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    1. #1
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Free will and determinism

      I believe in free will.

      I also believe in large scale determinism. Specifically, any object for which we can consider quantum uncertainty to be negligible will behave in a deterministic manner. I believe that the brain is such a system, hence deterministic.

      I do not believe that this is a contradiction.

      Discuss. Specifically, what would free will actually mean? Is is possible to have free will without determinism? I don't think so.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    2. #2
      Cosmic Citizen ExoByte's Avatar
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      No, it is not a contradiction.

      At the base level, determinism is one action happened because of another and/or an action ONLY happened because of the previous action. Essentially, the snowball effect.

      Freewill boils down to choice. But many actions could happen because of another.

      For example, a home catches fire. A person calls 911. They did so because of the fire. In another instance the person may have grabbed a fire extinguisher and tried to put it out themselves. A conscious choice between two outcomes, entirely dependent on the previous situation.

      They are absolutely not contradictory.

      And you need a trigger, a cause, or starter effect to have options regarding that effect, or for something else to happen. Without determinism, the world is static. In a static world, choice cannot exist.

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      Wait what? If determinism is true, then free will cannot exist because choices do not exist. There is only a single outcome for any given set of events.

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by ExoByte View Post
      No, it is not a contradiction.

      At the base level, determinism is one action happened because of another and/or an action ONLY happened because of the previous action. Essentially, the snowball effect.

      Freewill boils down to choice. But many actions could happen because of another.

      For example, a home catches fire. A person calls 911. They did so because of the fire. In another instance the person may have grabbed a fire extinguisher and tried to put it out themselves. A conscious choice between two outcomes, entirely dependent on the previous situation.

      They are absolutely not contradictory.

      And you need a trigger, a cause, or starter effect to have options regarding that effect, or for something else to happen. Without determinism, the world is static. In a static world, choice cannot exist.
      Nice point, I briefly discussed my confusion in another thread regarding determinism. Thanks for the clairification.

    5. #5
      Cosmic Citizen ExoByte's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      Wait what? If determinism is true, then free will cannot exist because choices do not exist. There is only a single outcome for any given set of events.
      Wrong. There is a variation of events that could happen, options if you will, that are a result of a catalyst.

      Choice further pushes this by being able to consciously alter the events, but you can only ever do so based on what has already happened and how it has affected everything.

    6. #6
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      I agree that determinism does not contradict free will. The way I always explain it is the following:

      Determinism suggests that every choice we make, we were always going to make; however, you still made the choice.

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      But you didn't. Your actions were determined, not created.

    8. #8
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      So what?

      I can choose to get up right now and get a drink, or I can choose to stay here. That choice is the result of a deterministic process, but what difference does that make? I still choose, and I'm inherently aware that I did choose.

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      But determinism suggests that your decisions are so much decision as reactions. Whatever billions of infinitesimal causes lead to you this instant determines what you will be in the next moment. So how can free will exist?

    10. #10
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      What is free will? As far as I'm concerned it is just the ability to choose. We have that ability, so we have free will. There is no conflict with determinism.

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      Maybe if by free will you mean the ability of limited foresight in that you can figure out what you can do in a certain situation and what the immediate effects may be. It's still determined.

    12. #12
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      Maybe if by free will you mean the ability of limited foresight in that you can figure out what you can do in a certain situation and what the immediate effects may be. It's still determined.
      The point is that it's ultimately determined by me though. A different person, in a situation that was precisely the same(*), would make a different choice. I am a choice machine. I make choices. I may do so deterministically but I do it uniquely.

      (*) Of course the situation wouldn't be precisely the same because my body displaces air molecules around me differently than yours does. This is has negligible input to the decision making process so we can disregard it.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

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      No, it is determined by the series events that leads up to, and creates you. You aren't actually deciding anything.

    14. #14
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Just do a quick thought experiment. At the moment when you need to make a decision, teleport yourself out of the situation and someone else into the situation. They make a different decision than you would. Your decisions are your decision and are not dictated by the situation. How is that not free will?
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    15. #15
      Member TimeStopper's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      Just do a quick thought experiment. At the moment when you need to make a decision, teleport yourself out of the situation and someone else into the situation. They make a different decision than you would. Your decisions are your decision and are not dictated by the situation. How is that not free will?
      Because that person had a different mindset which caused him to make the certain action. It's not the same person. Not the same cause. When you make a choice you have to access resources to make the decision, and where do those resources come from?
      "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -Einstein

    16. #16
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by TimeStopper View Post
      Because that person had a different mindset which caused him to make the certain action.
      A different action in response to the exact same stimuli.

      Quote Originally Posted by TimeStopper View Post
      It's not the same person. Not the same cause.
      Precisely. Each person brings their own cause.

      Quote Originally Posted by TimeStopper View Post
      When you make a choice you have to access resources to make the decision, and where do those resources come from?
      I'm not sure what you're getting at here but it smells like homunculunism, that is the idea that "you" are inside your body making choices as opposed to being your body. In which case I'm just going to go ahead and dismiss anything you want to derive from it as being fundamentally uninformed by science. And I don't want to be harsh in saying that either. Please don't take it that way. I've honestly been waiting for A Roxxor to trip up and admit to it. It's a persistent belief that many of us athiests haven't sorted out yet. I believe that the notion of free will not existing depends upon the notion. If you meant something else, please do inform.
      Last edited by PhilosopherStoned; 09-13-2009 at 07:20 AM.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    17. #17
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      No, it is determined by the series events that leads up to, and creates you. You aren't actually deciding anything.
      Only if you consider those events separate from themself.

    18. #18
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      Uh, what?

      No, I am considering them to be a huge cascade of events that is determined. If you teleported yourself out of a situation and someone else into the situation, you are changing the situation because you are a part of it.

    19. #19
      Xei
      UnitedKingdom Xei is offline
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      You were making the point that you're not actually choosing anything, it's just your neurons firing in a deterministic manner. I was making the point that the firing of the neurons is the actual choice.

      Another way of explaining my perspective; determinists often argue that their philosophy renders morality obsolete, because somebody was always going to do something due to the causes and effects which shaped them. I however argue that this is nonsense. Sure, somebody was always going to do a bad thing, but that was because they were always going to make an immoral decision; hence, they should be punished. They made the choice.

    20. #20
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      That pretty much sums it up. You are your body and your mind. So the idea that any choice you make is because you are the person you are, and that some how disproves free will is silly. That is basically saying, if you make a choice based on your personality you didn't have free will. You were forced to by your personality. Obviously that makes no sense.

      Free will isn't the idea of making purely random choices, but being able to make any choice you want. Since your choice isn't random, determinism always apply. However you are not being forced to do anything, you are in total control of the choice.

      You could never predict how a person will act with determinism. You only know that a person will make the same choice if they were in an identical situation. Because a person thoughts are not totally random.

      Free will isn't the ability to make random choices. It is the ability to make a choice on your own.

    21. #21
      Xei
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      Free will isn't the ability to make random choices. It is the ability to make a choice on your own.
      Well stated.

      Roxxor seems to be asking for inherent 'quantum' randomness and freedom from causality... I don't see why that's necessary, or desirable.

      A good question to ask of the fact that everything we do we were always going to do is: so what? What are the human consequences? I can't think of any. It doesn't change how I should live or make choices. So I don't think it's relevant.

    22. #22
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      No, I am considering them to be a huge cascade of events that is determined. If you teleported yourself out of a situation and someone else into the situation, you are changing the situation because you are a part of it.
      It's only a different situation though because there is a different choice maker involved. Everything else is identical. This demonstrates that anything about the situation is superfluous to what decision gets made.

      To deterministically trace the choice to a cause that lays outside of you, you have to go back to your conception. So it seems that for you, free will would be the ability to decide to be somebody else.

      On the contrary, it's not that determinism rules out free will but that determinism makes free will meaningful in the first place.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

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      No, it is a different situation because the person is different, which directly affects everything around them. Determinism says that all of the events and processes at base are what form the universe, and that everything else is an arbitrary way of grouping events together to make the universe manageable for a thinking entity. Or at least, that's what I say. Nothing is chosen because nothing is random, there is only one possible outcome for a given event. The chance of what outcome that will be is called probability.

    24. #24
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      No, it is a different situation because the person is different, which directly affects everything around them.
      I'm saying that it's a different situation because the person is different. What does it directly affect around them? The only change that I see as being significant to the decision that is made is the person making the decision.

      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      Determinism says that all of the events and processes at base are what form the universe, and that everything else is an arbitrary way of grouping events together to make the universe manageable for a thinking entity. Or at least, that's what I say. Nothing is chosen because nothing is random, there is only one possible outcome for a given event. The chance of what outcome that will be is called probability.
      Granted. I like that definition. But again, I fail to see how it conflicts with free will. You were always going to be you and you were always going to make your choice. You are still choosing though because you are you and you cannot be anyone but you. I don't see how randomness even comes into it at all.
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      No, it is a different situation because the person is different, which directly affects everything around them.
      Exactly. Each person has the ability to affect everything around them in different ways. That is what free will is.

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