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    1. #26
      Member SpecialInterests's Avatar
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      Ok. I fail to see why it would be random if the deflection was caused by a known source though. Am I missing something?

    2. #27
      Eat,Sleep,Breathe MUSIC
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      In other words, what Xei refuses to admit because of it's implications, is that consciousness affects the matter. The observer. Because consciousness is an electromagnetic force

      It's not random, and it doesn't bump off the lip of the slit. The electron goes to whichever spot on the target "the observer" expects/intends for it to go through either consciously or subconsciously. When there is "not" an observer, it goes to all of the possible spots on the target at the same time. Nothing is random or chaotic and is intended/expected on some level.

      Look up electromagnetic theories of consciousness.

      http://www.unisci.com/stories/20022/0516026.htm
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro..._consciousness
      Last edited by Majestic; 09-29-2009 at 04:21 AM.
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      “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - Albert Einstein

    3. #28
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      Haha, you've almost turned into a parody of yourself now... trust me; you're completely wrong.

      - What are the implications and why wouldn't I want to admit them?
      - Consciousness is not an 'electromagnetic force' because the presence of consciousness does not cause electromagnetic effects (the electromagnetic force is a single thing btw, saying 'an' electromagnetic force shows that you are clueless as usual). Please explain to me exactly what the electromagnetic force is and what it affects because I have a suspicion that you are just using the word because you heard it somewhere from some nutjob and it sounds cool. We can assume that consciousness is the result of brain activity, which is the result of neuron activity, which is the result to a large extent of the movement of ions, but such fields are extremely localised (otherwise the brain wouldn't work).
      - It's impossible for it not to bump off the lid of the slit. The electromagnetic force has infinite range. Completely and utterly incorrect.
      - Please give an experiment which has shown that intention affects quantum mechanics. Note that your claim that subconscious intentions have an effect is demonstratably bullshit because it is completely impossible to test. Seriously, how can you possibly detect a subconscious intention when by definition you aren't conscious of it? And how then can you perform an experiment and reach a conclusion? Patently bollocks.

      SpecialInterests; look up electron clouds. They're a good example of a quantum phenomenon. Basically the electron whizzes around extremely quickly so you never know quite where it's going to be at any one moment; so fast that it forms a kind of cloud of probabilities around the nucleus.

    4. #29
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      Of course it's impossible to test, that's why it they can't figure it out. Oh, but let me guess, the great Xei has figured out the most confusing things in quantum mechanics while no one else can, you don't even know how out-of-whack your ego is do you.

      The point is that electrons behave as particles when they are observed/measured, and a wave when they are not being observed/measured. That's the bottom line of it, that's as simple as it gets and scientists do not know why this happens. Most scientists are afraid to even talk about this because what it could imply. What more advanced civilizations than us knew thousands of years ago is just coming to light today. All we can do is speculate why this happens, so stop pretending that you know why it happens, because your just speculating yourself, as well as I. Get over it. It can't be proved, because it's subjective, IMHO.
      Last edited by Majestic; 09-29-2009 at 05:25 AM.
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      “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - Albert Einstein

    5. #30
      The Supreme Echelon Absolute's Avatar
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      Let's be civil, my friends. It's just a topic for discussion. =)
      -Absolute Wisdom

      "Life is much like a barren road. You can choose to leave it and end up in a deserted wasteland, or you can follow the road to see what is beyond the horizon."

    6. #31
      Member Specialis Sapientia's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Matter interacts via the electromagnetic force. The electron, if it is an electron, will be repelled by the negatively charged electrons which surround the atoms which constitute the material which surrounds the gap.

      For this to work the wavelength of the particle has to be the same order of magnitude as the size of the gap.
      What concept/idea/experiment are you referring to?
      The wise ones fashioned speech with their thought, sifting it as grain is sifted through a sieve. ~ Buddha

    7. #32
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      SS; that's just diffraction.
      Quote Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD View Post
      Of course it's impossible to test, that's why it they can't figure it out. Oh, but let me guess, the great Xei has figured out the most confusing things in quantum mechanics while no one else can, you don't even know how out-of-whack your ego is do you.

      The point is that electrons behave as particles when they are observed/measured, and a wave when they are not being observed/measured. That's the bottom line of it, that's as simple as it gets and scientists do not know why this happens. Most scientists are afraid to even talk about this because what it could imply. What more advanced civilizations than us knew thousands of years ago is just coming to light today. All we can do is speculate why this happens, so stop pretending that you know why it happens, because your just speculating yourself, as well as I. Get over it. It can't be proved, because it's subjective, IMHO.
      Congratulations on not answering any of my questions...

      If it's impossible to test, then why do you believe in it? If there's no empirical evidence then the only reason in believing in something is bias, which is what you possess a huge amount of. You still don't understand this basic concept of science, do you? Science isn't about oppression of freethought, it's the exact opposite; you belive something because of evidence, and that's the only reason; not because somebody else says so, or because you want to. As far as I'm concerned anybody who is anti-science such as yourself belongs in the dark ages. How can you possibly oppose it?

      Please stop with your strawman ad hominems, I know very little about QM actually, but I at least know enough to know that you're wrong.

      Scientists aren't afraid to talk about issues which they themselves discovered (how stupid...). They even have a name for the problem you're talking about; it's called the 'measurement problem'. I ask you again; what are the implications you keep alluding to but failing to explain, and why wouldn't scientists like them? And where have I claimed to know the answer to the measurement problem? Looks like you've confused it with totally different areas of QM yet again. Have you learnt everything from conspiratory youtube videos or something?

      And we are the first civilisation to discover quantum mechanics. Indeed we are the first civilisastion to properly discover classical mechanics. Unless you provide me with evidence to the contrary, your above claim was a lie.

    8. #33
      Member SpecialInterests's Avatar
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      Ah yes its becoming more clear now. I suppose considering the we can only predict the position of the electron by probability, there is no telling the forces magnitude and direction exerted on it... until we detect where it went. But if we detect where it went we changed the experiment.

      Am I getting warmer?

    9. #34
      Member Specialis Sapientia's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      SS; that's just diffraction.
      Ah fine, I thought it might had been the double slit experiment, where electromagnetic disturbance is not a valid "explain away"
      The wise ones fashioned speech with their thought, sifting it as grain is sifted through a sieve. ~ Buddha

    10. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by SpecialInterests View Post
      Ah yes its becoming more clear now. I suppose considering the we can only predict the position of the electron by probability, there is no telling the forces magnitude and direction exerted on it... until we detect where it went. But if we detect where it went we changed the experiment.

      Am I getting warmer?
      yea, observation has an effect on electrons. When an electron is not observed, it behaves like a wave. A wave is a disturbance in some type of substance - i.e. water, air. Only when observed will a particle snap into a definite position. Just as relativity forced people to change their views of time and distance, quantum physics is forcing people to come to grips with a new concept of space, that on small scales is very different than what we intuitively grasp from our experiences.

      In the experiment, when the display screen is off (i.e. the thing that the observers look at) but the detectors are still in place and everything else is the same, the interference pattern remains. When they turn the screen on again (and change nothing else), it collapses. See this guy's lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OWQildwjKQ


      Consciousness is the cause of why this happens. Ancient civilizations like the Mayans knew about consciousness thousands of years ago. They actually mapped the evolution of consciousness and have been correct for thousands of years even to this very day.

      Consciousness cannot be proved, or tested or any of that, because it is subjective(mind). Anyone who considers the issue philosophically at all will have to admit this fact: there is no such thing as one of a pair of opposites without the other of the pair. So there is no such thing as objectivity without subjectivity that is equally real and irreducible. And scientists want to reduce the entire universe to objective matter or processes; through its history science has assumed that subjectivity is not real. Just considering it in this very simple light we can see that cannot possibly be true.

      The Western world is stuck in this perspective, that the mind isn't really real. And that is because the Western mind has become split in two--the left-brain, objective, rational, logical side, and the right-brain, subjective, feeling, intuitive side. And we are stuck in the left-brain side, so we can only really experience the objective aspect of ourselves and the world. And thus scientists, who are for the most part even more left-brained then the average person, start with the assumption that the mind, the subjective aspect of life, is not real. And it IS an assumption--even though science is supposed to be assumptionless.
      Last edited by Majestic; 09-30-2009 at 06:19 AM.
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      “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - Albert Einstein

    11. #36
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      Congratulations yet again on making no attempt to answer my questions. Doupleplusgood doublethink.

      Any conscious being can easily confirm their own consciousness; cogito ergo sum?

      It remains to be seen if consciousness can be scientifically tested for (i.e. the 'neural correlates of consciousness found). Currently almost nothing about the fundamental workings of the brain is known. It is an open issue; it is not the case at all that scientists 'answer' the problem by denying the existence of consciousness. That would be idiotic, as I said above, the existence of consciousness is patently obvious. Studying consciousness scientifically is actually becoming quite fashionable at the moment.

    12. #37
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD View Post
      yea, observation has an effect on electrons. When an electron is not observed, it behaves like a wave.
      When an electron is not being observed, the probability amplitudes behave like a wave. We're not observing the electrons so we have know idea what's going on. There are a lot of interpretations.

      Quote Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD View Post
      Just as relativity forced people to change their views of time and distance, quantum physics is forcing people to come to grips with a new concept of space, that on small scales is very different than what we intuitively grasp from our experiences.

      In the experiment, when the display screen is off (i.e. the thing that the observers look at) but the detectors are still in place and everything else is the same, the interference pattern remains. When they turn the screen on again (and change nothing else), it collapses. See this guy's lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OWQildwjKQ
      What display screens? There were no display screens when the double slit experiment was first done. Detecting which slit the photon goes through changes the behavior of the photon. The reason is clear. There is no 'neutral' measurement in QM. Performing any measurement changes it. When you interact with a particle, you change it's position and velocity. This is because the only way to measure the photon is to bounce something off of it (or vice versa) and this changes it's momentum.

      It's like trying to use sonar to measure something so small that the sound waves move it. Does that make sense? Consciousness is not necessary at all for this to occur.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

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