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    View Poll Results: Which is the most functional economic structure?

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    • Free Market

      13 30.95%
    • Mixed Economy

      20 47.62%
    • Socialism

      9 21.43%
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    1. #1
      The Supreme Echelon Absolute's Avatar
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      Question Capitalism, Mixed Economy, or Socialism?

      Which of the three do you think is the best form of an economic structure for global trade and why? As an economist, I'd like to hear the thoughts on this, especially with the recent fluctuation with the world markets. Have some of your opinions changed with recent events or do you still stand on a particular system?
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    2. #2
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      I chose mixed economy. I think that the basic needs of people need to be taken care of to the extent that they can get food and health care. Homelessness doesn't even bother me that bad if somebody doesn't want to work, but if they do work, we need to increase the minimum wage to what it was in 1970 and keep it that way.

      One person working should be able to support a spouse and two kids.

      After that, capitalism is great but it needs to run in what a computer programmer would call a "sand box". It can't fuck with the important stuff that I outlined above. That should be socialist.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    3. #3
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      I believe in an automaton state, where all the goods and means of production and maintenance, etc. Is all taken care of by automatons or robots of some sort, which would allow an Anarchist-Communist state to survive, as there is always enough for everyone, there is no such thing as money or trade, and people are essentially allowed to do as they please as all of their basic needs and everything else will be met for them.

      Of course, none of that probably makes sense if you read it right now, but I am writing a nice long paper on the idea that I'll post up later today if I finish.

      But right now I am for a mixed economy, as humans are dastardly and greedy when put in stressful positions and positions of power.

    4. #4
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      It has to be mixed. Pure Capitalism was Bush's and Reagan's system, which failed miserably and the super-powerful companies start buying congress seats and run the country. Pure socialism was the USSR, which also failed miserably. The strongest economies are those who are capitalized, but controlled, so about 80/20. If Reaganomics had continued there would be an IBM logo on the flag right now.

    5. #5
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      I believe in an automaton state, where all the goods and means of production and maintenance, etc. Is all taken care of by automatons or robots of some sort, which would allow an Anarchist-Communist state to survive, as there is always enough for everyone, there is no such thing as money or trade, and people are essentially allowed to do as they please as all of their basic needs and everything else will be met for them.

      Of course, none of that probably makes sense if you read it right now, but I am writing a nice long paper on the idea that I'll post up later today if I finish.

      But right now I am for a mixed economy, as humans are dastardly and greedy when put in stressful positions and positions of power.
      I've had the same kinds of ideas actually, partly seeded by the endless hours I've spent washing up at the pub for money. Any automaton which can do basic tasks (basic vision, conceptualisation of 3D space, follow instructions...) would make me redundant for a fraction of the cost so capitalism itself would be enough to cause the initial restructuring of the economy... the vast majority of the population would then be free from work. All paper pushers, hairdressers, all of this menial rubbish, many labourers... all that would remain is highly specialised and trained personnel; thinkers. Vast economic upheaval would then be required to care for the unemployed masses; almost approaching a communist utopia, really.

      The problem as I see it is what would become of the displaced population... I'm a dreamer of course so I idealise a state in which all human beings cooperate together in advancing the vanguards of human knowledge, and in creating art and discussing philosophy... but largely based on the society that surrounds me, I fear what would really happen is they would have no idea what to do with their total freedom and would simply not understand the concept of choosing to work, leading to a huge spread of lethargy creating a proletariat which just sits and eats and watches TV; a downward rather than upward spiral of human progression.

      Regarding our current economic model, it has to be mixed economy. The rich are all selfish, stupid people and the poor need a source of income. You can overshoot it though; the British government has done this. Instead of supporting the unemployed, the amounts of money given to these people is so huge now that it's actually a self-propagating process, causing new unemployment and maintaining the unemployment that already exists (as PS warned about), and has created a whole new class of idiotic, pointless people to whom I alluded above.

    6. #6
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      I think free markets are the best, as long as they are actually free. None of this bullshit, its free but the government gives out money and favors to some companies. Its not free if the government is interfering with everything. The only thing the government should be doing is stopping illegal and harmful stuff.

      Though more importantly I think the size of government has to be way smaller. Everyone would be far richer if the government wasn't siphoning off massive amount of money through taxes and inflation. Just image how much you could do if you didn't pay income tax. Ron Paul had a great plan for it.

      Lets see we can have the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, or everyone in the US could have a 35-50% pay increase by removing income tax. Hmm such a hard choice, a pointless war, or 50% increase in my pay. Why the heck are people picking war! That would end the economic problems we are having right there, it would be a huge boost to the economy. The best part is everyone is getting money but there is no inflation, because its money that was already there.

    7. #7
      BICYCLE RIGHTS Catbus's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      Though more importantly I think the size of government has to be way smaller. Everyone would be far richer if the government wasn't siphoning off massive amount of money through taxes and inflation. Just image how much you could do if you didn't pay income tax. Ron Paul had a great plan for it.
      So what's your view on the privatization of social services with a smaller government, like say the road system or fire fighting?


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    8. #8
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      If they could do a better job for cheaper then I am all for it. Though things like firefighting and building roads, I don't really have a problem with. There is a long list of things we waste money on, before we get down that far. All the foreign aid and stuff for example. That is money that Americans never see, cutting off wasteful foreign aid money and money spent on keeping troops over seas and stuff, would save us an insane amount of money and no person living in the US would be effected.

    9. #9
      peaceful warrior tkdyo's Avatar
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      I agree with the other mixers here. basic needs definitely should be taken care of, and after that, yeah let competition do its thing and advance our technology, which can in turn improve the systems in place for providing needs. and the circle can go on
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    10. #10
      This is my title. Licity's Avatar
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      Competition is totally vital to any advancement. In my opinion, socialize police, fire departments, and other emergency services (not healthcare), but leave everything else free market.
      198.726% of people will not realize that this percentage is impossible given what we are measuring. If you enjoy eating Monterey Jack cheese, put this in your sig and add 3^4i to the percentage listed.

    11. #11
      Xei
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      In my opinion basic healthcare and education for everybody regardless of financial status is just an obvious necessity.

    12. #12
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      In my opinion basic healthcare and education for everybody regardless of financial status is just an obvious necessity.
      That's what I get for posting when sleep deprived. I forgot education.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by tkdyo View Post
      I agree with the other mixers here. basic needs definitely should be taken care of, and after that, yeah let competition do its thing and advance our technology, which can in turn improve the systems in place for providing needs. and the circle can go on
      The problem is that competition disappears in pure capitalism, big companies get rid of their competitors and create monopolies. Once they have a monopoly, they cut back on quality. This is the Microsoft business model, and it works, but reduces quality and eliminates choice. The current state of Microsoft is the fault of 8 years of unrestrained capitalism.

      The more powerful a company gets, the more it influences politics, essentially buying the country. You know who the most powerful man in Florida is right now? It's not a politician, it's Robert Iger. Capitalism would only work if politicians weren't corruptible, but that's not that case.
      Last edited by ninja9578; 09-26-2009 at 02:25 AM.

    14. #14
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      Well you see where government ran education got this country. It sucks horribly. It seems almost odd when people say we can't have private education and the government needs to do it. When almost universally private education is far superior than public education in this country, and everyone knows it.

      As for monopolies, they are really not a problem long term in a free market. In a pure capitalist system, a large company can not get rid of all competition, it is simply impossible. They might be able to in the short term but, they can never in the long term.

    15. #15
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Compare our education to the education system of all sorts of other developed countries. They are way better.

      Do you think that maybe the problem is that we just have a corrupt ass goverment that spends too much money training and financing latin american death squads to protect corrupt banana companies from "evil socialists" that don't think that a foreign company should own the bulk of the arable land and that companies shouldn't underpay people to apply fungicides that they know to be toxic?
      Last edited by PhilosopherStoned; 09-26-2009 at 03:08 AM.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    16. #16
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      Well you see where government ran education got this country. It sucks horribly. It seems almost odd when people say we can't have private education and the government needs to do it. When almost universally private education is far superior than public education in this country, and everyone knows it.
      Whoever said we can't have private education?

    17. #17
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      Of course we have a corrupt and horrible government that wastes money. Which is exactly why anything that removes government from the system and replaces it with free market alternatives is a good thing.

      The reason socialism always fails so horribly is because it fundamentally needs a strong government, which easily becomes corrupted and then proceeds to screw everyone over.

      I would be all for voluntarily socialism without government being involved at all, however that is never going to happen so I am capitalist all the way.

    18. #18
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Why is it that the European governments are able to provide good healthcare and good education though? Do you think that we should look at them and figure out what the difference is?
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      Well you see where government ran education got this country. It sucks horribly. It seems almost odd when people say we can't have private education and the government needs to do it. When almost universally private education is far superior than public education in this country, and everyone knows it.

      As for monopolies, they are really not a problem long term in a free market. In a pure capitalist system, a large company can not get rid of all competition, it is simply impossible. They might be able to in the short term but, they can never in the long term.
      It is possible for high tech companies. Things like high technology requires millions of dollars worth of QA just to get off the ground, and bank will not make that kind of loan.

      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      Why is it that the European governments are able to provide good healthcare and good education though? Do you think that we should look at them and figure out what the difference is?
      We have a problem with conservatives in this country, that's less the case in the European countries.

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Whoever said we can't have private education?
      Exactly, mixed is the best. With no public alternative there would be more uneducated people because they're poor, and prices would skyrocket like the current cost problem with health care. But all public wouldn't be good either as without competition with private schools, quality would suffer (moreso than currently.)

    21. #21
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      It doesn't matter if the bank will loan you the money or not, even though they probably would. You just have people invest in the company. If there is a need for it, people will invest, they will make money and their will be competition. Something being expensive isn't a limitation to the free market. Also if it is at all possible, people will find a way to lower the cost as well.

    22. #22
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      People won't invest without a product. It takes 50 million to launch a technology company, minimum. That's hard to come by with just an idea. Software is different, a kid in a garage can cripple a software giant, hardware is different.

    23. #23
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      I'll also point out the the recent aids vaccine was made by the us army because companies didn't want to do it. Apparently, they can make more money with treatments and poor people in africa and south east asia can't afford their medicine anyway.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    24. #24
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      People invest all the time without a product. If you do the math and you figure out you can supply parts cheaper than the giant company and you line up buyers for your parts, people will easily invest in that, and there is a good chance you will make money.

      Plus companies that are already manufacturing things, can switch products or add new hardware products and their cost will be significantly less.

    25. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      People invest all the time without a product. If you do the math and you figure out you can supply parts cheaper than the giant company and you line up buyers for your parts, people will easily invest in that, and there is a good chance you will make money.

      Plus companies that are already manufacturing things, can switch products or add new hardware products and their cost will be significantly less.
      Not true when a lot of the companies make the parts themselves, eliminating the middle man. Doen't happen as much in the PC market, but it does in every other silicon market.

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