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      Question The Perfect Society

      After dabbling into the field of economics on this philosophy forum, I wanted to push further into a more critical state in thinking. Some people say a perfect society can not exist. Some say we need to change our economic structure entirely and push away from a currency based economy. Others say the bureaucratic structure of sovereign nations is, in itself, illegitimate to operate the world. What is your opinion on this? What, in your personal views, would be considered a society fully functional where everyone is provided what they need, hunger and homelessness is gone, and sovereign nations are dissolved?
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      A techno-utopia is definitely the ideal society.

      Quoted from Wikipedia:

      A techno-utopia in is a hypothetical ideal society, in which laws, government, and social conditions are solely operating for the benefit and well-being of all its citizens, set in the near- or far-future, when advanced science and technology will allow these ideal living standards to exist; for example, post scarcity, changes in human nature and the human condition, the abolition of suffering and even the end of death. Several 20th and 21st century ideologies and movements, such as transhumanism and singularitarianism, have emerged promoting a form of techno-utopia as a reachable goal.
      And I agree with that, we'd finally be so scietifically and technologically advanced, we'd have to means to stop all disease, poverty, suffering, etc. Truly a heaven on earth.

      EXCEPT transhumanism, I do not agree with that. Transhumanism has bad idea written all over it.

      I do believe we'll be in a better world in 2012. Maybe even beyond science and technology. A much better society and the end of suffering. I see Singularitarianism as a possibility ( Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland ).


      Last edited by Majestic; 10-05-2009 at 05:03 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
      Some people say a perfect society can not exist.
      Without brainwashing people, it cannot. Even then, I would hardly call it perfect since individual freedom ceases to exist.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Unelias View Post
      Without brainwashing people, it cannot. Even then, I would hardly call it perfect since individual freedom ceases to exist.
      Aren't we brainwashed right now? Aren't we giving up individual freedom in some way to be a part of the society? There is no reason that I see, that we couldn't change it in a way presented by Hard-wired for example. All I'm trying to say that the thing you call individual freedom is so relative that it's irrelevant if a mindset for a perfect utopia was established. If a person praises the current system because he feels that he owns a house or car etc. would that mean that some other "utopian person" would be less free if he didn't feel the need to own the way we do now?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      Aren't we brainwashed right now? Aren't we giving up individual freedom in some way to be a part of the society? There is no reason that I see, that we couldn't change it in a way presented by Hard-wired for example. All I'm trying to say that the thing you call individual freedom is so relative that it's irrelevant if a mindset for a perfect utopia was established. If a person praises the current system because he feels that he owns a house or car etc. would that mean that some other "utopian person" would be less free if he didn't feel the need to own the way we do now?
      Some are. I consider myself more crushed under society, which I detest. There will never be a society, which will be appreciated and accepted by every human, unless people are forcefully planted with same beliefs and ideas. I can say that in my life time there won't be such society, which I would enjoy. Actually, I don't think that even with all the technology, there won't be one for me.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      There can be no perfect society. Some societies are better than others for more of the members, and utopia can be useful as a rhetorical device to consider positive reforms, but every real system requires constant adjustment and eventually needs replaced. Even if some perfect Plan could be devised, allowing for every contingency and accommodating every quirk of human will and desire, where are the perfect people to enact it without error?

      Likewise, technology will never free us from suffering, no matter how much leisure it affords us and how many ways to fill it, or how many irritants and ailments it strikes down one-by-one. What would the techno-utopia look like? See Idiocracy.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      What would the techno-utopia look like? See Idiocracy.
      Idiocracy? That's a bit of a miss in my opinion, why idiocracy? I'd say the borg, if anything...
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      It's possible, but it's not going to happen for a long, long time, if ever. It is, however, possible.

      I propose building an army of robots to do all of the mundane chores while simultaneously reducing population and advancing medical and technological sciences. Eventually, disease and social unrest, even death could be cured. Through eugenics, everyone would truly be equal. With robots doing the work and everyone living in luxury, the economy would cease to be relevant, and the nations would merge into one. Designer drugs would become popular, and humans would be able to devote their lives to bettering themselves, the desire induced either through genetics or hypnopaedic suggestion.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Likewise, technology will never free us from suffering
      Precisely. We use technology just as much to cause suffering in the name of whatever cause one wishes to fight for.

      As far as having basic needs met for every individual, it's certainly achievable. A truly balanced justice system would be nice. Let's remove a bank's ability to trick people out of the ownership of
      their homes while we're at it, too. Intolerance based on meaningless differences can go too. That starts with a good education system and responsible parenting.
      Last edited by Invader; 10-09-2009 at 07:56 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
      As far as having basic needs met for every individual, it's certainly achievable.
      I hardly call a society perfect if it only fulfills peoples basic needs even if basic needs are fulfilled, there will be more advanced needs, which the society will most likely prevent from fulfilling. At least in case of some needs.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      Idiocracy? That's a bit of a miss in my opinion, why idiocracy? I'd say the borg, if anything...
      How does an idiocracy emerge if not through reliance on technology and an excess of leisure? If there is anything approaching a perfect society on earth, it's probably the Amish. I love me some gadgets, but I totally respect their decision to steer clear of labor-saving devices in order to keep people connected through communal work. Granted they'd have a much lower standard of living if they couldn't sell jam and cabinets to us 'English.'

      Ultimately, though, there's no 'right way' to do civilization. It will always have a strong element of chaos and improvisation, which means frequent missteps along with progress.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      Quote Originally Posted by Unelias View Post
      I hardly call a society perfect if it only fulfills peoples basic needs even if basic needs are fulfilled, there will be more advanced needs, which the society will most likely prevent from fulfilling. At least in case of some needs.
      I agree. I only thought that we should first define what perfection means as a
      society, but I checked out the OP's post to be sure he didn't already do that.
      His last sentence made it pretty clear that the goals were relatively simple for
      this case.

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      Well for me, definition of perfection needs to be very accurate, since in my mind perfection does not exist.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      How does an idiocracy emerge if not through reliance on technology and an excess of leisure?
      Well how does technology emerge if not through intelligence, reason, advancement, education etc.; the opposite of idiocracy. Things will always strike a balance, so there will always be "idiots" and "smart people", unless things change and people in general get smarter and more educated. Still, I don't know how good things can be if the people around you aren't sheeple anymore, things would definitely change.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bonsay View Post
      Well how does technology emerge if not through intelligence, reason, advancement, education etc.; the opposite of idiocracy. Things will always strike a balance, so there will always be "idiots" and "smart people", unless things change and people in general get smarter and more educated. Still, I don't know how good things can be if the people around you aren't sheeple anymore, things would definitely change.
      I don't think Idiocracy can happen, any more than a technotopia. I'm just saying that if we could eliminate most or all of our needs and limitations via technology, or establish a utopia of any other sort, then there's nowhere to go but down.

      We don't want to live forever.

      We don't want a life of leisure.

      Be careful what you wish for.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      a number of cultures have already passed through 'golden ages' in which people were in harmony with nature and with each other (though they may have been relatively short lived). my perfect society would be more like one of these than one that puts so much emphasis on material development.

      to me, the reverse of such an earth-centered society would be a technopoly, something we always seem to be moving toward - which frightens me a bit. it bothers me when people think that technology will solve our problems, and as Invader and Taosaur already said, technology is not inherently good or bad but is most definitely responsible for a lot of damage.

      so i guess my point is that there will never be a 'perfect' society without nature, and we're responsible for this moving out of reach. our world is so incredibly anthropocentric - i'm sometimes nauseated by how unnatural most landscapes are... how the land is so dominated by people and all of their products and thoughts.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
      Precisely. We use technology just as much to cause suffering in the name of whatever cause one wishes to fight for.

      As far as having basic needs met for every individual, it's certainly achievable. A truly balanced justice system would be nice. Let's remove a bank's ability to trick people out of the ownership of
      their homes while we're at it, too. Intolerance based on meaningless differences can go too. That starts with a good education system and responsible parenting.

      Everything you just said there relies on a subjective view of what each of these things is. That is one reason we can never have a perfect society.

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      The sole reason is because we are humans. All the traits we have enable us to create a great society, yet the very same traits prevent us from keeping it long living. Our road will always descend to the chaos and destruction of the society. Nothing lasts forever
      Last edited by Unelias; 10-11-2009 at 08:48 AM.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      All I have to say is that a Utopian world, to me, would be a world without purpose. Maybe I'm some kind of masochist, but I wouldn't want to live in a world devoid of hardship if it meant being a pampered asshole with little or no sense of individuality.
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      You are not masochist. That is normal. Life without challenge or without individuality is not a life. This is how I see it. I'd never sacrifice my personal freedom for a sake of society. That is just how it is.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

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      Seriously, no one found the oddity of my post? We'll never achieve perfection with that level of obliviousness. Oh, well...

      I propose building an army of robots to do all of the mundane chores while simultaneously reducing population and advancing medical and technological sciences. Eventually, disease and social unrest, even death could be cured. Through eugenics, everyone would truly be equal. With robots doing the work and everyone living in luxury, the economy would cease to be relevant, and the nations would merge into one. Designer drugs would become popular, and humans would be able to devote their lives to bettering themselves, the desire induced either through genetics or hypnopaedic suggestion. People would be given the personality traits of Einstein and Jesus, and instead of growing more shallow and bored, would instead grow deeper and more intrigued with life. Certain precautions would be taken to ensure that people don't ultimately begin to look alike, and would retain their individuality.

      ^This is just one possible scenario. Better and more plausible ones probably exist, but this would be *close to* my definition of a perfect society.

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      Who says our society isn't perfect as it is? Sure, we could use a little less war and prejudice, but if everyone was really that upset, things wouldn't be the way they are, would they?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Licity View Post
      Who says our society isn't perfect as it is? Sure, we could use a little less war and prejudice, but if everyone was really that upset, things wouldn't be the way they are, would they?
      Are you kidding?

      Obviously not everyone is upset yet. But I am. And so are the millions of people who have died in war or who had mothers daughters fathers, sisters and brothers die in war. And the millions who are hungry and sarving and worked to the bone for the profit of the WTO and the world bank.

      I am ready for a perfect society. There have been societies in the past that were way better than this modern one. But I am not proposing going back.

      I believe that part of human destiny is to figure out how to create the perfect society. Obviously technology cannot rid us of all suffering. But it can help us to achieve harmony with the environment and have a higher standard of living. But people would also need to free their minds to get rid of ALL suffering.

      We would need an economy based on value, not profit. Google the venus project. We would definately need a global consciousness which is on the way with borders breaking down and people linking on the internet and globalization and a global economy already a reality. All these things as they exist, except the internet, are not so positive right now, but that will change. We need to think of us as us, not us and them. We cannot be a planet of separate peoples fighting over resources and letting the greedy people rule over us and use us like the machines do in the matrix movie.

      We need a democratic anarchy of small self sufficient city state communes that all agree on common freedom. We need to stop breeding out of control. we need to legalize all victimless crimes. Let the machines do the work while we focus on living, loving, making music and art and experimenting. We need to support the scientists so that they don't have to get grants from the government and military so they can invent things that are actually helpful for all life rather than weapons and surveillance technology.

      we need solar, wind and wave energy. We need earth houses that are round or hexagonal. City states should be built hexagonal because that is the shape that allows the easiest transportation from one point to the other in the city and least competition of businesses and easiest and most efficient patrolling of borders, not that we will need to patrol our borders because there will be no illegal aliens.

      I read somewhere that there is a tribe of people in Africa where if someone does something bad or harmful they take him to the center of the village and everyone takes a turn coming up to him and telling him how much they love him and all the cool things he has done in the past and all the cool times they spent together. This goes on for days and is quite emotional. At the end they all have a big party. We won't have prisons becasue there will be no crime. I went to Tokyo last spring and I was surprised that it is a huge f*&cking city but there is virtually no crime. You could walk down any street at any time of day or night all alone if you are a man or a woman and be totally safe. And there is no litter there either. And I only saw one homeless person.

      Everyone would have a nice place to live and nobody would be hungry because the economy would not be based on profit but on value. Like now if there is a surplus of corn the government dumps thousands of tons of corn into the ocean on order to keep prices up. That would not happen in a Utopia.

      Also the root problems of our world is that there are too many f^%cking people! People need to control their desire to have kids. People need to do this voluntarily or else. Even if every woman only had one kid that would help.

      Once the population is balanced people need to voluntarily regulate their breeding so that the population stays in balnce.

      Also, we need to stop being so racist and sexist and bigoted against gays, lesbians and anyone who is different. People are people, for crying out loud. If it helps, everyone should marry someone from a different race so we can get over this bigotry.

      Also, and this is a taboo subject, but people got to free themselves from organized religion and have a natural, non-dogmatic spirituality be supported as an alternative that is totally relevant to reality and science. Also science needs to recognize the inner worlds of experience so we can rediscover energy medicine, lucid dreaming. People should definately be free to be atheist too of course. Its all about freedom and responsibility.

      I think that society is so not perfect right now. In fact it isn't even sustainable. That is the problem! It cannot keep going like this. It is impossible. Maybe in New Zealand, except for the whole no ozone layer thing going on there.

      Anyway, I think about this al the time and I could go on and talk your ears off forever but I think I'll give it a rest and go to bed.

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      Very well round up, Dannon Oneironaut. Well spoken.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      Are you kidding?

      Obviously not everyone is upset yet. But I am. And so are the millions of people who have died in war or who had mothers daughters fathers, sisters and brothers die in war. And the millions who are hungry and sarving and worked to the bone for the profit of the WTO and the world bank.

      I am ready for a perfect society. There have been societies in the past that were way better than this modern one. But I am not proposing going back.

      I believe that part of human destiny is to figure out how to create the perfect society. Obviously technology cannot rid us of all suffering. But it can help us to achieve harmony with the environment and have a higher standard of living. But people would also need to free their minds to get rid of ALL suffering.

      We would need an economy based on value, not profit. Google the venus project. We would definately need a global consciousness which is on the way with borders breaking down and people linking on the internet and globalization and a global economy already a reality. All these things as they exist, except the internet, are not so positive right now, but that will change. We need to think of us as us, not us and them. We cannot be a planet of separate peoples fighting over resources and letting the greedy people rule over us and use us like the machines do in the matrix movie.

      We need a democratic anarchy of small self sufficient city state communes that all agree on common freedom. We need to stop breeding out of control. we need to legalize all victimless crimes. Let the machines do the work while we focus on living, loving, making music and art and experimenting. We need to support the scientists so that they don't have to get grants from the government and military so they can invent things that are actually helpful for all life rather than weapons and surveillance technology.

      we need solar, wind and wave energy. We need earth houses that are round or hexagonal. City states should be built hexagonal because that is the shape that allows the easiest transportation from one point to the other in the city and least competition of businesses and easiest and most efficient patrolling of borders, not that we will need to patrol our borders because there will be no illegal aliens.

      I read somewhere that there is a tribe of people in Africa where if someone does something bad or harmful they take him to the center of the village and everyone takes a turn coming up to him and telling him how much they love him and all the cool things he has done in the past and all the cool times they spent together. This goes on for days and is quite emotional. At the end they all have a big party. We won't have prisons becasue there will be no crime. I went to Tokyo last spring and I was surprised that it is a huge f*&cking city but there is virtually no crime. You could walk down any street at any time of day or night all alone if you are a man or a woman and be totally safe. And there is no litter there either. And I only saw one homeless person.

      Everyone would have a nice place to live and nobody would be hungry because the economy would not be based on profit but on value. Like now if there is a surplus of corn the government dumps thousands of tons of corn into the ocean on order to keep prices up. That would not happen in a Utopia.

      Also the root problems of our world is that there are too many f^%cking people! People need to control their desire to have kids. People need to do this voluntarily or else. Even if every woman only had one kid that would help.

      Once the population is balanced people need to voluntarily regulate their breeding so that the population stays in balnce.

      Also, we need to stop being so racist and sexist and bigoted against gays, lesbians and anyone who is different. People are people, for crying out loud. If it helps, everyone should marry someone from a different race so we can get over this bigotry.

      Also, and this is a taboo subject, but people got to free themselves from organized religion and have a natural, non-dogmatic spirituality be supported as an alternative that is totally relevant to reality and science. Also science needs to recognize the inner worlds of experience so we can rediscover energy medicine, lucid dreaming. People should definately be free to be atheist too of course. Its all about freedom and responsibility.

      I think that society is so not perfect right now. In fact it isn't even sustainable. That is the problem! It cannot keep going like this. It is impossible. Maybe in New Zealand, except for the whole no ozone layer thing going on there.

      Anyway, I think about this al the time and I could go on and talk your ears off forever but I think I'll give it a rest and go to bed.
      ^I agree with this. Too many people, too many extremists, over-consumption, money=root of all evil, war, famine, startling lack of tolerance, the whole nine yards. So much is wrong, and so much can be fixed. It will HAVE to be fixed, in all reality. There is simply no way we can forge on ahead with our current society in such shambles. We need a wake-up call...

      Click the sig for my Dream Journal
      444 Dreams Recalled
      13 Lucid Dreams

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