Thread: reality = perfect balance of order/chaos

How exactly do you measure the amounts of order and chaos?

Yeah that's kind of a tough question.

What is order? What is chaos?
Positivity? , Negativity?

You could probably determine if there is a balance in your life and in the world from your own perspective, but how valid is that, anyway?

People always say there is a balance to life, but it's one of those sayings that while they usually make sense, there is really no way to determine how true it could be. But then if we go deeper and way smaller on the scale, we see that the charge on electrons and protons is triggered by a "balance" of positives and negatives. I know this is pushing it, but hey.. just speculating here.

The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper that is the level of distinction making.

With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about- reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper that is the level of concept.

We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids.

A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The ORDER is in the GRID. That is the Aneristic Principle.

Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the ANERISTIC ILLUSION. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

DISORDER is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.

The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION.

The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

Hail Eris.

Good question.

First, what is order, what is chaos?

Merriam gives a definition:

Chaos:

"2 a: often capitalized : a state of things in which chance is supreme ; especially : the confused unorganized state of primordial matter before the creation of distinct forms — compare cosmos b: the inherent unpredictability in the behavior of a complex natural system (as the atmosphere, boiling water, or the beating heart)

3 a: a state of utter confusion <the blackout caused chaos throughout the city> b: a confused mass or mixture <a chaos of television antennas>"

Order:

": to put in order : arrange

"synonyms order, arrange, marshal, organize, systematize, methodize mean to put persons or things into their proper places in relation to each other. order suggests a straightening out so as to eliminate confusion <ordered her business affairs>. arrange implies a setting in sequence, relationship, or adjustment"

I don't know where 50/50 order/chaos originated from, maybe yin & yang?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(mythology) is pretty consistent with merriams definition. Order is the contrary of Chaos, or in other words order is entropy.

As I see it, if existence include the terms order and chaos we are moving towards order. To lower the enthropy is the purpose.

The evolution of consciousness is to lower its enthropy.

Chaos, like "randomness", is a defect of perception. Perception is limited, and it is not Reality.

It is really impossible for chance to exist otherwise. Like when somebody rolls a die, it is not random, but it appears random. The only way there can be equal chaos and order is through perception, which is dualistic. I can see no other way it can be real apart from being an illusion.

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

all of reality/existence is 50% order and 50% chaos

agree or disagree?

Disagree.

What do you mean by 'order'? If you mean a being or thing or force is ordering reality (as in controlling it, in some way), than reality would logically be 100% ordered, just not all the time - like a messy bedroom.

If, however, there is no large scale Ordering Being, then existence would be 100% chaotic in the long run, despite temporary orderings in small parts of the universe.


Unless I misunderstood the frame of your question.
To me, it is like asking if a farm is 50% abandoned and 50% occupied.

Originally Posted by Denver

To me, it is like asking if a farm is 50% abandoned and 50% occupied.

is it not?

Bullshit: entropy (disorder) increases in a closed system over time. Even if the statement were true, it would quickly cease to be so.

This 50&#37; figure came from no sound basis whatsoever; you're talking nonsense.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Bullshit: entropy (disorder) increases over time in a closed system over time. Even if the statement were true, it would quickly cease to be so.

This 50% figure came from no sound basis whatsoever; you're talking nonsense.

We are not talking entropy in physics, but entropy in consciousness.

"A direct measure of the randomness of a system."

Could be a definition of such.

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

is it not?

Fair enough - let me explain what I mean.

I will define the farm as "abandoned" if there are zero persons living there.
I will define the farm as "occupied" if there is at least one person living there.

Now, once the farm is occupied, when can talk in terms of percentages or degrees. If, for example, there are three rooms in the farm and only one occupant, we could say it is one-third occupied. But that does not mean the other two-thirds are abandoned - they are only unoccupied. We could even say that a ten room house with only one occupant is "poorly occupied", so long as it's clear that poorly occupied simply means "occupied, but not fully occupied, and possibly very far from fully occupied."

--

Similarly, I see existence as either ordered or chaotic, with no middle ground.
If there is an order to the universe, then that makes the whole thing ordered; even if it is poorly ordered.
If there is no order to the universe, then that makes the whole thing chaotic; even if it is poorly chaotic.

Where, "poorly ordered" and "poorly chaotic" have roughly the same definition as "poorly occupied."
Ordered, but not fully ordered, and possibly very far from fully ordered.
Chaotic, but not fully chaotic, and possibly very far from fully chaotic.

but entropy in consciousness.

What?

Originally Posted by Photolysis

What?

Consciousness can be considered as an entropic system.

Consciousness can be considered as an entropic system.

Uh no it can't. The human body is not a closed system and therefore entropy does not increase over time due to the input of energy, and "entrophic" is not even a word. Entropy is a property of a system, not a characteristic.

And this wasn't mentioned at all in the original post regardless.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Uh no it can't. The human body is not a closed system and therefore entropy does not increase over time due to the input of energy, and "entrophic" is not even a word. Entropy is a property of a system, not a characteristic.

And this wasn't mentioned at all in the original post regardless.

en·tro·pic \en-ˈtrōp-ik, -ˈträp-\ adjective

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/entropic

I expected you wouldn't understand.

Consciousness is not a product by the brain, here in lies the problem.

Yes, obviously I was mistaken about the existence of the adjective "entrophic". Your statement is still nonsensical:

Consciousness can be considered a system resulting from entropy

This is false, since the body is a highly ordered system. An increase in entropy would be destructive to the processes of life.

Consciousness is not a product by the brain, here in lies the problem.

Since you provide no reason nor evidence, I will instantly dismiss this as being wrong until you prove otherwise. Not forgetting that A) if it's not a product of the brain, it's not physics, therefore entropy has no meaning, B) then you will be pleased to explain why the destruction of parts of the brain result in the destruction of consciousness, since the brain does not produce it. Interesting.

You're still talking nonsense.

order and chaos are human inventions. Reality is neither orderly nor chaotic.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

order and chaos are human inventions. Reality is neither orderly nor chaotic.

How is this so? Don't you mean: Chaos doesn't exist, therefore order is meaningless?

I think "order," arbitrarily described or not, is inevitable. This is in the way that Reality is perfectly what Reality is. For there to be chaos, a hypothetical and limited position must be projected into the world. But as I said, this would make it illusory.

disagree, reality is our perception of what is the real deal

reality then is 100% random

but what really is occurring is 100% order with chaos as a sub-group of order

So, are we talking about predictable and unpredictable, maybe?

Everything is unpredictable even when we think it is 99.9% predictable, because that final measure of random unpredictablitiness(?) makes reality 100% random.

What 'really' is occurring is 100% predictable, but not by us. Our 'awareness' brought about by dedicated honesty will strike us a path before us that we can walk with increasing confidence. (had to give the banana a go)

Originally Posted by really

How is this so? Don't you mean: Chaos doesn't exist, therefore order is meaningless?

I think "order," arbitrarily described or not, is inevitable. This is in the way that Reality is perfectly what Reality is. For there to be chaos, a hypothetical and limited position must be projected into the world. But as I said, this would make it illusory.

Reality is what it is, there is nothing random or ordered about it. Some may look at reality and see order, and some may see chaos, but neither is an objective truth; they are both subjective opinions.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Reality is what it is, there is nothing random or ordered about it. Some may look at reality and see order, and some may see chaos, but neither is an objective truth; they are both subjective opinions.

Hmm, I see. But it goes just like I said.

I think, with the exception of languaging, we can say that Reality is Perfectly Orderly, the same way a blue sky is a blue sky. Perhaps there is no use making the concept or statement that something is orderly, when it is already, intrinsically, and without a doubt. The concept of blue may be unreal or categorized (etc.) but, in the case of representation, this doesn't mean actual "blue" is not perfectly just that.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Reality is what it is, there is nothing random or ordered about it. Some may look at reality and see order, and some may see chaos, but neither is an objective truth; they are both subjective opinions.

This is exactly how I think about it, I think order and chaos is only an observer phenomenon. Maybe reality is really like order and chaos fused as one, we only separate them in our heads.

Originally Posted by Wayfaerer

This is exactly how I think about it, I think order and chaos is only an observer phenomenon.

Then what is left beyond human perception? Order is perfectly intrinsic to existence. Without order and chaos, there is that which is beyond them, infinite possibility. However we are not talking about infinite possibility, we are talking about what exists and moves now macroscopically, and we know of laws.

Originally Posted by Wayfaerer

Maybe reality is really like order and chaos fused as one, we only separate them in our heads.

When there are no arbitrary parameters or imaginary effects-chains, there is inevitably going to be Order; Cosmological and Divine. How can order and chaos exist together? They cancel, and one of them is left over; chaos cannot exist. It is arguable that the term "order" is meaningless, but that is not the point here.

Originally Posted by really

Hmm, I see. But it goes just like I said.

I think, with the exception of languaging, we can say that Reality is Perfectly Orderly, the same way a blue sky is a blue sky. Perhaps there is no use making the concept or statement that something is orderly, when it is already, intrinsically, and without a doubt. The concept of blue may be unreal or categorized (etc.) but, in the case of representation, this doesn't mean actual "blue" is not perfectly just that.

Blue is also a subjective interpretation. There is no intrinsic blueness without an observer.

Order and Chaos are concepts that did not exist prior to the creation of language, and they do not exist as natural characteristics of the universe or reality.