Originally posted by Belisarius
All occam's razor does is suggest the most reasonable, but it has nothing to say of it's possibility(which was what I was trying to proove anyway).
If you read my post, you'll see that I said that. Nothing can prove or disprove that “hypothesis”. That’s what makes it worthless. It is untestable and has absolutely no affect on perceived reality. That’s like saying, “There’s a giant invisible, incorporeal dragon in my closet.” You can’t test for it and it affects absolutely nothing except your own misguided imagination, so what difference does it make?
I agree that it is beyond ridiculous to believe such a thing, as in order to believe that you would have to make unstubstantiated conclusions based on nothing.
Of course how is that any different from science where you make conclusions based on your perceptions and you trust their accuracy for no reason?[/b]
No reason? Dude, they're consistent . If to all of our senses and all of our instrumentation, to the limits of our technology and beyond to the limits of any conceivable future technology, all collected data indicate that the universe is 13 -14 billion years old, that's what it is. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, has the DNA of a duck, and autopsies like a duck, you might as well accept that to the limits of our perception (which are all that matter for the sake of any sort of discussion or contemplation), it’s not a grand illusion or a projection from some sort of Star Trek holodeck, but just a freakin' duck.
I'm not talking about anything \"outside of the universe\". If you want to think of this whole thing as an elaborate illusion, fine. But if we exist inside the illusion and the illusion is all we can know, there is no point in talking about perfect hoaxes. You can't know. I can't know. Nobody can know if it's perfect and no evidence is left of anything being amiss. According to our best observations of the \"illusion,\" it is 13 - 14 billion years old. Fact. Don't dispute it, because you can't. As I've said before, science deals only with what is observable and measurable. According to scientific observation, the universe has existed for many billions of years before the arrival of the human species. If you want to speculate about something \"outside the universe\" for which no evidence exists, and think that \"well, no evidence indicates that it doesn't exist either!\" is a strong and valid argument, you have... problems.
I understand that this position makes it impossible for me to be justified in believing anything about the outside world, but it is the only one that I can find a way to justify. The question I really want answered is how one goes about justifing belief in the accuracy of one's senses. So far the only answers I have gotten to that question have been something along the lines of: \"I want to believe they are accurate because I feel that that belief is so valuable that it doesn't need to be justified.\"[/b]
The justification? The justification is that our senses, or rather our technology and instrumentation, are all that we have. If you don’t trust that, you trust nothing. You are left adrift in a sea of constant doubt. Call it a “provisional belief,” but it’s still all you’ve got. Even religion can be argued on the basis of sensory perceptions. People can claim miracles, that some aspect of the universe could not exist without the intervention of as supreme being or force, even that they have feelings of oneness, of connection to God, etc. Psychic phenomena can be argued in much the same way. There are measurable effects to the functioning of these phenomena (anomalous acquisition and transfer of data between two people, movement of an object in accordance with the human will that occurs through no known physical forces, etc.). One can test whether or not they exist. It hasn't been done yet, but the point is that it can be done. Even if modern science does not have an explanation of a phenomena, that phenomena can be argued and debated so long as some evidence of it exists. No evidence exists for “the universe is an elaborate hoax, fraudulently made to look old and sold to a gullible humanity much as a modern painting is sold to an ignorant mark as a priceless piece of antiquity at an underground auction\". There is no point in talking about such things because nothing productive can be known and therefore nothing productive or meaningful can be said. What is the point? It’s like that child claiming that an invisible, incorporeal dragon lives inside her closet, but no one, not even she, can see it, smell it, hear it, feel it, taste it, or in any other way sense it. It’s just there.
This “no universe before humanity” belief is just about as worthy of contemplation as a child’s imaginary dragon.
I know this philisophical position isn't really desirable, but then again neither is the position of an atheist.[/b]
Man, believing scientific evidence does not mean that one believes in nothing else. There are many religious scientists in the world-- they’re just usually not as pathetically gullible and eager to swallow without chewing or digesting whatever gets spewed from the pulpit. Does that make them less religious? Less spiritual? One’s faith is confirmed and strengthened when it withstands the test of scrutiny. If disregarding all evidence that contradicts one’s beliefs is the only way those beliefs can be sustained, they are not worthy of one’s attention, mental or emotional energy. They are simply a comfort blanket that you pull over your head when the disembodied sights and sounds of the night start to press in, a flimsy shield against a world you believe will disappear if only you don’t look at it, if you stick your head in the sand, cry out for confirmation and receive back only the echoes of the impersonal, apathetic cadence of a world that has better things to do than make you feel important.
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