Thread: What is the nature of the will?

go???

go where

Answer the question, I want to know what you all think about the subject.

Maybe we don't have any will. Maybe it just seems as though we do.

Well, I believe that the future already exists, so it isn't really determined by choice -- so the nature of the will is that it isn't "free will".

Free will is such a controversial and paradoxical concept!!

Yes, you can imagine different scenarios and changes, but things can only happen one way, and that's the only way it coulda happened, because it did. So in that specific sense, free will seems like an illusion.

That got me thinking... "the future already exists." I can agree with that. We can be confident that a certain future is already mapped out, because it'll happen in the only way possible. It sort of decreases my compulsion to worry about the future...the idea of inevitibility.

I'm not talking about free or determined will, but will, the will to act.

Well, human progress is pure will. If we look at the evolution on basic man's life, it's come a long way.

Before, humans had to hunt for food, now we got stores all over. Spices were rare, now everyone has salt and pepper on their table.
Before, we would be lucky if we came across a cave to live in. Construction came a long way. These is barely scratching the surface.

The point is that human will continues to be the major driving force in all human life in this physical world. It is apparent in every single issue ever thought of. Religion is human will with regards to progress as well. Everyone is constantly pushing to do better. That is something that will never change. Human will will continue to exist as long as we do...the will to always transcend to better our lives.

is it will?
or should it be renamed 'greed' 'power' or 'fear'?

i believe that there are certain paths that you have to choose - there isn't one set destiny, but it can change with each path that you go down.

but, it's always best to go with the flow.

I like to think of will as the "choice-tree". You start as a child down on the thick part of the tree. As you grow, to a certain point, your action is influence highly by the surroundings you grow up in. This lead you a special way, almost lets say uncontrollable, until you start taking your own choises. In here comes the all the differnt branches on the tree. If you make a choise here you will follow a certain branch. Since you made that choise you will never be able to jump on another branch again. On the branch you on now there are many minor branches and minor underbranches again. Even if you in the middle of the branch there is a leaf at the end, even if you cant see it.
That way there can be many possible futures that exist. But one took that special one and one could say that branch was made to be for me. But maybe in alternativ universe you took on another branch. Maybe abit confusing this. But its my tree choise hypotesis

Let's think of the nature of choices though, Jammy. You say that you have many choices... but in fact you will only ever make one of them. Let's say you think about all the "options" you have for a while... eventually you come to your decision. And I ask you "Could you have chosen one of the other choices?" You would most likely say yes, but how is that possible?

Let me try to explain further. Of course, every effect has a previous cause. Every thought going on in your head, while you're contemplating this, is the effect of a multitude of previous external and internal causes.

Originally posted by You even@ yourself,
your action is influence highly by the surroundings

true... except it's not only "highly" effected.... it's entirely effected. Since everything has a reason, a cause.

How could you say that if you went back in time, and the situation was EXACTLY the same, that you would be able to make a different decision? Sure, perhaps you might have the illusion of having come to that choice on your own, but that's merely because you can be aware of your concious thoughts, there are so many subconcious influences that you aren't even aware of... But that's beside the point anyway. The point is, you will only ever take one path on that tree of yours. If you go back in time, you will only repeat yourself, and end up with the same choice. Sure, if the situation was changed slightly you might come up with a different decision, but that still destroys the idea that it's your own "choice", it's just a new cause (or many, many) which result in the effect of your decision.

Dylan

"Will" is just the high-level representation of what your brain has decided through lower-level means. In a scientific study, when people are asked to tap their finger at a random time, their EEG picked up their intention 3/4 of a second before they actually tapped. To bring personal experience in, I once smoked way too much pot and ended up doing things before I willed them to happen. I touched a doorknob, then i decided to touch the doorknob. It was a bit frightening, seeing as it didn't go away for about 24 hours and I was driving around less than 12 hours later.

That is pretty freaky Simon.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be a thread about free will vs. determinism, but rather, a thread about the will itself, that is, the part of the consciousness that carries out action, thought, etc...

If you're referring to willpower and how much control we really have of our own choices (consciously), then you might find my previous topic interesting: Belief & Willpower
Or perhaps not. Whichever

I started a thread a while ago asking for people's thoughts about the nature of the will itself, not whether it is free or unfree, but how it functions, whether it is a part of yourself or not, and its relation to the outside world. I think I'll bump it.[/b]

BUMP

*edit* oops mistook the topic.

You have to expect that what you just say "Go."

I believe that what we experience as "will of the mind" or our "concious" will (eg: thinking... man I want a glass of milk) is nothing more then nerve impulses in our brain. No will actually exists in the Cartisian sense (eg freewill).

Will is how we precieve our chemically stimulated needs/wants to be.

One question I have is if there is a cartesian will(a will separate from the body), then why does it only affect the actions of the body? If it is truly a separate, spiritual entity, then why is it restricted to the puny human form? Could it be that there is a will like this that is universal, but that we only experience a limited part of it through our human form? Either way the will isn't really our own.

I dont think the will can servive without a body. It needs the brain to make thoughts for it to decide on and decode the physical world. The will to me only has 2 functions decisions and communicating with the brain. sense it does not exist in the phyisical world it must be in contact with something that can interpret this world and a body to explore with.

will is free to do what it likes if it wants to refuse a thought it can and so on, and sense we are our souls I do beleive we are infact quite free

But if you define the self not as a thinking entity, but a percieving entity then isn't the will just another thing that is percieved, or maybe even a part of the mind.

Maybe we should really be asking if the will exists at all.

Is the reason our bodies move any different from the reason anything else moves?

If the answer is yes, then the difference is what the will is, if no, then we may decide that something should be done, and then our body does it automatically.

The will does percieve the brain but it also makes decisions like what to think about all it takes is just a tiny bit of will power to think. also the brain can send info back like feeling smelling seeing. I think that if there is such a connection then shouldent this perciever beable to communicate back. Robots dont have this ability and if everything else is so perfect then why are'nt we. why do we need a perciever anyway so we can just watch are life roll by? and then what if we die what will we do, be forced to perceive more I wouldent see the point without free will.

heheh its like youre all talking about me

I don't know if I can define what "will" is in words or even have the capacity. What is the ultimate motivateing force behined what I do? I think that is a question wrapped in an enigma. I do feel however that we were given free will for a reason. Whithout a free will you really couldn't be an individual, a separate entity. Without a will you wouldn't be able to determine for yourself what you are what you stand for ect. I'm not very religious, but I do believe in a creator and I believe we were created to be companions. I believe we were givin our own will to decide our own path and to become, well "ourselves". If I were God I wouldn't want a bunch of carbon copies of myself running arround. It's like with my own children, I want them to have all the benefits I did as a child, but ultimately to have the freedom of choice to become whatever they want to be. In my limited human capacity I think that might be how our creator sees us. You can tell them and tell them and tell them, but they just won't get it untill they figure it out for themselves. The paradox of free will.

I think the will is another medium of perception related to thought that doesn't correlate to any of the others in a very direct way and so we don't really understand it very well. I don't think it is an expression of our true selves, but an external process.

Ok were talking axioms now, I like this.

However, people do act all the time in ways that appear to be harmful to themselves. How do they calculate benefit from this? Is it possible that the calculation involves not just knowledge of the external or lack of it but knowlege of their own psyche. For instance why do some women constantly make themselves available to any man who gives them a wink? Do all such women count it a benefit to be on their back three times a week with a different man. Many of the women (over 75%) that I know like this have serious problem in their relationship with one or both parents. At the same time that we can be willful, our will can be the slave of overarching realities in society and our own personal life.

I think your axiom is similar to a basic premise of economics. Basically people are rational actors trying to maximimze gain and/or minimize loss. This premise is questioned by the apparent irrationality associated with many financial decisions. For instance I know many women who will spend their last dime on junk food when they are depressed. This is not rational.

Starting with an axiom (an assumption) and then arguing from it is a good place to start. If it does not explain everything then new axioms are added until the theorem is usable.

I started working on a matrix model of human choice once. My first assumption was that in any decision a person makes there are a finite number of important considerations (issues). A rational person can place these considerations in order from the most important to the least. This vector can be used to calculate a probability of action.

As time goes on the events that one experiences and the choices one makes cause the action vectors to change. One obvious question though is are we aware of every impetus for action, or do some lie in deep areas of our mind (soul if you must)? Instinct is a very deep area and I submit that most men play the panting dog for women at an instinctual level. But the deep psychology of a person, like why a person hates clowns or something, it is almost always related to trying to get over events from childhood or other traumas (veterans with PTSD are another example). Some people never come to grips with the issues and therefore never emerge into freewill, but many do and become the kind of people that we know and love, peaceful souls.

If there is a secret to freedom it must be this, a free person respects the freedom of others.

To me having control of the will (applying my will to myself) is very important. Not to stifle desire and creativity but to ensure the use of wisdom. Finding the road of wisdom is the first step of the journey, and some days I think I have barely begun. Some days I wish the journey were already over, and some days that it will last forever.

Regards,

EJ