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    Thread: Utopia

    1. #1
      Xei
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      Utopia



      I always enjoy imagining and discussing utopian concepts, even if they are out of human reach.

      I made this thread so that we can discuss some ideas about utopia. I have two foci in mind:

      Firstly, I am interested in the more practical details such as how such a state would arise, and how exactly it would function; the precise socio-economic structure and scientific details (food and energy production, scientific research...).

      Would there be religion? Would there be class distinctions?

      Secondly, as I've alluded to in my Hypocrisy thread, I'd like to discuss the legal system. I propose that instead of an ad-hoc system which can often lead to contradiction and hence inadequacy, we introduce a system based on a pure philosophical or moral basis and then work upwards in a consistent fashion. I suggest the following axiom as the basis of my system:

      The individual has total freedom over themselves and only themselves.

      The individual therefore may not affect another in a manner that contradicts that person's will.

      Some implications of this system (to provoke thought) include the freedom to take any drug one chooses, the freedom to believe in a religion but not to act on that religion if it demands that others be harmed, and the freedom to commit suicide.

      I'd appreciate it if you could add to this idea or perhaps suggest some cases where it might not work.

    2. #2
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Brilliant thread! I love this stuff. I like your axiom. I'll try to tear some holes in it but am unable to at the moment. My thinking is similar pertaining to an axiomatic system of law. I really don't know why we don't have one already.

      Here's some thoughts that I have about how to organize axioms and any fundamental laws that can be derived from them. In the US, we have the bill of rights. It grants rights to the people. We then procede to allow corporations the same rights as people. I think that this is wrong.

      We have "no idea" where people came from or what rights were intended for us. Your axiom is great in that it respects that. So people shouldn't get a bill of rights from the government as it's in no position to grant them. On the other hand, we know precisely who makes corporations. (corporations = government, corporations as we would recognize them today, non-profits, essentially, any organized group of people)

      We do. So corporations get a bill of rights. We get to decide what rights they have because we create them. I guess we would have to specifically acknowledge that we are denying people the right to create corporations that have rights other than those granted in their bill of rights.

      This post is long enough. There will be more later, I'm sure.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    3. #3
      This is my title. Licity's Avatar
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      What kind of punishments would you use for those that break the law? Obviously, any kind of imprisonment would violate your individual's rights axiom. You also would not be able to run a draft system if the utopian society should come to conflict with another power, and be unable to tax residents should the economic system of choice be capitalistic. Unless the central government has the power to violate the axiom for purposes of keeping itself running, and keeping criminals punished, the only solution I can see is to use a socialistic society, modeled after the Marxist ideal of no big government.
      198.726% of people will not realize that this percentage is impossible given what we are measuring. If you enjoy eating Monterey Jack cheese, put this in your sig and add 3^4i to the percentage listed.

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      Member Specialis Sapientia's Avatar
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      Good thread

      Laws imply the use for them, thus a perfect society should have no requirement of laws.

      An utopia, in my mind, would have to be non-institutionalized.

      The foundation of an utopia is of course the citizens, the citizens would need to have the the axiom you wrote, very close to the heart, so close that no law would be needed.

      Right at the being level, is where the emnation of these utopian concepts should come from, an external legal/governmental framework would just not cut it, it should come from within.

      A bit like Prot's society on K-PAX if I remembers correctly. (The films name is K-PAX)
      The wise ones fashioned speech with their thought, sifting it as grain is sifted through a sieve. ~ Buddha

    5. #5
      Antagonist Invader's Avatar
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      How would your axiom apply to children? Is there an age of legally recognized "adulthood"?

      One of my biggest concerns with the concept of a utopian society comes with the distribution of wealth. Money, or selfish individuals with money, rather, can be the cause of a great many problems. Those problems can arise in relationships, on the social scene, can manifest in the form of class distinction, or as political corruption. Would machines be harvesting our crops and doing all of the heavy labour that would otherwise be leaving the poorly paid worker unhappy and unsatisfied? I think the first step to creating a utopia, besides making appropriate laws, is to "fix" how labour and income are managed by the society. Machines and advanced computers that run the lower tiers of work would be a start. I'm very against the "Brave New World" concept of utopia. All should have equal access to material (and non material) resources.

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      A place with economic needs and a legal system is not a Utopia. A perfect place would have no need for work and strife, just happiness. I don't understand how we are suppose to discuss a place that is literally impossible with the human condition. It's no different then talking about "heaven" so to speak. Socialism...Communism....Democracy, whatever political system it may be, is all a effort at perfect order with respect to the individual.

      Rather than talking about a inconceivable place, you could discuss concept political systems, or in your opinion, which political systems ones are the "best". This thread feels more like let's start talking about how cool a heaven would be, if there was one,.... essentially what a "perfect", ideal situation would be. Ideal defined as an "ultimate standard of perfection".

      So why is this in the philosophy section. If it is inconceivable to the human condition, it is thereby only attainable through a altered state of being, i.e.. the "soul", or a different evolution of being entirely.

      *slides thread into dreaded religious forum*

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post

      the freedom to believe in a religion but not to act on that religion if it demands that others be harmed
      Going the extra mile to criticize Muslims in a perfect world, + respect.

    8. #8
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      I cannot think of perfect world where laws and religion do exist.

      But of course, as Xei said, this is all theoretical and will never happen with mankind
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    9. #9
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      utopia in my opinion

      1. does not have to be 'perfect'
      2. but is a perfect place to express yourself as an individual
      3. would be a place that centers around the human being, and the needs of the human being.

      that may seem obvious, but its not

      human beings have a need to rest. our modern life ruins our natural biorhythms.

      human beings have a need to eat healthy food. all food should be organic. there is no reason why we should have to read the label. all food should be healthy. does this mean getting rid of a good deal of sugary foods? coming from a sugar addict, yes. our over induced sugary sweets are now directly linked to the mental development of children (idiocracy anyone?)

      in utopia need comes before want

      our needs aren't just limited to sleeping and eating. we have a real need for our minds to be stimulated. humans don't like boring. the sad truth is many video games are more stimulating than many boring and meaningless jobs out there.

      so in utopia, no job would be meaningless or boring. this would mean that the artisan can once again have a place in society. artisans who create useful things for us, and they enjoy doing so.

      humans have a need to live in balanced with nature


      humans have a need to be social. we are a society. therefore, society must be looked after. we can't turn our eyes on those who are suffering. which is the purpose of being a society, to look after one another in our times of need. no one who is ill would be turned away. no one would be homeless, no one would be starving.

      the need for society to take care of itself is like the need to talk. it should be learned from an early age. that caring for other humans is something all humans need to do. that this is what is expected of you as a human being. society depends on humans extending their hands to others.

      we will never do away with our society problems if we expect money - or taxes to magically fix them. the inability do away with poverty stems from our denial that we are a people. Instead we have believed that we are individuals who have no responsibility to other people. Which then translates, by way of job owners, that our jobs can pay us less than we deserve. Because we have just told those job owners that they have no responsibility to the quality of our lives.

      call it socialism and grind your teeth

      but society will never evolve from this point on if it denies that we need to change our self image from an individual.......... to an individual a part of a whole.

      we also have a need to be individuals. because we are individuals as much as we are a society. society is composed of individuals, so individuality can not be trampled over.

      this is the problem that people have with utopia, they can't imagine a place where no one is starving, where no one is harmless without individual liberty being trampled over

      the solution is to stop assuming that there is a magical system of government that will magically create utopia. there is no magical government that creates utopia.

      utopia is utopia because of individuals

      individuals who aren't afraid to be themselves, and who know at the core of their being their responsibility to the rest of the world. which is why utopia is a society, not a government or nation.

    10. #10
      This is my title. Licity's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      utopia in my opinion

      1. does not have to be 'perfect'
      2. but is a perfect place to express yourself as an individual
      3. would be a place that centers around the human being, and the needs of the human being.

      that may seem obvious, but its not

      human beings have a need to rest. our modern life ruins our natural biorhythms.

      human beings have a need to eat healthy food. all food should be organic. there is no reason why we should have to read the label. all food should be healthy. does this mean getting rid of a good deal of sugary foods? coming from a sugar addict, yes. our over induced sugary sweets are now directly linked to the mental development of children (idiocracy anyone?)

      in utopia need comes before want

      our needs aren't just limited to sleeping and eating. we have a real need for our minds to be stimulated. humans don't like boring. the sad truth is many video games are more stimulating than many boring and meaningless jobs out there.

      so in utopia, no job would be meaningless or boring. this would mean that the artisan can once again have a place in society. artisans who create useful things for us, and they enjoy doing so.

      humans have a need to live in balanced with nature


      humans have a need to be social. we are a society. therefore, society must be looked after. we can't turn our eyes on those who are suffering. which is the purpose of being a society, to look after one another in our times of need. no one who is ill would be turned away. no one would be homeless, no one would be starving.

      the need for society to take care of itself is like the need to talk. it should be learned from an early age. that caring for other humans is something all humans need to do. that this is what is expected of you as a human being. society depends on humans extending their hands to others.

      we will never do away with our society problems if we expect money - or taxes to magically fix them. the inability do away with poverty stems from our denial that we are a people. Instead we have believed that we are individuals who have no responsibility to other people. Which then translates, by way of job owners, that our jobs can pay us less than we deserve. Because we have just told those job owners that they have no responsibility to the quality of our lives.

      call it socialism and grind your teeth

      but society will never evolve from this point on if it denies that we need to change our self image from an individual.......... to an individual a part of a whole.

      we also have a need to be individuals. because we are individuals as much as we are a society. society is composed of individuals, so individuality can not be trampled over.

      this is the problem that people have with utopia, they can't imagine a place where no one is starving, where no one is harmless without individual liberty being trampled over

      the solution is to stop assuming that there is a magical system of government that will magically create utopia. there is no magical government that creates utopia.

      utopia is utopia because of individuals

      individuals who aren't afraid to be themselves, and who know at the core of their being their responsibility to the rest of the world. which is why utopia is a society, not a government or nation.
      I think that moving towards "individual as part of a whole" is exactly the wrong direction to move in. I think we need to focus more on motivating the individual, and emphasizing individual rights. If every person takes care of themselves, no dependency on one another is necessary, and interactions don't need to be any more complex than purely social.

      Jobs don't have to pay us less than we deserve, we just need more union organization. If the workers aren't being paid enough, then the workers being too submissive. Turn-of-the-century USA had that problem, but it seems to be at least a little better now.
      198.726% of people will not realize that this percentage is impossible given what we are measuring. If you enjoy eating Monterey Jack cheese, put this in your sig and add 3^4i to the percentage listed.

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      so in utopia, no job would be meaningless or boring. this would mean that the artisan can once again have a place in society. there is no magical government that creates utopia.
      Your magical government that you feel is adequate to be practiced in a Utopian world is socialism. You go on to describe your unique policy from the subjective "I believe" rationale, and there you have it, your policy = utopia.

      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      utopia is utopia because of individuals
      We all act as individuals, many however, do not feel the need to fully express themselves as one; perhaps not to feel inadequate or to different. So we let all individuals express themselves fully, but how are
      we going to make everyone accept who they are without being involved?
      Hate crimes and other such may evolve out of total expression, we have that freedom already, and I believe that we do fully express ourselves to people that are willing not to judge, rather accept and enjoy being around, namely our close friends and sometimes, but not always, our family.

      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post
      individuals who aren't afraid to be themselves, and who know at the core of their being their responsibility to the rest of the world. which is why utopia is a society, not a government or nation.
      Criminal Billy Bob will not be afraid to expose his knife upon the innocent walking among the streets at night. So.... innocent death, I would hope, does not exist in a perfect world. Not to sound to manic and cynical there, just the hypothetical scenario of a criminal. How would you handle criminals in a socialist government so to speak, drug them? Take them out behind the scenes and blame on a medical related death like heart attack? Just wondering.

    12. #12
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Humans will have Utopia about like lions will decide to stop attacking gazelles. I still like the idea.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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