what your definition of life is. Or whether you think that the universe is a simulation. I am asking whether Dgiital Organisms fit your own view of life.

    2. #27
      Antagonist Invader's Avatar
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      Xei, I think he was just asking whether you think the digital organisms are alive or not, according to your own definition of what life is.

    3. #28
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      What do you mean, in the same sense?? There is only one 'sense' in which something can be alive, which is that it fulfils the criteria for life.

    4. #29
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      And do they fit your criteria?

    5. #30
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      I don't have a personal set of criteria.

      It also depends on what kind of 'digital organism' you're looking at. If for example it constantly changed its own genotype in response to its environment, it wouldn't really be life according to anybody's definition, because it doesn't reproduce, which is fairly crucial.

      I wouldn't really consider those things in that program life, because they don't really form cells as there isn't really any external or internal environment, as they're effectively points with no area, nor do they perform homeostasis etcetera.

    6. #31
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      Okay then.

    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by esfx View Post
      I don't think 'linear' means what you think it means.
      ...And?

      That which is linear is limited, measurable, logical, sequential, predictable, objective, etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      So... we just make a computer-brain. Will that make a difference? Is there something in our brain that makes us different?
      What do you mean? Different from computer processing in general?

      Quote Originally Posted by invader_tech View Post
      I was under the assumption our universe worked according to the same principles? Can you explain the difference?
      Sorry, I think you're going to have to re-word this. What do you mean?

      Edit: Oh, do you mean in the sense the process/principles should be reproducible?

      Quote Originally Posted by invader_tech View Post
      I believe sentience implies self awareness, something that no program has reportedly achieved.
      This is because "self-awareness" is an a priori quality of consciousness, beyond any programming or thinking. Thinking or linear sequences occur within the non-linear context.

    8. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      What do you mean? Different from computer processing in general?
      Well yes. I'm no scientist or Electro-technician and I know it's not something you just do. But hey, if we knew how the brain works (roughly), why would making it not be the same as a brain from a living entity? What's stopping it from being sentient?
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    9. #34
      Truth Seeker <span class='glow_9400D3'>LucidDreamGod</span>'s Avatar
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      As long as it obeys all the scientific definitions of life then it is. Life is only a word that is restricted to those principles, the question is only a controversial thing because people like to add there own little requirements for life. Conscious/self awareness/made of carbon are among them, which are not required for life as in its scientific definition.

      And if were sitting here making are own definitions for something, then were really just debating what meaning we should assign to this word, which makes no sense because the word is baseless without its meaning in the first place.
      Last edited by LucidDreamGod; 02-19-2009 at 09:31 PM.



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    10. #35
      I LOVE KAOSSILATOR Serkat's Avatar
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      I don't consider them alive because they're not reproductive in a physical sense. They're reproductive when looked at from a human's point of view, within the system that they were consciously designed for. It's not real in a material sense, only in a mutual-mental-masturbation sense. Originally the word is used to describe a real (i.e. material) process in the physical world by which matter changes.

      If we program a carrot into a computer, is it a carrot? No, it is not. It's just a physical state of a computer, programmed to represent something that could be interpreted as a carrot by a sentient being. That's not a criterion for being a carrot. The actual criterion for being a carrot is whether or not you're a carrot, not whether or not someone thinks you're a carrot.
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    11. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      Well yes. I'm no scientist or Electro-technician and I know it's not something you just do. But hey, if we knew how the brain works (roughly), why would making it not be the same as a brain from a living entity? What's stopping it from being sentient?
      From my understanding, a brain functions within the nonlinear field of consciousness, whereas a program functions within the sequential or linear circuitry of its hardware.

    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      How can a circuit not be nonlinear?
      How can it be nonlinear? If you can program it, route it, read it or sequence it, it is linear.

      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      What did you think a logic circuit was?

      If this, then that, else, this other thing. That isn't linear.
      A logic circuit?

    13. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      From my understanding, a brain functions within the nonlinear field of consciousness, whereas a program functions within the sequential or linear circuitry of its hardware.
      A brain is the hardware. I don't understand. You said the brain functions on consciousness, whereas a program runs on hardware? I don't get it, is a brain conscious or is it the other way around? I always saw it like, Brain=hardware, consciousness="program" if I wanted to make comparisons, not the other way around.
      Isn't the brain the circuitry? What do you mean, the brain works on a nonlinear field of consciousness?
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    14. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      A brain is the hardware. I don't understand. You said the brain functions on consciousness, whereas a program runs on hardware? I don't get it, is a brain conscious or is it the other way around? I always saw it like, Brain=hardware, consciousness="program" if I wanted to make comparisons, not the other way around.
      Isn't the brain the circuitry? What do you mean, the brain works on a nonlinear field of consciousness?
      Ah, sorry. Let me re-explain:

      Consciousness>Mind/Thoughts: Nonlinear>Linear

      As unrelated (Accurate):

      Hardware>Software>Program: All Linear

      As related (inaccurate): Hardware>Software/Programs: Nonlinear>Linear

      Anyway, it probably still doesn't make much sense.


      Let me ask first, have you ever heard of a universal "field", universal mind or quantum "matrix" within which all phenomena arises? Anything even slightly related? Conscioussness is nonlinear, for one reason as it is everywhere present.

    15. #40
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      They're not living.

    16. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Sorry, I think you're going to have to re-word this. What do you mean?

      Edit: Oh, do you mean in the sense the process/principles should be reproducible?
      Apologies. I can be clearer. If we take your original statement:
      "A virtual reality would be limited to the paradigm of causality and logical programming."
      You were making it sound as if this were a defining characteristic of the virtual world that set it apart from our real-physical world. I was hoping you could explain further, as I understand "causality" to mean no more than "cause and effect", and "logical programming" to mean no more than "all equations must balance". Since I'm no programmer, can you tell me in greater detail what those two terms mean that makes them specific only to programs?


      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      This is because "self-awareness" is an a priori quality of consciousness, beyond any programming or thinking. Thinking or linear sequences occur within the non-linear context.
      I agree with the first sentence so far, and don't understand the second one, heh.

      "Thinking or linear sequences occur within the non-linear context."

      How does that work exactly? I'm not arguing this, I just honestly don't know. If the explanation is too lengthy, any recommendations for a good article regarding this in particle will do.

    17. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by Invader Tech View Post
      Apologies. I can be clearer. If we take your original statement:
      "A virtual reality would be limited to the paradigm of causality and logical programming."
      You were making it sound as if this were a defining characteristic of the virtual world that set it apart from our real-physical world. I was hoping you could explain further, as I understand "causality" to mean no more than "cause and effect", and "logical programming" to mean no more than "all equations must balance". Since I'm no programmer, can you tell me in greater detail what those two terms mean that makes them specific only to programs?
      Causality is a limited paradigm of science and it is fundamentally related to perception of "events". In a greater context of Reality, causality is non-existent. It is comparable to state gravity as the cause of the apple falling, but gravity can be seen in a greater context to provide potentiality for the "falling". The apple wasn't caused to fall, it merely fell under the right conditions; and the conditions were brought about by an infinite amount of others. The main condition is the gravitational force, however that is not the "cause". The main condition is perceived as holding sequential relationship, but this occurs only within perception.

      Anyway, this is only slightly related to consciousness, which is nonlinear; all-present and absolute. It provides the capacity for subjective "awareness", which is not definable or rational. This is of higher dimension than the objective, linear existence of three; within which the world identifies.

      Programming (software or electrical), although I am unfamiliar with it specifically, functions logically via mathematics. Maths is generally linear; it provides numbers, definitions, measurements, graphs, tables, discrete values, functions, equations and so on. Programming would hold that something needs direct paths and complex patterns of mathematical or symbolic relationship. But how can you program that which is spontaneous? How can you direct something while taking directly into account absolutely everything else that falls within that context? What can decide a chain of events, and within what realm of authority? These are up to the nonlinear field of consciousness, which is not localizable and thusly will encompass all existence, within all life and being. To program or define something like this would be like a small box trying to fill the room it is in, or a person trying to touch the sky upon a long ladder.

      Also, a robotic "organism" may not be able to grow and seek survival, because it did not arise "naturally" as an intelligent consequence of evolution, nor does it hold any consciousness; the capacity to experience and feel.

      A digital simulation is also limited to the context within which it is provided, rendering many simulations as limited and only holding truth to a certain hypothetical extent, and not to a greater, realistic extent. (Edit: I guess I'm emphasizing the importance of quantum reality, over the reality of classical physics, which is more limited and on different scale of observation/phenomena).

      What comes to mind in exception is a "quantum computer", but I doubt its possible existence, and that a human intelligence is capable of "programming" it. Also, a robot (and a human) would be totally different than a human with robotic or electrically compatible parts.

      Quote Originally Posted by Invader Tech View Post
      I agree with the first sentence so far, and don't understand the second one, heh.

      "Thinking or linear sequences occur within the non-linear context."

      How does that work exactly? I'm not arguing this, I just honestly don't know. If the explanation is too lengthy, any recommendations for a good article regarding this in particle will do.
      Coupled with my response above, here is an image I have once shown already:





      I hope this is overall helpful.
      Last edited by really; 02-21-2009 at 01:39 PM.

    18. #43
      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      So it basically comes down to your own personal world-view. Again, there is no difference between a neural network and a technological substitute, even if not possible yet.

      You just believe in some astral souls which chose humans to make godly by giving them consciousness. I believe the consciousness comes from brain activity. That's why I see AI as very plausible and you impossible. And a quantum computer has already been made.
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    19. #44
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      God damnit DuB this is why I posted this thread in the Science board.

    20. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      You just believe in some astral souls which chose humans to make godly by giving them consciousness.
      Who, me? Where have I said this?

      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      I believe the consciousness comes from brain activity. That's why I see AI as very plausible and you impossible. And a quantum computer has already been made.
      A quantum computer, where? What does it do?

    21. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      Who, me? Where have I said this?
      Nowhere, I'm just putting words in your mouth.

      I'm just saying that you decided that the brain works in some field of consciousness. I'm saying that the brain works as a network of neurons and if copied you could make an artificial brain. There is nothing magical about the brain so there should be nothing magical about consciousness in a computer. This last sentence is the statement I'd like you to address. I'm sorry if you have before.

      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      A quantum computer, where? What does it do?
      It works with qbits instead of bits. A bit is a 1 or a 0, a qubit is a 1, 0 or both. Don't ask me anything more, because I wouldn't know.

      wikipedia:Quantum computing
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    22. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      Nowhere, I'm just putting words in your mouth.
      Thanks!

      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      I'm just saying that you decided that the brain works in some field of consciousness. I'm saying that the brain works as a network of neurons and if copied you could make an artificial brain.
      Sure, but what I'm saying is, that is a limitation based upon appearances. Neurons are but one part of the intelligence. They "manifest" out of the field of consciousness, not the other way around.

      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      There is nothing magical about the brain so there should be nothing magical about consciousness in a computer. This last sentence is the statement I'd like you to address. I'm sorry if you have before.
      The last sentence?

      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      It works with qbits instead of bits. A bit is a 1 or a 0, a qubit is a 1, 0 or both. Don't ask me anything more, because I wouldn't know.

      wikipedia:Quantum computing
      Ok, cheers. I'll look into this.

    23. #48
      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      Well I say that a consciousness manifests out of the brain.
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    24. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      Well I say that a consciousness manifests out of the brain.
      Why? Does life manifest out of the brain? It is a really tricky topic. I'd prefer to not type out an essay on it. However, the main points are pretty clear anyway.

    25. #50
      Member Bonsay's Avatar
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      Well the only way I get to see the world points to this. You are dead, then you are born, then you die. The only time you can be conscious is when you have the brain. To the other question - I guess life manifests out of complex chemical reactions.
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