Originally Posted by Arutad
Hmm that's a provoking thought. I'd say that if components of something change from time to time, it doesn't mean that the whole thing is changing. If you draw a circle you can fill it with the red color, then change your mind and fill it with the white color, and it's still the same circle. And in the case of ourselves not only we fill it with different colors, but we do it in the same ways most of the time, repeatedly. True, values may change, but so many things would remain unchanged that it's like recoloring a single tiny dot inside of the circle.
I don't know about that... I think I know what you mean, but I'm personally wondering about that "whole thing not changing when you change a small part". It makes sense, but isn't that small part a part of the "whole thing" to begin with? Therefore, if you'd change that small part, then the whole thing would change. It's not much, and might not be very significant, but it would change the entire picture.
To phrase it in your own words: if you draw the dot in the circle, your "whole picture" wouldn't be a circle anymore. It'd be a circle with a dot. The change isn't very significant, but the change is there.
And that's what I myself was thinking. What if our brain, our identity, is this "whole thing", a "collection of small parts that may be subject to change". Then, if even the smallest of parts would change, the entire identity would change, if only by just a little bit.
So then the question becomes "are there any fundamental things in our identites that are NOT subject to change?". Is there a never-changing "circle".
And to my current knowledge, all aspects of our identity CAN be subject to change. We can change everything if we'd want. Even our most primal urges: fear, the want for sex, even hunger, we can all "control" these to a degree, we can all change how we handle these things (just think about people who are celibates, or who go on a hunger strike). So apparently, even the most primal, instinctive mechanisms and programs are not fundamental to our "personal identity".
Maybe these urges and tendencies, genetics, etc. are the only things that are truly fundamental to us. But then again: these can change by damage to the brain and psychological conditions, etc. ... So I'm still wondering whether there really is a "circle" in our identity.
I'd love to hear others' views, opinions or insights on this.
If the self is a collection of loads of other things, as you said before (believes, values, and I'd add memories, habitual reactions, skills), then does it mean that there's nothing stable at all? This collection isn't easily changeable, it's almost completely stable.
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean with "stable".
Hm... My identity is not changing, let alone ever-changing
That depends on what we define as "identity", doesn't it?
If we define identity as "a collection of loads of other things, as you said before (believes, values, and I'd add memories, habitual reactions, skills)", then it is constantly changing. Every moment of every day, for one, you are subject to experience. All of these create changes in our moods, and therefore in our behaviors. We may even learn new stuff, or form new opinions. That's a change in "identity", there. Again, it may be very small and not very significant, granted, but as said above, with the circle+dot-example, it is a change from the first form.
Now you mention it, I might've gone a bit too far with that "everchanging" part. Granted, in your sleep you may not change behaviors or opinions, etc., so you're not changing constantly, but in (most) daily interactions, maybe from encounters at work, or when watching the television, or maybe even when discussing on internet forums, you will most likely learn new things, form new opinions, etc. etc., which does equate to change.
So it just boils down to the question of "what do you consider identity". You can only say that your identity isn't changing when you clearly define what you think is identity.
So just out of curiosity: what is your viewpoint on this? What do you think that identity is?
Funny enough in the same book I quoted this topic was raised, and the author discussed a defensive mechanism that we use to deny our behavior when it goes outside of what we consider ours. That must mean that there is something that we do consider ours! So despite of your example, it seems that it's only easy to incorporate alien behavior if it doesn't stray too far from the habitual one. If it strays too far, it can be as much as mind-damaging.
Exactly... What I was trying to tell there is that the thing is that most of us consider "normal behavior" as "ours" or our entire "identity". Radical behavior and "dark side"-behavior, even if they are part of our identity, aren't "accepted" or sometimes aren't even faced by us. And that's understandable. Who would actually like to identify themselves with their angry-part or their irritated-part? Nobody, of course not! And that's healthy, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a part of identity.
I wonder if that's true that when we're alone we lose "social identity". It doesn't seem true to me. I don't pick my nose when I'm alone because I think it's ugly, but in my childhood I couldn't understand why my mother hated that.
Yeah... That'd be pretty weird . But I didn't actually mean it like that. I didn't try to convey that message, so I'll try again.
It's not like your superego goes out of the window when you are alone. It's just that when you're alone, you behave differently than when you're with other people. And you even behave differently between groups of people. You don't talk to your boss like you'd talk to your mother. You don't talk to the queen like you'd talk to your little baby brother. Different social situations have different social behaviors. And that's what I meant with that. Those are the "social behaviors".
And yes, of course you don't "lose" them. That was the entire point I was trying to make: both social behavior as well as "alone-behavior" are a part of your identity. The only thing that happens when you get into a social situation or an "alone-situation", is that you just change your behavior. Not your identity.
Anywhoooo, have a great day! ^^
-CD
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