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    1. #26
      This is my title. Licity's Avatar
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      I admit, I was playing devil's advocate above...

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      We would need an economy based on value, not profit. Google the venus project. We would definately need a global consciousness which is on the way with borders breaking down and people linking on the internet and globalization and a global economy already a reality. All these things as they exist, except the internet, are not so positive right now, but that will change. We need to think of us as us, not us and them. We cannot be a planet of separate peoples fighting over resources and letting the greedy people rule over us and use us like the machines do in the matrix movie.
      Why must we move away from a money-based economy? The only reason money is inefficient as a system currently is the laws restricting trade. A completely free global market with a global currency doesn't have to bother with tariffs, country restrictions, and other stuff in place just to protect companies within a country.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      We need a democratic anarchy of small self sufficient city state communes that all agree on common freedom. We need to stop breeding out of control. we need to legalize all victimless crimes. Let the machines do the work while we focus on living, loving, making music and art and experimenting. We need to support the scientists so that they don't have to get grants from the government and military so they can invent things that are actually helpful for all life rather than weapons and surveillance technology.
      It would be better to just have one small global government, less chance of war. The scientists wouldn't have need to invent weaponry and surveillance past what's necessary for police forces and the like, so the only way for them to survive would be making money off of other inventions and advancements.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      we need solar, wind and wave energy. We need earth houses that are round or hexagonal. City states should be built hexagonal because that is the shape that allows the easiest transportation from one point to the other in the city and least competition of businesses and easiest and most efficient patrolling of borders, not that we will need to patrol our borders because there will be no illegal aliens.
      Unfortunately, landmasses are not hexagonal, so if you have separated city-states some of them would not get a full hexagon of area. Why round and hexagonal houses? For a rectangular plot of land, squares and rectangles are the most space-efficient.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      I read somewhere that there is a tribe of people in Africa where if someone does something bad or harmful they take him to the center of the village and everyone takes a turn coming up to him and telling him how much they love him and all the cool things he has done in the past and all the cool times they spent together. This goes on for days and is quite emotional. At the end they all have a big party. We won't have prisons becasue there will be no crime. I went to Tokyo last spring and I was surprised that it is a huge f*&cking city but there is virtually no crime. You could walk down any street at any time of day or night all alone if you are a man or a woman and be totally safe. And there is no litter there either. And I only saw one homeless person.
      Yeah, Tokyo is amazing, isn't it?

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Everyone would have a nice place to live and nobody would be hungry because the economy would not be based on profit but on value. Like now if there is a surplus of corn the government dumps thousands of tons of corn into the ocean on order to keep prices up. That would not happen in a Utopia.
      Since when does the government do that?

      In the total free market I described above, companies would just have to find something else to do with the corn.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Also the root problems of our world is that there are too many f^%cking people! People need to control their desire to have kids. People need to do this voluntarily or else. Even if every woman only had one kid that would help.

      Once the population is balanced people need to voluntarily regulate their breeding so that the population stays in balnce.
      Eh. Panic about overpopulation seems a little unbased, considering that the overpopulated areas of the world have limited access to the technology in the more balanced places. The population has stabilized in industrialized countries like the US and Britain, and is actually falling in some places. Just like with animal populations, a human population waves above and below the carrying capacity before it stabilizes.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Also, we need to stop being so racist and sexist and bigoted against gays, lesbians and anyone who is different. People are people, for crying out loud. If it helps, everyone should marry someone from a different race so we can get over this bigotry.
      Agreed, except the marriage thing. Marriage is for love, not for solving racism.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Also, and this is a taboo subject, but people got to free themselves from organized religion and have a natural, non-dogmatic spirituality be supported as an alternative that is totally relevant to reality and science. Also science needs to recognize the inner worlds of experience so we can rediscover energy medicine, lucid dreaming. People should definately be free to be atheist too of course. Its all about freedom and responsibility.
      I personally feel that science is fine as it is, but I agree that people should be free for whatever as long as their religion does not teach doing harm to anyone else for any reason.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      I think that society is so not perfect right now. In fact it isn't even sustainable. That is the problem! It cannot keep going like this. It is impossible. Maybe in New Zealand, except for the whole no ozone layer thing going on there.

      Anyway, I think about this al the time and I could go on and talk your ears off forever but I think I'll give it a rest and go to bed.
      Whether or not it's sustainable, we shall see...
      198.726% of people will not realize that this percentage is impossible given what we are measuring. If you enjoy eating Monterey Jack cheese, put this in your sig and add 3^4i to the percentage listed.

    2. #27
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Licity View Post

      Why must we move away from a money-based economy?
      Oh, we could still use money as a convenient form of trade for goods and services. Just not the fictional currency backed by debt that we now have.

      As far as the geomteric shapes of the land: in reality I have never seen a rectangular piece of land. All land that I have seen is irregularly shaped. I am talking about nobody owning land so there would be no land for sale that is rectangular shaped. If you find a piece of land that is livable and is not in someone's watershed or in a field of crops then you could build a house. this is the way it has been done for eons before the god-appointed kings decided to claim ownership of the land. You know, this land is your land, this land is my land.

    3. #28
      This is my title. Licity's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Oh, we could still use money as a convenient form of trade for goods and services. Just not the fictional currency backed by debt that we now have.
      Just switch back to a gold standard or whatever other standard seems appropriate at the time.
      198.726% of people will not realize that this percentage is impossible given what we are measuring. If you enjoy eating Monterey Jack cheese, put this in your sig and add 3^4i to the percentage listed.

    4. #29
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      Why should there be money at all? Did anybody read my idea? I'm talkin' about robots doing all the hard work while humans pursue intellectual interests, etc. If anyone could get whatever they wanted (within reason, and could, provided the population was small enough), money would become obsolete.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Likewise, technology will never free us from suffering, no matter how much leisure it affords us and how many ways to fill it, or how many irritants and ailments it strikes down one-by-one.
      I beg to differ. Technology will eventually free us from our mortality. Eventually, nobody will ever die.

      The real problem lies in the incorrect use of technology. A prerequisite to an ideal techno-utopia is that the evils of the world are eliminated to begin with. Start with greed and go from there.

    6. #31
      widdershins modality Taosaur's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mini0991 View Post
      I beg to differ. Technology will eventually free us from our mortality. Eventually, nobody will ever die.

      The real problem lies in the incorrect use of technology. A prerequisite to an ideal techno-utopia is that the evils of the world are eliminated to begin with. Start with greed and go from there.
      Exactly: a technotopia can exist, just not in the real world. Hence fiction.

      If technology ever frees anyone from mortality, it will not be everyone, because not everyone can stand to live forever (I would argue no one, but many people could stand to live much closer to 'forever' than is possible now, whereas others can't make it to thirty). Most likely such technology would be handed down primarily on the basis of socioeconomic class, as is the case with current medical technology. If technology did free most of us from death, it would also have to free us from birth. A world without death is a world without children. It's hard for young adults to understand how bleak a world that would be.

      Immortality would not be freedom from suffering, but the final institution of hell on earth.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    7. #32
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      Let me hit you with this : What makes a perfect society is a matter of personal opinion. Therefore, there can be no perfect society due to the conflicting interests of the people.
      Last edited by CRAZY BONE; 10-16-2009 at 05:29 AM.

    8. #33
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
      Let me hit you with this : What makes a perfect society is a matter of personal opinion. Therefore, there can be no perfect society due to the conflicting interests of the people.

      But I think that there are common threads we can all agree on. And we can tolerate differences as long as nobody's freewill is violated. For example, if you are a free loving hippie and like to smoke lots of pot and play drums around a campfire and be in orgies, you can go live or visit a city-state where those kinds of people do that. However if you want to work hard every day and unwind at the honkey tonk listening to country music on the jukebox you can do that also. I mean, you're right, our idea of a perfect society would not be the same as for, say, Dick Cheney's. That is when there are problems, when someone wants to take away freedoms, oppress people, or exploit people, or convert people.

      Maybe it is just me, but I think MY utopia is a better Utopia than Dick Cheney's. So we will have to reconcile this somehow. The only problem with different ideas of Utopia would be if greed came into the picture, or dogma. Then we would have the right to correct the situation. Which we could do peacefully.


      Quote Originally Posted by mini0991 View Post
      A prerequisite to an ideal techno-utopia is that the evils of the world are eliminated to begin with. Start with greed and go from there.
      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Most likely such technology would be handed down primarily on the basis of socioeconomic class, as is the case with current medical technology.
      The way to minimize greed is to have no classes. Or just one class.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mario92 View Post
      Why should there be money at all? Did anybody read my idea? I'm talkin' about robots doing all the hard work while humans pursue intellectual interests, etc. If anyone could get whatever they wanted (within reason, and could, provided the population was small enough), money would become obsolete.
      You folks going on talking about medical technology making us live forever! Come on! Is that your idea of Utopia? Don't you think it would be better if we were educated about Death and taught lucid dreaming since we were children so we could prepare for the return to dreaming.

      It's like saying we can have medical technology keep us awake forever so we never have to sleep! Death is half, Life is half. Waking is half, sleeping is half. You can't have a mountain without a valley. We wouldn't be alive, we would be UNDEAD. Creepy! I mean Michael Jackson wanted to live forever and stay young forever. That is not healthy, poor guy.

      I'd rather that Kundalini Yoga and Taoist energy cultivation techniques and right exercise and right diet and nutrition and meditation and lucid dreaming would be taught to keep us healthy and happy until it is time for us to go peacefully.


      John Lennon's Imagine:

      Imagine there's no heaven
      It's easy if you try
      No hell below us
      Above us only sky
      Imagine all the people
      Living for today...

      Imagine there's no countries
      It isn't hard to do
      Nothing to kill or die for
      And no religion too
      Imagine all the people
      Living life in peace...

      You may say I'm a dreamer
      But I'm not the only one
      I hope someday you'll join us
      And the world will be as one

      Imagine no possessions
      I wonder if you can
      No need for greed or hunger
      A brotherhood of man
      Imagine all the people
      Sharing all the world...

      You may say I'm a dreamer
      But I'm not the only one
      I hope someday you'll join us
      And the world will live as one
      Last edited by Dannon Oneironaut; 10-16-2009 at 08:29 AM.

    9. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mario92 View Post
      Why should there be money at all? Did anybody read my idea? I'm talkin' about robots doing all the hard work while humans pursue intellectual interests, etc. If anyone could get whatever they wanted (within reason, and could, provided the population was small enough), money would become obsolete.
      Because without money there wouldn't be trade, exchange or prices...basic economics.
      'What is war?...In a short sentence it may be summed up to be the combination and concentration of all the horrors, atrocities, crimes, and sufferings of which human nature on this globe is capable' - John Bright

    10. #35
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      It would be better to just have one small global government, less chance of war. The scientists wouldn't have need to invent weaponry and surveillance past what's necessary for police forces and the like, so the only way for them to survive would be making money off of other inventions and advancements.
      So you think that everybody loves the idea that there should be a legal law enforcement like police? They only had weapons and could surveillance everything? The big brother is ever-vigilant.

      The way to minimize greed is to have no classes. Or just one class.
      Why must we move away from a money-based economy? The only reason money is inefficient as a system currently is the laws restricting trade. A completely free global market with a global currency doesn't have to bother with tariffs, country restrictions, and other stuff in place just to protect companies within a country.
      The existence of money based economy nullifies the one class idea. What profit is there to have one social class if there is still money that separates people into different classes?

      Agreed, except the marriage thing. Marriage is for love, not for solving racism.
      Marriage has been a tool for ages to tie different social classes to each other, to manipulate, to play social games, to solve financial problems etc. It has nothing to do with love. I find it interesting that I know many people who wonder why people who have had a relationship for 5+ years aren't even engaged yet. Why should they ever be? It is merely an trivial tradition, which has become too much of fuss. In addition, in some cultures getting a divorce is hard. Why should two people be together if they don't like it anymore? Just because it is an tradition through religion and law.

      I propose building an army of robots to do all of the mundane chores while simultaneously reducing population and advancing medical and technological sciences. Eventually, disease and social unrest, even death could be cured. Through eugenics, everyone would truly be equal. With robots doing the work and everyone living in luxury, the economy would cease to be relevant, and the nations would merge into one. Designer drugs would become popular, and humans would be able to devote their lives to bettering themselves, the desire induced either through genetics or hypnopaedic suggestion. People would be given the personality traits of Einstein and Jesus, and instead of growing more shallow and bored, would instead grow deeper and more intrigued with life. Certain precautions would be taken to ensure that people don't ultimately begin to look alike, and would retain their individuality.
      I detest this idea. I would be glad to be an exile from a society like that. On the top of that, death cannot be cured, since it isn't a disease. It is a natural part of life.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    11. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      [B]

      You folks going on talking about medical technology making us live forever! Come on! Is that your idea of Utopia? Don't you think it would be better if we were educated about Death and taught lucid dreaming since we were children so we could prepare for the return to dreaming.

      It's like saying we can have medical technology keep us awake forever so we never have to sleep! Death is half, Life is half. Waking is half, sleeping is half. You can't have a mountain without a valley. We wouldn't be alive, we would be UNDEAD. Creepy! I mean Michael Jackson wanted to live forever and stay young forever. That is not healthy, poor guy.
      We're not saying that people would be completely incapable of dying, we're just saying that we could turn off aging and natural diseases, so that people could waltz right out of life whenever they pleased. I highly doubt anyone would want to live forever, so there would still be death. It would still be a part of us (and we could all get hit by a bus tomorrow; that hasn't changed), it's just a part we now have much more control over.

      Quote Originally Posted by Laughing Man View Post
      Because without money there wouldn't be trade, exchange or prices...basic economics.
      Well, duh! That's the point! Why should there be economics at all? Why do there even have to be separate nations? Why can't the world just become one big, happy family? Money is the root of all evil, so...eliminate the root, and you kill evil.

      Thoreau said it best: "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." Many evils in the world today are not independent, but are rather symptoms of deeper, more inherent evils. Money is one of these evils.

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    12. #37
      Consciousness in the Void Universal Mind's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Mario92 View Post
      Why can't the world just become one big, happy family?
      Why can't lions just stop attacking gazelles? No matter how much we talk about it, peace is not part of the general nature of lions.

      Without financial rewards, few people would work. We would be third world.

      Money is not the root of all evil. People were evil long before there was money. Power, food, territory, sexual mates, etc. are roots of evil. Also, jealousy is the root of about as much evil as greed is.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


    13. #38
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      Ah, but humans are beings that can think, feel, and make decisions. It is instinct for the lion to kill, but humans have a choice in the matter.

      There would not need to be work (see robot idea). People can also be conditioned into pursuing intellectual and philosophical goals, etc. so that all of humanity does not become a giant vegetable.

      I'm not saying money is the root of all evil, but rather that it is a root of evil. If you kill it, you progress.

      Besides, this is all just what an ideal society would look like. Not saying that it's gonna happen, or that it could, for that matter.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      Why can't lions just stop attacking gazelles? .
      Yes, but we are humans. We don't need to attack other humans. We have been taught and conditioned that humans are violent by nature. But we are not. Conflicts happen because of greed or need. We have the resources and know how to eliminate need. And we would just need to teach people and condition people that we are inherently friendly and loving. With all needs satisfied people just need to be educated.

      Crime happens because of poverty or greed. But basically humans are peaceful and loving if they are not suppressed, manipulated, and conditioned otherwise. Maybe young college jock guys or young rednecks who are insecure in their masculinity or their sexuality feel the need to go out to the bar, get drunk and prove themselves. But they are basically acting like animals. But have you ever seen someone high on pot get in a fight?

      The choices we make on how to educate our children start with the choices we believe. If we believe that humans basically don't want to hurt others or get hurt themselves, then we can start moving towards this Utopia.

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      Singularitarianism sounds like a very bad idea.

    16. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Yes, but we are humans. We don't need to attack other humans. We have been taught and conditioned that humans are violent by nature. But we are not. Conflicts happen because of greed or need. We have the resources and know how to eliminate need. And we would just need to teach people and condition people that we are inherently friendly and loving. With all needs satisfied people just need to be educated.
      I beg to disagree. We are humans. That is the core reason why there will always be people who disagree with rest of the society. Animals very rarely do, because they trust their survival instinct, as being member of the pack. The difference is that we can think a lot better, we have more capability of evaluating situations and that means we can understand that for our race, living in a pack isn't necessary. This leads us to conclusion that we don't have to be caring or loving, since they exist only to strenghten the bonds within the social group i.e pack.

      Conflicts happen because of greed or need. We have the resources and know how to eliminate need.
      Need or greed? Why does a lion kill a gazelle? For need. Need is the thing that loosens your precious morals. That as one is a proof that humans aren't caring and loving in the deep bottom. We have great amount of it, since we are social animals, but it isn't necessary. Stealing and robbing is part of our social know how. The guy next door has means of survival, I don't. I need food, thus I steal from him. Problem solved. Greed, however, is something that animals generally do not share with us. Greed is something that comes from our psychological frame, flows from our ego. It is an inherent part of us.


      Crime happens because of poverty or greed. But basically humans are peaceful and loving if they are not suppressed, manipulated, and conditioned otherwise. Maybe young college jock guys or young rednecks who are insecure in their masculinity or their sexuality feel the need to go out to the bar, get drunk and prove themselves. But they are basically acting like animals. But have you ever seen someone high on pot get in a fight?

      Again, I disagree. Poverty and greed are very strong factor, I agree on that. But there are others too. Some people just don't have a concrete reason to steal, for example. Why do rich people steal mundane things from store? Kleptomania, for example. The reason lies in our psyche, in the vaults of our mind and ego. This is what makes us humans. Some people just do things to the kicks on it. I count myself on that category too.

      EDIT : Yes, I have seen a pot fellow getting in a fight, asking for a fight, interrupting a fight. That counts for many other drugs too.

      The choices we make on how to educate our children start with the choices we believe. If we believe that humans basically don't want to hurt others or get hurt themselves, then we can start moving towards this Utopia.

      Yes, this might help, but you cannot abolish it alltogether. There will always be those who don't agree with the rest of the society. It is all tied to morals really. Society makes rules and laws, expecting people to follow it, because for some trivial reason they think it would be right. Now, there are people who disagree, of course. Those people are generally burned on a bonfire, stoned to death, thrown in jail, exiled in the desert, silenced by an assassin, put grounded for a lifetime, censored etc.

      It has nothing to do with morals. It is just because those who are on the top of the society think they can make rules, which would have a greater moral justification.

      My morning thoughts.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      A lion killing a gazelle is different than a human killing a human.
      The reason people disagree with society is because they feel alienated.
      I have traveled a lot and spent time with a few indiginous cultures in Central and South America and in South East Asia as well as the South Pacific islands.
      The whole village would make major decisions together. Everyone worked together and played together. They had family and friends in nearby villages. Everyone for the most part got a long smoothly. Occasionally someone would have a disagreement, they might even fight. But then they would feel bad about it and they would work it out and discuss it. They would ask advice from their elders. Children of all ages would play outside and go wherever they wanted at all hours of the day or night.

      There were some hermit types who lived outside the village and kept to themselves. But there were no problems.

      On the other hand, I was in Tokyo, and it is a huge city. And there is no crime there. Everyone was happy, everyone was nice, everyone wanted to be nice. The punk rockers and the business men and the old ladies and every single person was super nice to each other and to me. But then you go to New York city and the way they say "Hi, nice to see you, how are you?" is instead they say "Hey, Fuck you!" and you say "Fuck you too!"

      Well, we can agree to disagree, but I think it is cultural and it is learned.
      But, I agree that we will never reach perfection and there will never be any conflict at all.

    18. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      A lion killing a gazelle is different than a human killing a human.
      Not for me. Killing is killing, taking life of someone else. Ending their existence. Humans are not exception.

      The reason people disagree with society is because they feel alienated.
      Yes, because they see no reason for the system. I disagree with the society, because there is no logical reason why a goverment or a state would have right to tell people what to do. It is a mockery against human freedom.

      I have traveled a lot and spent time with a few indiginous cultures in Central and South America and in South East Asia as well as the South Pacific islands.
      The whole village would make major decisions together. Everyone worked together and played together. They had family and friends in nearby villages. Everyone for the most part got a long smoothly. Occasionally someone would have a disagreement, they might even fight. But then they would feel bad about it and they would work it out and discuss it. They would ask advice from their elders. Children of all ages would play outside and go wherever they wanted at all hours of the day or night.
      While I don't doubt your travels and I have travelled quite a bit myself, I think you haven't been there so long you can say they have absolutely no social problems. However, there is a huge difference between small villages and big countries. In small communies it is easier to keep people on the leash, since the peer and social pressure is way greater than in a big communities. In a small village in the middle of the jungle you need others to survive a lot more than in our modern society. Hunting in a group feels a lot safier than alone.

      There were some hermit types who lived outside the village and kept to themselves. But there were no problems.
      "Problems" don't necessarily have to exist. There is still always a reason why they are hermits, be it spiritual, religious, practical or otherwise. The point is that they have chose to live outside the community because the village and it's social frame clearly restricts their own personal freedom to do what they want.

      On the other hand, I was in Tokyo, and it is a huge city. And there is no crime there. Everyone was happy, everyone was nice, everyone wanted to be nice. The punk rockers and the business men and the old ladies and every single person was super nice to each other and to me. But then you go to New York city and the way they say "Hi, nice to see you, how are you?" is instead they say "Hey, Fuck you!" and you say "Fuck you too!"
      I see, that is why there is a death penalty there. Did you know that as far as it comes to the Asian culture, it is common to hide your true feelings behind smile? I have many asian friends and I have learned it from them. Just because the outside looks fancy it doesn't mean that in the inside everything is fine. Strangely enough, the greatest organized mafia can be found in Japan. So I would say it is bluntly ignorant to say there is "no crime there".


      Well, we can agree to disagree, but I think it is cultural and it is learned.
      But, I agree that we will never reach perfection and there will never be any conflict at all.
      This is the core point. It is cultural and it is learned. People can learn not to be loving or caring. It is not inherent, there are no deep-written morals, which cannot be bypassed. People are afraid of doing things on their own. They know they want, but the social pressure puts too much fear on their hearts.


      It is easy to be of the same mind, it is easy to be mindless. More you'll find when you cut off the road and take a shortcut through the woods.
      How do you think unless you think dissidently. Are you actually thinking at all?
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    19. #44
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Unelias View Post
      However, there is a huge difference between small villages and big countries. In small communies it is easier to keep people on the leash, since the peer and social pressure is way greater than in a big communities. In a small village in the middle of the jungle you need others to survive a lot more than in our modern society.


      Did you know that as far as it comes to the Asian culture, it is common to hide your true feelings behind smile? I have many asian friends and I have learned it from them. Just because the outside looks fancy it doesn't mean that in the inside everything is fine. Strangely enough, the greatest organized mafia can be found in Japan. So I would say it is bluntly ignorant to say there is "no crime there".
      That is why I think in an Utopia we should have small sustainable, self sufficient city-states.

      Yes, you are right about asians hiding their true feelings behind a smile. When I say that there is no crime there, I misspoke. I meant it is safe there any time of day or night in anywhere if you are alone and even if you are a woman. Nobody will rip you off, nobody will rob you, nobody will fight you or shoot you or stab you. Nobody will give you the incorrect change even if you are blind.

      The Mafia there basically operates with big corporations and government to embezzle money and launder money. Yes, that is crime, but that is not what they meant.

    20. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Licity View Post
      I admit, I was playing devil's advocate above...

      Why must we move away from a money-based economy? The only reason money is inefficient as a system currently is the laws restricting trade. A completely free global market with a global currency doesn't have to bother with tariffs, country restrictions, and other stuff in place just to protect companies within a country....
      It is not so much that we need to move away from a money-based economy as that we need to move away from a system that requires money. This is a system based on sectional or class ownership of the productive resources of society by a tiny minority forcing the majority into a life of wage slavery

      The money based economy is a hugely inefficient arrangement for meeting human needs and becoming ever more so. Think of all the occupations that are tied up in one way or another with keeping the money system ticking up yet do not in themselves contribute in any meaningful sense to satisfying human needs or enhancing human welfare- from banks to pay departments, to tax inspectors and actuaries

      You can grasp the enormity of the extent opf this structural waste only by understanding the nature of the alternative to capitalism - genuine communism . Not the pseudo communism of the state capitalist dictatorships of the Soviet Union , China et al.

      Genuine communism would be a society without money , wages or buying and selling. It would be a stateless commonwealth in which we would all have free access to the things we need and voluntarily contribute our labour. In such a society most of the jobs we do today which contribute nothing to our wellbeing would instantly disappear making available a huge increase in manpower and resoruces for socially useful production

      Ken Smith's seminal work on the subject Free is Cheaper (John Ball Press 1987) goes into this in some detail

    21. #46
      Member Laughing Man's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by robbo203 View Post
      It is not so much that we need to move away from a money-based economy as that we need to move away from a system that requires money. This is a system based on sectional or class ownership of the productive resources of society by a tiny minority forcing the majority into a life of wage slavery

      The money based economy is a hugely inefficient arrangement for meeting human needs and becoming ever more so. Think of all the occupations that are tied up in one way or another with keeping the money system ticking up yet do not in themselves contribute in any meaningful sense to satisfying human needs or enhancing human welfare- from banks to pay departments, to tax inspectors and actuaries

      You can grasp the enormity of the extent opf this structural waste only by understanding the nature of the alternative to capitalism - genuine communism . Not the pseudo communism of the state capitalist dictatorships of the Soviet Union , China et al.

      Genuine communism would be a society without money , wages or buying and selling. It would be a stateless commonwealth in which we would all have free access to the things we need and voluntarily contribute our labour. In such a society most of the jobs we do today which contribute nothing to our wellbeing would instantly disappear making available a huge increase in manpower and resoruces for socially useful production

      Ken Smith's seminal work on the subject Free is Cheaper (John Ball Press 1987) goes into this in some detail
      Please, answer the following questions:

      1. How can you economically calculate without prices?
      2. Do you realize that money is a result from the inefficiency of the barter system and that money is merely a medium of exchange?
      'What is war?...In a short sentence it may be summed up to be the combination and concentration of all the horrors, atrocities, crimes, and sufferings of which human nature on this globe is capable' - John Bright

    22. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      That is why I think in an Utopia we should have small sustainable, self sufficient city-states.
      Which is,however, impossible , since great amount of little communities will eventually fall to fight with each other.

      Yes, you are right about asians hiding their true feelings behind a smile. When I say that there is no crime there, I misspoke. I meant it is safe there any time of day or night in anywhere if you are alone and even if you are a woman. Nobody will rip you off, nobody will rob you, nobody will fight you or shoot you or stab you. Nobody will give you the incorrect change even if you are blind.
      I would call this highly naive. That is one hell of a big city and one hell of a big land. There is no guarantee you are safe there. For what I have heard, rapes and muggings are quite normal.
      The Mafia there basically operates with big corporations and government to embezzle money and launder money. Yes, that is crime, but that is not what they meant.
      Or contributes to society with random violence. I wouldn't call Japan crime free just because there wouldn't be any "street crimes". There are though.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    23. #48
      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Unelias View Post

      I would call this highly naive. That is one hell of a big city and one hell of a big land. There is no guarantee you are safe there. For what I have heard, rapes and muggings are quite normal.
      But if you were there you would be safe. I mean it. It is safe. Even in the small town I live in now I have to avoid certain neighborhoods, I have to watch my back at night, and if I was a woman I would not go home alone. But for Tokyo, which is huge, none of that applies. Call me naive, but I was there. I didn't understand the whole money exchange thing and how much a yen was worth etc., but I never even had to worry or even count the change I was given.

      But anyway, lets not debate this, lets instead think about how to build a Utopia. If you don't want a Utopia then... why not? If you don't have ideas...

      But it is good to hear your feedback because it is these details we will have to figure out. Like in the USA our founding forefathers were thinking along these same lines. Too bad that it didn't work out. Let us learn, lets not give up and say "it'll never work. Why try? Lets just live in a horrible system that doesn't work". let's find out why it doesn't work and fix it. Let's not debate about why there will always be wars and crime and violence. This is not the point. Let us put our heads together and figure out some solutions.

    24. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Laughing Man View Post
      Please, answer the following questions:

      1. How can you economically calculate without prices?
      2. Do you realize that money is a result from the inefficiency of the barter system and that money is merely a medium of exchange?
      Hi

      Regarding your first point you might like to check out this which answers the point about economic calculation in the absence of monetary prices -http://www.cvoice.org/cv3cox.htm. Basicallly, what you have instead is "calculation in kind" supplemented by a self regulating system of stock control. Allocation of resources is guided by the "law of minimum" - you economise most on those factors that are scarcest (as revealed by the process of stock control) - and in the light of socially determined production priorities. Money is thus rendered completely superfluous from the point of view of ecnopmic calculation and, as I have indicated before, the money-based economy is hugely inefficient from the standpoint of directly meeting human needs. Anyone who doubts that should ask themselves in what way do job such as banking and insurance - vital though they may be to the money system - actually contribute to the satsfaction of human needs.

      Your second point reveals a basic misunderstanding. The proposal is not to replace money with barter as an alternative form of exchange but rather to get rid of a system of economic exchange itself which is predicated upon sectional or class ownership of the productive resources. What is being proposed , in other words, is a alternative kind of society in which individuals freely take according to their self determined needs and voluntarily contribute their labour. This is a genuine communist society not the brutal state capitalist dictatorships of the Soviet Union et al which were a complete travesty of communism

    25. #50
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      What we must be careful of is seeking to build a utopia, only to build a dystopia. See Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley.

      http://www.huxley.net/

      I like the bit about Jesus-Einstein humans.

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